DenverD wrote:
> ok, here is the deal: there is no openPortage, or openGentoo, or
> openUbuntu…but there is an openSUSE, and that “open” part in the
> openSUSE name means there is only open source software contained in
> openSUSE…
>
In fact Gentoo is here the exception not the rule. Other distros have a
similar philosophy like openSUSE when it comes to proprietary software, in
Debian, in Fedora even in Ubuntu (just to name a few I know) the nvidia
driver for example is not included in one big repository which contains
everything, but there is a thorough distinction in that these drivers are
only available from extra repositories for the non free software. Free
multimedia software with questionable legal status (at least in some
countries) is also only available from extra repositories (the difference in
ubuntu is that they are enabled by default).
So what I want to say is that there is a common convention across the major
distros not to mix this (free software vs. non free and also free but with
questionable legal status) but to separate them. Some distros like ubuntu
hide this to the user.
–
PC: oS 11.3 64 bit | Intel Core2 Quad Q8300@2.50GHz | KDE 4.6.4 | GeForce
9600 GT | 4GB Ram
Eee PC 1201n: oS 11.4 64 bit | Intel Atom 330@1.60GHz | KDE 4.6.4 | nVidia
ION | 3GB Ram
I’m with the OP on this, there is a real difference in the quantity of software available in the set of 4 recommended Opnesuse repos (oss, non-oss, updates and packman) and that available on an Ubuntu or Fedora system. You do find yourself having to add other repos to get stuff, and the whole process of adding a repo, installing something and then disabling that repo again is clumsy, unintuitive and error-prone for the average user.
The issue is not that closed-source/proprietary software should be chucked into the main repo, it’s that there should be one repo that contains all this closed-source stuff not a separate repo for ATI, Nvidia, Adobe etc. The non-oss repo is part way there but not quite.
More importantly though on the open-source side there seems be a disconnect between what gets into the development repos and what gets fed into factory, and therefore the oss repo. It seems completely random what ends up in factory/oss and what doesn’t. For example when I was looking to download my email to my local machine for archiving I found that fetchmail was in oss whereas getmail was only in the development project.
Finally a lot of people have written long spiels on this thread about how the OP should manage his machine properly. While in general that’s true this whole juggling of multiple repos shouldn’t be necessary - it isn’t necessary on Ubuntu and other popular distros. It’s also hardly the average user’s fault that they end up with tons of repos enabled since that’s the result of the one-click installation system, which is specifically designed to be used by average users.
No. I don’t use one-click installs myself so I haven’t altered any of the one-click install settings or anything on this installation. A quick test at software.opensuse.org and the YAST installation dialog came up with ‘keep the repos after the install’ option enabled by default.
But even if it was disabled by default it’s still a poor system. You’re installing software out of devel repos - that’s what all those ‘extra’ repos really are. That means the version you get could be buggy and you won’t receive updates to it unless you keep the repo enabled.
A far better system is to feed everything from the devel repos into factory/oss (the main repo). That way users receive a version of each program that was tested during the factory testing/alpha/beta/rc process leading up to the release and is frozen for the life of the release. And if there are bug and security updates they come through the normal update repo.
> The issue is not that closed-source/proprietary software should be
> chucked into the main repo, it’s that there should be one repo that
> contains all this closed-source stuff not a separate repo for ATI,
> Nvidia, Adobe etc. The non-oss repo is part way there but not quite.
Impossible. As simple as that.
You want it? Ask “them”. Or better: read the mail list archive.
> More importantly though on the open-source side there seems be a
> disconnect between what gets into the development repos and what gets
> fed into factory, and therefore the oss repo. It seems completely random
> what ends up in factory/oss and what doesn’t. For example when I was
> looking to download my email to my local machine for archiving I found
> that fetchmail was in oss whereas getmail was only in the development
> project.
Simple: get somebody to say: "Yes, I will maintain it for the whole life of
the distro, almost two years. When you get that commitment from somebody, a
package can get into factory as an official package. No mantainer, no go.
> Finally a lot of people have written long spiels on this thread about
> how the OP should manage his machine properly. While in general that’s
openSUSE is as it is. Know it. Live with it.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
Other distros seem to manage it, but ok software license legal stuff is a minefield.
Simple: get somebody to say: "Yes, I will maintain it for the whole life of
the distro, almost two years. When you get that commitment from somebody, a
package can get into factory as an official package. No mantainer, no go.
Sticking to my example from before: where’s the documented commitment from the guy who does the fetchmail packages that he’s the official maintainer for 2 years? And how is it any different from the getmail package, which has also been regularly updated but is only in a devel project?
There seems to be no difference between packages submitted to a devel project and ones that actually get into factory. The devel package packages are updated and maintained, and some random subset is then chosen to go into factory. Then users who need one of those packages that didn’t happen to go into factory add devel projects using one-click installs and get their systems into a mess.
openSUSE is as it is. Know it. Live with it.
It’s a computer software project, not a religion set in stone, it can and should be improved when possible.
> Other distros seem to manage it, but ok software license legal stuff is
> a minefield.
Reasons already explained.
> Sticking to my example from before: where’s the documented commitment
> from the guy who does the fetchmail packages that he’s the official
> maintainer for 2 years?
Ask Coolo.
> And how is it any different from the getmail
> package, which has also been regularly updated but is only in a devel
> project?
No official commitment. Or he has not asked. If you want to add something
to factory that is not already there, and the people that are doing it do
not want to add it themselves, then you have to make the commitment yourself.
You don’t believe me? Go and read the factory and project mail lists.
> It’s a computer software project, not a religion set in stone, it can
> and should be improved when possible.
Make a proposal, make a commitment. Not to us.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
On 07/02/2011 01:06 PM, tk83 wrote:
>
> The issue is not that closed-source/proprietary software should be
> chucked into the main repo, it’s that there should be one repo that
> contains all this closed-source stuff not a separate repo for ATI,
> Nvidia, Adobe etc.
suggest you write to ATI, Nvidia, Adobe, Google, Red Hat,
Attachmate/Novell, IBM, Oracle, Massive and all the others who have
closed source or Linux software for sale, and ask them to put all of
theirs together in one place for you, and all of us…
> A far better system is to feed everything from the devel repos into
> factory/oss (the main repo).
Someone needs to volunteer to maintain the extra packages. If there are
packages you want to see in the repos, you might volunteer to be the
maintainer.