What is the proper way to "upgrade" with a clean install?

I came from Windows 98 and would have continued using it, but soon found any upgrades to my existing software said it didn’t support Windows 98 anymore. I considered upgrading to Vista, but after reading their Terms Of Spying (TOS), I decided to check out Linux. I had some problems with understanding the new concepts, but have made some progress. I’m well pleased for the most part. Just having some issues I hope to get worked out.

I have upgraded from 11.1 to 11.2 and found a number of issues. Some of the biggest was mysock , which the preinstall said it would be moved to a different folder, but didn’t. I think I ended up modifying php.ini to point to the old folder. Some of the comments were that the upgrade does not always go cleanly and that’s why they always do a clean install. This also enables you to check out the new system and still be able to use the old while working out any issues.

I’ve obtained 11.3 many months ago, found it works great with my ATI card and so don’t expect having to go through all the trouble of compiling things to get the system to work as I did with the previous two versions. Still, I need to use my system and don’t want down time while fiddling with it. And, since there seem to be significant changes, I’m worried a regular upgrade may not upgrade everything let alone fixed the problems from before.

I have several partitions. Which the upgrade to 11.2 had a problem with and I had to do something with follow hard symbol links before upgrading. I spent a lot of time before 11.1 trying to decide how many partitions to use and then it seemed like it caused problems. So, now I don’t know what I should have, but it’s looking like I need another set for the new system. I’m thinking you have a current set, a new set, and then when it works, you switch over and the old set becomes the next new set. Needing some help here knowing what I should have for partitions and the general idea of how to use them to install/upgrade and switch over.

Maybe another issue, but directly connected is how do I get my software and user data switched over or upgraded. I see in my home directory (separate partition), there is .kde and .kde4 and believe there are some leftover things that are interfering. For instance, I can’t run dolphin in superuser mode most times and if it does work, it takes a long time. Typing things like kdesu kwrite also takes a long time to come up. I used another drive to look at 11.3 and superuser mode comes up right away. How do I clean out all the dot things without losing user settings of relevant software I’m going to be using on the new system?

I’ve also installed software that looked good from the list, but sometimes nothing is installed on the menu. Looking at the YAST file list, I see commands that can be executed from the command line (though I’ve been cautioned that’s not always a good thing to do). Some commands are useful, but some are forgotten. How do I know what software I’ve installed versus what is part of 11.2 or 11.3 so I can make sure I install it on the new system too.

A more relevant example is mysql. I can think of it now, but what if there are things that are necessary which I don’t think of? Do I wait until error messages to know I need them or is there some way to get everything ready ahead of time without installing software of 11.2 which I may never have used and isn’t on 11.3? In Windows, I used an install software which kept track of what I installed. Is there something for Linux?

Thanks for any help

Hello dt30, you are putting forth a whole bunch of separate issues into a single request for help, which may not get everything you want to know answered. So, lets try to look at the biggest issues as I see them.

  1. openSUSE 11.3 clean install or Upgrade?

  2. Partitioning of your hard drives?

  3. Maintaining a separate /home partition?

  4. What action should you take now if you had openSUSE 11.2 installed and working?

All listed subjects above are subject to opinion and so this message would contain mine, which may not be shared by others.

  1. My opinion is to always do a clean install IF, you have maintained a separate /home partition. This produces the best installation result. You must reload all applications that you added, but all of your settings will be maintained and will show up again when you reload each added application.

  2. Partitioning is really subject to personnel tastes, put the fewer the partitions the better in my opinion. If you want to try out more than two OS’s, why not have a second hard drive? The real question is what do you want to end up with? I try to stick with four or less partitions with six being my max, which requires a logical partition. For booting I prefer using a generic MBR and placing grub into partitions 1, 2, 3 or 4, as determined by the location of the main openSUSE partition.

  3. You should always maintain a separate /home partition. You need to be crazy not to realize this fact. It permits most software to be cleanly installed even as you maintain all of your old settings. It is the only way to fly.

  4. Well, right now a couple of things are going on, but the main fact is that shortly next year, openSUSE 11.4 will be coming out. It is my thoughts that if openSUSE 11.2 is working, why not wait for the next major upgrade of openSUSE? Of course, I did load openSUSE 11.3, but I did so when it first came out. There is nothing wrong with openSUSE 11.2, it is still support right now.

OK, that is my responses. You didn’t think you would get the meaning of life on the first go around did you?

Thank You,

I stopped doing upgrades some time ago because they took longer than doing a fresh install, particularly after having a separate /home partition made everything easier. The main issues with doing a fresh install are backing up anything like changes to files in /etc and mysql databases and reinstalling programs which are not installed by default but when I did that to install 11.3, it took 90 minutes from start to finish.

Of course Greg Kroah-Hartmann has proposed developing a rolling version of openSUSE which would upgrade continuously starting with 11.4; so this issue may eventually disappear for many people.

On 2010-12-15 09:36, john hudson wrote:

> Of course Greg Kroah-Hartmann has proposed developing a rolling version
> of openSUSE which would upgrade continuously starting with 11.4; so this
> issue may eventually disappear for many people.

Not really, you are doing upgrades all the time, compared to about once a
year. More chances to break things >:-)


Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 “Emerald” at Telcontar)

On 2010-12-15 02:06, dt30 wrote:

> I have upgraded from 11.1 to 11.2 and found a number of issues.

I have, more or less, updated my systems since 5.2 up to 11.2. I’m
pro-upgrades :slight_smile:

You simply have a different set of issues compared to new installs. There
are some advantages and some disadvantages.

The DVD upgrade to 11.2, for example, has the problem that it
fails to use external repos, and so packages not in the DVD are
not upgraded.

Another posibility is alternating installs. You have 11.2 in one partition,
and install 11.3 in another. You boot 11.3 and copy over the things you
need to have the same services. This takes some time, and you still have
the previous system if it is not possible. Next round, you install fresh
1.4 on top of 11.2.

About the partitions… I can’t judge without specifics. With the above
scenario, data partitions are not usually migrated, simply reused.

> Typing things like kdesu kwrite also takes a long time to come up.

Using sudo for X apps is not recommended - contrary to what most people
here believe :slight_smile:

It is preferable, IMO, to do “su -” in a terminal. On the other hand, I
have never felt the need to use tools such as kwrite as superuser.

You can move aside (rename) the .kde* directories and recreate the
settings. Tools should start to work again. Mail would have to be moved over.

> How do I know what
> software I’ve installed versus what is part of 11.2 or 11.3 so I can
> make sure I install it on the new system too.

It is possible to produce a list of what is installed, when, and where from.

Study this - man rpm:

Code:

rpm -q -a --queryformat "%{INSTALLTIME};%{INSTALLTIME:day};
%{BUILDTIME:day}; %{NAME};%{VERSION}-%-7{RELEASE};%{arch};
%{VENDOR};%{PACKAGER};%{DISTRIBUTION};%{DISTTAG}
"
| sort | cut --fields=“2-” --delimiter=;
| tee rpmlist.csv | less -S

or

rpm -q -a --queryformat "%{INSTALLTIME} %{INSTALLTIME:day}
%{BUILDTIME:day} %-30{NAME} %15{VERSION}-%-7{RELEASE} %{arch}
%25{VENDOR}%25{PACKAGER} == %{DISTRIBUTION} %{DISTTAG}
"
| sort | cut --fields=“2-” > rpmlist

> A more relevant example is mysql. I can think of it now, but what if
> there are things that are necessary which I don’t think of? Do I wait
> until error messages to know I need them or is there some way to get
> everything ready ahead of time without installing software of 11.2 which
> I may never have used and isn’t on 11.3? In Windows, I used an install
> software which kept track of what I installed. Is there something for
> Linux?

A notebook >;-)


Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 “Emerald” at Telcontar)

Yeah, maybe too many questions but I see them all connected. Of course I suppose I don’t have to ask them all at once. Creating a separate home partition was something that was very impressed upon me. Guess I’m not completely crazy

I have a second disk but it’s smaller, slower, and older so don’t really want to use it. So I’d like to know best how to partition for two sets of operating systems.

I have boot, swap, root, var, usr, and home partitions. I’m thinking I may not need this and it may make things more difficult. The boot was recommended at one size but 11.2 needed more so I had to worry about messing things up enlarging it. Not sure if it can’t be part of the root. I’d like to hear the reasons why the need of any certain partion so I can understand if I need it. But I do understand the need for home!

  1. Well, right now a couple of things are going on, but the main fact is that shortly next year, openSUSE 11.4 will be coming out. It is my thoughts that if openSUSE 11.2 is working, why not wait for the next major upgrade of openSUSE? Of course, I did load openSUSE 11.3, but I did so when it first came out. There is nothing wrong with openSUSE 11.2, it is still support right now.

OK, that is my responses. You didn’t think you would get the meaning of life on the first go around did you?

Aw, was hoping for all the answers in one word or less.

I see a reason for using 11.3 now instead of waiting for 11.4 is
…practice!

That may be why I thought I’d better get on this after putting it off for all these months. I want to run through the process so future upgrades go easy…easier?

/etc has lots of items in it, how do I know what the changes are and how do I merge them to the new system? For instance, if I modifed php.ini, then that would be a change, but if any new version adds new options, I couldn’t just copy it over. I would expect a number of similar issues. Though now, I understand for the apache recommendation against inserting virtual hosts or other changes into the main configuration files rather than creating a separate file. It’d be easy to copy one file over. What process do you use to get the /etc changes over. With the mysql databases, to you export and then import them?

Unless you are doing special things you don’t need var, usr, or boot. A separate boot can come in handy for multi boot situation but a normal desktop install does not need it. Just swap,root and home. I have a separate partition used for VMs mounted in root as /vm. If you keep any databases like mysql Oracle or a web site a separate partition for the data keeps it safe (if you select not to format it) from new installs or even changes of distro.

I have boot, swap, root, var, usr, and home partitions. I’m thinking I may not need this and it may make things more difficult. The boot was recommended at one size but 11.2 needed more so I had to worry about messing things up enlarging it. Not sure if it can’t be part of the root. I’d like to hear the reasons why the need of any certain partion so I can understand if I need it. But I do understand the need for home!
Just an added thought here as a comment to your statement above. I really do not think it helps to separate out these other folders for a typical home system. For servers, one might make a case, but for any other case, it just complicates your setup. Think using the KISS system for partitions, the fewer the better.

Also, you got several other good suggestions here. Please read and consider them all.

Thank You,

Yes, alternate installs sounds good to me. Maybe if I didn’t use some things like mysql, upgrades would be better, but with the my.sock not being upgraded properly, I’m concerned with other things not going well. It took me a long time to figure it out and there was no solution offered for fixing it. It could also be something weird I did not knowing what I was doing on the first install and then it propagates or stays in the system. A clean install should fix anything like that. I’m also concerned about clutter accumulating in the system directories and my home directories. I don’t even know if I need the .kde folder anymore and who knows what others.

How would you recommend partitions for alternating? If I have use than four, I saw something about needing a boot or swap as a physical partition rather than logical. Would I need to have both such alternates as two of the first three? When I installed 11.3 on a second drive, it automatically wanted to use my old swap partition. Would that be ok to share swap partitions or would that cause problems. Especially if you save sessions between boots?

Using sudo for X apps is not recommended - contrary to what most people
here believe :slight_smile:

It is preferable, IMO, to do “su -” in a terminal. On the other hand, I
have never felt the need to use tools such as kwrite as superuser.

Even Dolphin as superuser from the menu?
I only needed to use kwrite to look in a file that wouldn’t let me otherwise. Log files, and such.

You can move aside (rename) the .kde* directories and recreate the
settings. Tools should start to work again. Mail would have to be moved over.

Just making sure I understand correctly, move or rename them and the new programs will automatically create them? All programs will? I’m thinking of .kde4/share/apps/*
Then I’ll have to recreate the settings for each program over again?
What about all the other dot directories?

It is possible to produce a list of what is installed, when, and where from.

Study this - man rpm:

Code:

rpm -q -a --queryformat "%{INSTALLTIME};%{INSTALLTIME:day};
%{BUILDTIME:day}; %{NAME};%{VERSION}-%-7{RELEASE};%{arch};
%{VENDOR};%{PACKAGER};%{DISTRIBUTION};%{DISTTAG}
"
| sort | cut --fields=“2-” --delimiter=;
| tee rpmlist.csv | less -S

or

rpm -q -a --queryformat "%{INSTALLTIME} %{INSTALLTIME:day}
%{BUILDTIME:day} %-30{NAME} %15{VERSION}-%-7{RELEASE} %{arch}
%25{VENDOR}%25{PACKAGER} == %{DISTRIBUTION} %{DISTTAG}
"
| sort | cut --fields=“2-” > rpmlist

> A more relevant example is mysql. I can think of it now, but what if
> there are things that are necessary which I don’t think of? Do I wait
> until error messages to know I need them or is there some way to get
> everything ready ahead of time without installing software of 11.2 which
> I may never have used and isn’t on 11.3? In Windows, I used an install
> software which kept track of what I installed. Is there something for
> Linux?

A notebook >;-)

Notebook! Ha, ha. I’ll never find my notebook again, or forget to write in it.

But I do like the rpm options! I had seen something like that before about formatting the output and this is a capability different than what I’ve seen in DOS. Never thought about getting the install time and sorting it. That should work for me adequately, giving me at least some idea of what I have and comparing install times.

As James said, keeping it simple is sounding more like what I’m concluding now. Excepting I’m not just a typical home system but not running any web servers for the outside world. I’m thinking I wasn’t distinguishing the recommendations between servers and home users. Probably not going to run out of logging space.

If I have alternating installs, would I need a multi-boot option? I’m in the process of reading up on booting and grub as I’m having to change my bios to use my old drive for checking out 11.3. Something I’m not understanding about the boot process because I get some error message about bad system id or something on the boot. Don’t know if that requires a separate boot partition on the main drive or only the second. Can the images of two alternating installs be put in the same boot directory/partition? Would that be wise?

Could you explain the idea for the databases? I was only following instructions (random and scattered as I found them) for the partitions and it seemed odd to me how /boot, /var, and /usr would act like they automatically installed in the proper places whether there separate partions or not. I played around with it multiple times since I had no data at the first install. If I create a partition as /usr/share/mysql (or wherever the databases are) would it automatically place only those items there and everything else in the root partition? I would find that amazing, though conceivable.

On 2010-12-17 01:06, dt30 wrote:

> /etc has lots of items in it, how do I know what the changes are and
> how do I merge them to the new system? For instance, if I modifed
> php.ini, then that would be a change, but if any new version adds new
> options, I couldn’t just copy it over. I would expect a number of
> similar issues.

When you upgrade, if a configuration file was not modified, it is replaced
with the new version. You are presented with a list of changed/replaced
files, and you have to analyze file by file what to do.

Perhaps 20 files - not the whole set :slight_smile:

My trick is that I label my changes with my initials, so I know what I have
to redo and why. But I forget a number of changes, so I do a diff of old
and new files and review the changes.

> With the mysql databases, to you export and then import them?

I upgrade.


Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.2 x86_64 “Emerald” at Telcontar)

While using a separate /var partition, I create a /tmp sylink pointing to /var/tmp to keep /tmp and /var/lib on the same filesystem. Otherwise xkb complains about crosslinking issues and fails to rekompile the keymap. It is needed for example while opening X (NX) sessions remotely.

But what if you change your initials as well? lol!

I think I was mixing the questions since upgrading you wouldn’t have to worry about exporting.
For keeping the databases in a separate partition, how do you set that up? What partition do you separate out?

  • Either set up mysql to use another base directory somewhere in /usr/local and put /usr/local on a separate partition.
  • Or put /var/lib/mysql on a separate partition (that you would never reformat), this partition being different from /var itself (which might or not be separate from /) and mounted after /var in /etc/fstab.
  • Or export your database(s) with mysqldump --databases yourdatabase … > file.db and reimport them with mysql < file.db
  • You might need other options for mysqldump.

I missed that about the Virtual Machines. In general, what are they and what do they do for you? Would that have anything to do with testing other operating system versions?

Those options sound great. Any benefit of one over the other? With a separate partition you wouldn’t have to worry about overwriting them. But any issues with updated structure changes?

VMs are Virtual machines. In my case I run XP as as a guest under OpenSuse host. I use VirtualBox but there are several other options both free and paid.

You can define a mount point anywhere in the file system. So you can make any directory or subdirectory a mount point and mount a partition there.

Structure changes would have to do with changing app version should normally be taken care of by the app on question but manual tweaking is always a possibility.

Actually they are not mutually exclusive. You can still dump your databases to file whether or not they are on a separate partition. If you don’t see the benefit of having your databases in a separate partition (or better on a separate faster hard disk) in term of I/O speed, then you probably don’t need the first option. Also a separate partition can become too small at some point - if you don’t know yet how big it’s going to grow. The first option will allow some fine tuning and might increase performance if you know what you are doing … but also decrease performance if you don’t. The second option is kind of KISSAS (Simple, Stupid And Safe) :wink: