I must say that as an average OpenSuse user I am kind of lost in all that repos around. My first Linux distro was Gentoo and although OpenSuse is much easier to manage - most things just work out-of-the box, one thing was much better in Gentoo and it was Portage. One repository for everything. Once I knew the name of software, I typed emerge ‘that software’ and I was done (of course, compiling took some time, but that’s another thing ). Problem with OpenSuse is that almost nothing is in the default repositories so I have to open Firefox and look for the software manually. Of course, the on-click-install feature is very nice, but when you think about it, what’s the difference between Windows and OpenSuse then? Another funny thing is that recently it seems to me, that every app I install needs its own repository. So my system is crowded with repositories which I will most probably never need again. Wouldn’t be better to merge all this repositories to one or two? Let say stable and unstable? Especially when the names are almost the same - just look for example at KDE:/Extra - there are Distro Factory, Unstable SC, Factory, Factory Unstable SC. And all of them has the same description. I’m sure there is a reason why they are not together, but I can’t see it.
So to conclude… what am I missing? What’s the standard procedure of installing software if I want to do it comfortably and avoid all this mess around?
Problem with OpenSuse is that almost nothing is in the default repositories
You have to be kidding
Of course, the on-click-install feature is very nice, but when you think about it, what’s the difference between Windows and OpenSuse then?
You have to be kidding
With just the default +Packman most folks have more than enough
Perhaps you have some special needs?
the basic four repos talked about in the paragraph beginning with
“IMPORTANT:” provide over 90% of my needs, and i’d guess over 95% of
the needs of new to Linux users…
your need maybe different, but i think the suggestion to only have four
repos normally enable is a very good thing…
my technique (which has proven to be a pretty good way to NOT
introduce conflicting software) is to have those four enabled (in YaST >
Software Repositories) and always when seeking to install a new
package is to search in YaST > Software Management…if that search
finds nothing then i use http://software.opensuse.org/search being
careful to spin the version number to match what i’m using and always read the repo names of where packages come from, and i never install
from any repo with these terms in the name: factory, playground,
unstable, tumbleweed, evergreen
and during a “1-Click” install i will allow it to add and keep the
repo but will immediately after the install use YaST > Software
Repositories to disable and stop automatic updating…
if you don’t want to have to remember to disable, then during the
install LOOK for the easy way to not allow the repo to remain on your
list of repos…
with a background in other distros, perhaps there are out ‘concepts’
which are different in openSUSE which you should read and think about,
here: http://en.opensuse.org/Concepts
Well maybe I little exaggerated but definitely there are plenty of essential packages which are not in default repositories. For example (nvidia) graphic drivers, everyone needs them, why are they separated? I recently installed a Google Talk plugin into Firefox… and I have one more extra repo only for this one app. Can’t Google add it to some other existing repo? And what about all those nice KDE app from kde-apps.org. Today I was trying to install subtitlecomposer - look at this: software.opensuse.org: Vyhledat podrobnosti Why is this app in four different repos with almost the same names? Which one should I choose? Suse is mainly KDE distro so I think it’s safe to assume that Suse user will use KDE software. So it would be only logical to put this perfectly working software among other standard KDE software so that I could just type zypper in subtitlecomposer and be happy? If there are some licensing problems or problems with organization, there must be a way how to solve them because all these packages are included in Portage.
And about that thing with Windows… no doubt there are still many differences, especially when it comes to security and all that stuff. But the reason, why I started using Linux, was the simplicity of installing software in Gentoo, just emerge firefox, emerge nvidia-drivers, emerge subtitlecomposer… and I really miss that. Because what do I have to do now? First I have to find the package at software.opensuse.org, then choose the most promising version/repo, then hit one-click-install, then next, next, yes, yes, I agree, next, then enter my root password and again next, next, next, finish. It definitely looks like Windows And using commandline isn’t much faster - I have to copy the url of the repo, paste it into terminal, add repo, update repo and only then that I can type the dreamed command zypper in package. I assume that if I installed many apps on daily basis, I would build my ‘set of favorite repos’ and everything would be much smoother, but now, when I install something every two months, it’s really exhausting and puts me off.
I’m sorry if my post is a little bit offensive I just don’t understand some of these things and I really would like the explanation from some real OpenSuse guru
Thank you for describing your technique, I try to stick with it… but to be hones, I still think that reducing the number of repos to minimum would significantly reduce the number of words with ** and __ in your post It’s like walking in the jungle - you always have to be careful, you never know what jumps out of the woods
Now seriously, I don’t understand why I have 10 instead of described three default repos. Look at that (sorry about the czech language):
11 | openSUSE-11.4-11.4-0 | openSUSE-11.4-11.4-0 | Ano | Ne
12 | openSUSE-11.4-Non-Oss | openSUSE-11.4-Non-Oss | Ano | Ano
13 | openSUSE-11.4-Oss | openSUSE-11.4-Oss | Ano | Ano
14 | openSUSE-11.4-Update | openSUSE-11.4-Update | Ano | Ano
15 | repo-debug | openSUSE-11.4-Debug | Ne | Ano
16 | repo-debug-update | openSUSE-11.4-Update-Debug | Ne | Ano
17 | repo-non-oss | openSUSE-11.4-Non-Oss | Ano | Ano
18 | repo-oss | openSUSE-11.4-Oss | Ano | Ano
19 | repo-source | openSUSE-11.4-Source | Ne | Ano
20 | repo-update | openSUSE-11.4-Update | Ano | Ano
You appear to have most of them twice, under different names… Just delete the duplicates under less descriptive names (ie everything below 14, you don’t need the debug ones either).
If you compare Suse with other big distributions, openSUSE is imho the one which pays the most attention to KDE. Kubuntu, Mandriva, Fedora… they use more or less the upstream version of KDE. Only openSuse is really trying to integrate not Qt apps (Firefox, Gimp, LibreOffice) into the environment so they don’t look alien. It also provides it’s own Plasma theme to look different. And generally my personal feeling is that KDE runs smoother on Suse than on other distros. So that’s why I assumed that Suse is mainly KDE distribution, but I could be wrong, I don’t intend to argue about that (no flame) But still it’s not a reason why Subtitle Composer and other cool KDE (or Gnome) apps are not included in one big repo.
You appear to have most of them twice, under different names… Just delete the duplicates under less descriptive names (ie everything below 14, you don’t need the debug ones either).
> Now seriously, I don’t understand why I have 10 instead of described
> three default repos. Look at that (sorry about the czech language):
Use the command like this:
LANG=en_US.UTF-8 zypper whatever
to produce English output.
> Code:
> --------------------
> 11 | openSUSE-11.4-11.4-0 | openSUSE-11.4-11.4-0 | Ano | Ne
> 12 | openSUSE-11.4-Non-Oss | openSUSE-11.4-Non-Oss | Ano | Ano
> 13 | openSUSE-11.4-Oss | openSUSE-11.4-Oss | Ano | Ano
> 14 | openSUSE-11.4-Update | openSUSE-11.4-Update | Ano | Ano
> 15 | repo-debug | openSUSE-11.4-Debug | Ne | Ano
> 16 | repo-debug-update | openSUSE-11.4-Update-Debug | Ne | Ano
> 17 | repo-non-oss | openSUSE-11.4-Non-Oss | Ano | Ano
> 18 | repo-oss | openSUSE-11.4-Oss | Ano | Ano
> 19 | repo-source | openSUSE-11.4-Source | Ne | Ano
> 20 | repo-update | openSUSE-11.4-Update | Ano | Ano
> --------------------
>
>
> What would you recommend to delete?
“Ne” is “no”? Then the list is OK, except 11 and 18 are duplicates, 12 and
17, 13 and 18, and 14 and 20. So, delete 11, 12, 13, and 14.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
On 2011-06-30 14:06, tobice wrote:
>
> Well maybe I little exaggerated but definitely there are plenty of
> essential packages which are not in default repositories. For example
> (nvidia) graphic drivers, everyone needs them, why are they separated?
Forbidden by licensing rules.
> I
> recently installed a Google Talk plugin into Firefox… and I have one
> more extra repo only for this one app.
Same thing.
> Can’t Google add it to some other
> existing repo?
Ask them!
> And what about all those nice KDE app from kde-apps.org.
> Today I was trying to install subtitlecomposer - look at this:
> ‘software.opensuse.org: Vyhledat podrobnosti’
> (http://tinyurl.com/6dla2pk) Why is this app in four different repos
> with almost the same names? Which one should I choose?
Those are home repos. Not to be used unless the owner tells you, they could
be experiments.
> Suse is mainly
> KDE distro
Not true!
>so I think it’s safe to assume that Suse user will use KDE
> software. So it would be only logical to put this perfectly working
> software among other standard KDE software so that I could just type
> zypper in subtitlecomposer and be happy?
Well, if a maintainer for that packages goes forward and takes
responsibility, it will be in a main repo.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
As I wrote before, nvidia-drivers are included into Portage, so the licensing rules are not that restrictive I guess… I don’t know the technical differences between Suse repos and Portage, but since it is possible in Portage, it should be in Suse as well.
Those are home repos. Not to be used unless the owner tells you, they could
be experiments.
Well it’s nice they’re home repos but the result is that software.opensuse.org is flooded with useless and possibly dangerous links. How am I supposed to know which one is actually safe?
Never mind, thanks guys for the answers you gave, maybe next time I’ll manage to keep my system clean.
> So that’s why I
> assumed that Suse is mainly KDE distribution, but I could be wrong, I
> don’t intend to argue about that (no flame)
One thing is to take care that a desktop is setup as good as can be,
another to assume it is the main one. There is no main one.
There is only KDE chosen as default when you install, which is quite different.
> But still it’s not a
> reason why Subtitle Composer and other cool KDE (or Gnome) apps are not
> included in one big repo.
Because such “minority” apps needs a maintainer to go forward and say “I
will provide packages for the entire life of the version”. Then it goes
into factory, if approved.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
tobice wrote:
> As I wrote before, nvidia-drivers are included into Portage, so the
> licensing rules are not that restrictive I guess… I don’t know the
> technical differences between Suse repos and Portage, but since it is
> possible in Portage, it should be in Suse as well.
Right, so you haven’t bothered to investigate the facts. Instead you
think it’s acceptable to spam us all with your personal wishlist.
On 06/30/2011 02:06 PM, tobice wrote:
>
> It’s like walking in the jungle - you always have to be careful,
> you never know what jumps out of the woods
did someone tell you that being a Linux System Administrator is easy? or
that you don’t need to know what you are doing to maintain a healthy,
dependable and secure Linux system?
for that matter, did someone tell you that being a Windows System
Administrator is easy? or that you don’t need to know what you are doing
to have the slightest chance of maintain a healthy, dependable and
secure Windows system? [Mac, i don’t know…i’ve not used one, but i
think it is probably the system which requires the least
users/administrator knowledge to keep humming along securely–but, you
pay a stiff price for that luxury of ignorance…]
it is a faulty concept that a normal mom/pop/brother/sister home user
can plug in a machine, not read the user manual, and happily use the
machine securely and dependably until plastic/metal case falls apart
from use (just like the way the phones of the last century)
YES, “you always have to be careful” (even when running Linux) because
“you never know what jumps out of the woods”…
luckily for us, what jumps out is very seldom thieves cracking their way
in to steal our bank account numbers and log on credentials…but, that
does not keep us from poisoning our machine through not following
sound administration practices and introducing code which will not mesh
with all the other on the machine…
On 06/30/2011 04:03 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2011-06-30 14:06, tobice wrote:
>
>> I don’t understand why I have 10 instead of described
>> three default repos.
you have ten because you used 1-Click installs and elected to allow the
repos be added to you system (i wrote about that: if you allow them to
be added you must disable them after the 1-Click install is complete or elect to not allow them to remain listed after install)
>> --------------------
>> 11 | openSUSE-11.4-11.4-0 | openSUSE-11.4-11.4-0 | Ano | Ne
>> 12 | openSUSE-11.4-Non-Oss | openSUSE-11.4-Non-Oss | Ano | Ano
so, what happened to repos one through ten? what are they??
>>
>> What would you recommend to delete?
>
> “Ne” is “no”? Then the list is OK, except 11 and 18 are duplicates, 12 and
> 17, 13 and 18, and 14 and 20. So, delete 11, 12, 13, and 14.
agree, and add packman to be the fourth of the basic four…
@djh-novell: I am sorry if my messages look like spam. I was just trying to point out the fact, that nvidia-drivers are included in Gentoo Portage (I did verify that) whereas they are not included in default OpenSUSE repos. So if there are any obstacles, legal or technical, Gentoo developers found some some solution, so the OpenSUSE developers should be able to do the same. It seems to me pretty logical and I don’t think I have to know the technical details (how repos and Portage work inside) to claim that. Luckily, malcolmlewis gave me the answer why is that so, so thank you for that, malcolmlewis
This IS actually my whishlist but naturally I don’t expect that someone will immediately start implementing that. I started this thread because I wanted to understand why is that made this way so that I won’t get bad mood next time I try to install something more special. Understanding makes me able to deal with things. So is that so wrong to ask?
@DenverD: no, nobody told me that being an administrator is easy, I understand that. But it doesn’t mean that being a user shouldn’t be as easy as possible. Gentoo isn’t a very user-friendly distro, that’s why I decided to switch to Suse, but I still think that Portage - that means one big repository - is a better solution than many smaller. As far as I remember, I didn’t have to worry about what I am installing from Portage. I didn’t have to check versions and what repo is being added and all that stuff you’re describing. Naturally, when I started experimenting with unstable versions it went wrong very fast Today, when I wanted to install a simple software to edit some subtitles, I was put into situation, when I had to choose between 4 repos and I had no idea which one to choose since they looked almost the same. In other words, I was put into situation when I could most likely “damage” my system. I’m not saying that opensuse is bad because of that, it’s a really little thing, but you have to admit, that typing “emerge subtitlecomposer” is faster, more comfortable and in a way also more secure. That’s my whole point
About my repos… naturally repos 1 to 10 are there and Packman is among them The others are some KDE stuff which most probably came from the ‘one-click-install’. Then nvidia repos, something from google, something for media. I will keep them since everything is now working and I don’t want to break it. But I will be more careful when using ‘one-click-install’ next time.
On 2011-06-30 12:06, tobice wrote:
> So to conclude… what am I missing? What’s the standard procedure of
> installing software if I want to do it comfortably and avoid all this
> mess around?
Most of us only use oss, non-oss, updates, and packman. Sometimes, some
extras. Some people like to have the latest KDE or GNome, so they add the
corresponding repos. Or you may want the latest mozilla, or the latest
libreoffice.
Having all those things on the same repo would be madness.
As you are new, say what you want to install, and ask.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
On 07/01/2011 12:36 AM, tobice wrote:
>
> @djh-novell: I am sorry if my messages look like spam. I was just trying
> to point out the fact, that nvidia-drivers are included in Gentoo
> Portage (I did verify that) whereas they are not included in default
> OpenSUSE repos. So if there are any obstacles, legal or technical,
> Gentoo developers found some some solution, so the OpenSUSE developers
> should be able to do the same. It seems to me pretty logical
ok, here is the deal: there is no openPortage, or openGentoo, or
openUbuntu…but there is an openSUSE, and that “open” part in the
openSUSE name means there is only open source software contained in
openSUSE…
there are no, and there will be no, non-open software shipped with
openSUSE…and, the non-open software won’t be in the openSUSE repo…
nVidia’s software is in nVidia’s repos, Googles in theirs, ATI’s in
theirs, Adobe’s in theirs…and, anything that might be questionable
is not in openSUSE’s repos…
isn’t it nice that somehow packman has most of the questionable stuff
that fits in well with openSUSE…
none of that is likely to change anytime soon, no matter how often you
try to explain that it is possible to include everything you want and
need in one big repo…it won’t be happen until and unless the folks who
include it can’t possibly be sued for that…
see, the deal is that Portage/Gentoo/Ubuntu and most of the others have
no money…so, why sue them…on the other hand Novell, and now
Attachmate has money…
). Problem with OpenSuse is that almost nothing is in the default repositories so I have to open Firefox and look for the software manually. Of course, the on-click-install feature is very nice, but when you think about it, what’s the difference between Windows and OpenSuse then? Another funny thing is that recently it seems to me, that every app I install needs its own repository. So my system is crowded with repositories which I will most probably never need again. Wouldn’t be better to merge all this repositories to one or two? Let say stable and unstable? Especially when the names are almost the same - just look for example at KDE:/Extra - there are Distro Factory, Unstable SC, Factory, Factory Unstable SC. And all of them has the same description. I’m sure there is a reason why they are not together, but I can’t see it.
And using commandline isn’t much faster - I have to copy the url of the repo, paste it into terminal, add repo, update repo and only then that I can type the dreamed command zypper in package. I assume that if I installed many apps on daily basis, I would build my ‘set of favorite repos’ and everything would be much smoother, but now, when I install something every two months, it’s really exhausting and puts me off.
But still it’s not a reason why Subtitle Composer and other cool KDE (or Gnome) apps are not included in one big repo.