Without systemd

Hi all!

Are there any efforts here on openSUSE/OBS to build a system free of systemd?
I would really like to stay put here, but I do not like the current development of oS; nor, for that matter, of Linux in general.
Would be very nice if a Devuan-like openSUSE approach were on the agenda.

Cheers,
Olav

NB
I should also like to contribute wherever it was needed if so, I’m no programmer though.

Hi
Not that I’m aware off, maybe ask on the Factory mailing list or IRC #opensuse-factory.

You could always give SLED 11 SP4 a whirl, it’s still sysvinit and got a few more years of life to go…

Hi Malcolm

Thanks, I’ve already considered SLED, might give it a go.
Have systemd entered into SUSE’s plans (SLED 12)? I would expect large resistance by ICT maintainers adopting this.

Olav

And what exactly prevents you from checking yourself?

On Fri 16 Oct 2015 08:26:01 AM CDT, F Sauce wrote:

Hi Malcolm

Thanks, I’ve already considered SLED, might give it a go.
Have systemd entered into SUSE’s plans (SLED 12)? I would expect large
resistance by ICT maintainers adopting this.

Olav

Hi
Grab and eval license and can get access to updates etc, lots on OBS as
well :wink: Yes SLE 12 is systemd…

I installed SP4 last evening on a MacBook circa late 2007 model, works
nice with elilo and dual booting os X… only has 1GB of ram, need
to add some additional ram to try out other versions.


Cheers Malcolm °¿° LFCS, SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890)
SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 12 | GNOME 3.10.1 | 3.12.44-52.18-default
If you find this post helpful and are logged into the web interface,
please show your appreciation and click on the star below… Thanks!

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:56:01 +0000, F Sauce wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Are there any efforts here on openSUSE/OBS to build a system free of
> systemd?

Nope. The occasional person complaining about systemd, but nobody
willing to pick up and run with a systemd-free distribution.

Open Source is about scratching an itch. There isn’t a developer who
wants to scratch the itch of building a release without systemd.

If you have that itch, scratch it. Try to organize some folks to do it.

Jim


Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

Only if it’s being worked on as a covert operation! Well most of the systemd haters seem to disappear suddenly from the Factory ML a good while back… :wink:

Seriously, openSUSE is short on contributors for the distributions it currently supports, apparently. Alternatively, how many derivatives of openSUSE do you see among the available Linux based distros?

Even if you take a project such as Evergreen which extended the support cycle of a mature openSUSE version, it requires several volunteer maintainers - counted on the fingers of one hand but hard to find.

What does systemd prevent you from doing now that you did before the switch?

Strange, just the mention of sytemd in a slightly negative context arouses people.

It’s quite legal to discuss and utter opinions in regard any sort of development trend; and Jim, there is no reason to reach for a card every time someone present a critical view on systemd and its developers; one more or less should be obliged to do so, as long as the critique is based on reason of course.

The above comment is not meant to be a response regarding what said in this thread, more concerning my impression of how this topic had been dealt with in general, here and on the mailing list.

Thank you Malcolm.

Stay calm and have a splendid weekend all of you!

Cheers,
Olav

Hi

I see you’re point of course, it was just a question.

Systemd does not inflict on my situation as such; I worry a bit about what will come out of this, though, and find many counter argument against systemd reasonable concerns. But I am not going to elaborate my view, nor interpreting or paraphrasing any of them here now; the arguments should be well known.

One thing worth remembering though is that Linux developed without systemd, and systemd will (has) change(d) the system on a fundamental level.
There is much more to this than a mere technical perspective to consider, though that one also has its critics.

Olav

Reading the replies here, no one reached for a card, or attempted to shut the discussion down. You were merely provided with possible options - all reasonable replies to your questions and concerns IMHO.

Fair enough, I might be sort of expecting it.
I still think this topic seems too sensitive though.

I’m not going to be arguing; one of the reasons I asked was that I enjoy being around here.
Also, I have been running Devuan on one computer for a while and it works all right, but I am used to use oS and would prefer to still do so.

Olav

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:06:01 +0000, F Sauce wrote:

> It’s quite legal to discuss and utter opinions in regard any sort of
> development trend; and Jim, there is no reason to reach for a card every
> time someone present a critical view on systemd and its developers; one
> more or less should be obliged to do so, as long as the critique is
> based on reason of course.

I didn’t take it that way.

I simply was saying that nobody who’s currently working on openSUSE
development has that particular itch to scratch, and if that’s an itch
you want to scratch, then you should see about organizing an effort to
put something together.

Lots of people complain about systemd in openSUSE. Not one has decided
to do something about it.

You can be that “one”. :slight_smile:

Jim


Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:26:01 +0000, F Sauce wrote:

> But I am not going to elaborate my view, nor interpreting or
> paraphrasing any of them here now; the arguments should be well known.

Those well-known arguments have generally been refuted, though.

Most of the dislike for systemd centers around the person rather than the
technology, it seems.

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

Hi Jim!

I have to disagree, I can’t see that the arguments have been refuted.
I can’t claim to understand all the technical implications, positive or negative, that systemd incorporates, but I hope I understand most of the reasoning and arguments that have surrounded the debate.
But it’s OK to disagree.

I suppose this is old news for some, but anyway, I feel I should give some kind of reference; for me, the first link became a starting point:
http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
http://systemd-free.org/

Cheers,
Olav

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 21:26:01 +0000, F Sauce wrote:

> I have to disagree, I can’t see that the arguments have been refuted.
> I can’t claim to understand all the technical implications, positive or
> negative, that systemd incorporates, but I hope I understand most of the
> reasoning and arguments that have surrounded the debate.
> But it’s OK to disagree.

Most of the reasoning and arguments that remain have to do with the
individual who created it rather than the technology itself - or by
saying “well, he was responsible for PulseAudio, so systemd can’t be any
good”.

Which isn’t a strong technical argument.

I haven’t seen a technical argument given that hasn’t been refuted.

Like you said, it’s OK to disagree, but when disagreeing about what is
and isn’t the case, it’s important to know what is and isn’t factual
information.

I’m not saying I have all the facts, though - simply that I haven’t seen
a good summary of “here’s what’s technically wrong with systemd”.
There’s a lot of FUD around it, though, that’s for sure.

Jim


Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

What facts do you have? Like some evidence of the “arguments against” actually being successfully refuted, for example. :expressionless:

How about a summary of the “arguments for” - that should be easier…

A summary would be helpful, I agree, but waiting for a good summary from technical developers - it will be a very long wait. lol!

Hi
Who owns PID 1…

I’m happy for the computer to start up and do what I want it to do… :slight_smile:

And you think that’s a “helpful” summary? Hmm, tough luck on the situations where it doesn’t start up and it’s more difficult to diagnose.

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:36:02 +0000, consused wrote:

> What facts do you have? Like some evidence of the “arguments against”
> actually being successfully refuted, for example. :expressionless:

Generally, such a question starts not with a list of “here’s what I’ve
seen that has been refuted”, but someone saying “here’s something that’s
a problem that I haven’t seen being refuted”.

Otherwise it turns into a guessing game as to what problems people are
thinking about. I don’t have time for that game. :slight_smile:

Jim


Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:56:01 +0000, consused wrote:

> And you think that’s a “helpful” summary? Hmm, tough luck on the
> situations where it doesn’t start up and it’s more difficult to
> diagnose.

Not really. If it doesn’t start up, you boot into rescue mode or use
live media, then check the logs.

With sysvinit, you would typically boot with init=/bin/bash or do the
same sort of thing.

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C