Ok before I get started I want to say that I am running openSUSE 11 using KDE3 and have found it to be the best openSUSE release yet.
That said, I have seen not just in this forum, but in many others, a recurring theme. aka SuSE 11 sucks or the many variations of that statement.
Here is what I see.
People download the live CD, install it complain about KDE4 and determine that openSUSE sucks, or they do download the DVD, but install KDE4 and determine that openSUSE sucks…
The recurring theme? KDE4
Then of course the usual…well you have to add the factory repositories and then KDE4 will somewhat work and all will be good.
The problem as I see it is of course KDE4, not the fact that it is available, but the fact that it is the default on the CD, and the fact that it just isn’t stated clearly enough that KDE4 is without a doubt beta software, not stable, not complete, not fully functional and should only be used for “testing purposes”.
In short it is my humble opinion that KDE4 should never have been the default on the CD, it should be clearly marked as for testing only on the DVD.
I feel it is doing more harm to openSUSE the way it was included. Not the fact that it is included, but the way it was included.
I have attempted to steer folks away from it. I am tired of the openSUSE sucks comments, openSUSE does not suck, it is a great release. KDE4 sucks, the problem is getting people to make the distinction between the two.
I feel what you are saying and I have the same sentiment as I would love to see a new re-mastered version of openSUSE 11.0 brought out… for one including KDE 4.1, and maybe also making greater note that KDE 4.x is still ‘under construction’.
KDE 4 is not set as default btw… but is is a tempting choice for those wanting to venture new waters… sadly at the moment with 4.0 the experience is taunting for most.
It would be sad if the KDE 4.0 preview costs openSUSE more than it gains… On the other hand there are many improvements as well.
Hoping there will be some update or new release for those giving openSUSE 11.0 a roll…
It is sad. A large commercial or political mistake or error of strategy – whatever.
But the result is: bad for the uptake rate of Suse. If I was a brand new newbie I’d probably be using Fedora or Ubuntu now.
The release of openSUSE-11.1 will be sooner than the normal 9-month cycle. It is planned for Dec-2008 (ie within 6-months), so I think that does show the KDE-4 instabilities are prompting Novell/SuSE-GmbH to take some action. They are also a BIG kde supporter, they are encouraging KDE4 updates, which is another way they are taking action.
I agree with the sentiment that it is unfortunate there was no KDE-3.5.9 installation CD.
Reading my own post, and then thinking about Magic31 and brucecadieux posts, it makes me wonder if, rather than re-release openSUSE-11.0 in a remastered version for DVD/CD, how about a single release of an openSUSE-11.0 KDE-3.5.9 live CD? (and not wait for Dec)?
Unstable !? It may be at times. Though it wouldn’t send me running in the direction of a different distro. I have found 4.0.4 to be ALMOST spot on and cannot get 4.1 to work at all on my box. I have kde3 installed too, using it now.
Agreed, that new users are going to find the 4 experience somewhat dissapointing. And it’s more likely to make their Linux experience as a whole, BAD, and lead them back to M$ - rather than just put them off Suse, they are not likely to understand the whole kde 3 and 4 debate.
Suse is great for me. As for a re-master, I don’t really think it’s needed. Maybe a much clearer statement about installing 4 should have been in the install DVD though.!
I’ve inserted the KDE4 lice-cd into my drive and after it has loaded, I’ve installed the OS onto my PC. It went as a charm. Just after successfull install and updates, I’ve opened Yast and I installed KDE3.5.9 which runs perfectly. Even with FireFox 3 I still have to see the first problem. OpenSuSE 11 is for me a rock-solid OS. The kernel upgrade from 126.96.36.199 to 188.8.131.52 gave the OS another performance boost. So comments that ‘opensuse sucks’ are really pathetic. If there are complaints about components true arguments need to be used and not pathetic statements!
On Thu, 2008-07-17 at 09:16 +0000, brucecadieux wrote:
> Ok before I get started I want to say that I am running openSUSE 11
> using KDE3 and have found it to be the best openSUSE release yet.
> That said, I have seen not just in this forum, but in many others, a
> recurring theme. aka SuSE 11 sucks or the many variations of that
> Here is what I see.
> People download the live CD, install it complain about KDE4 and
> determine that openSUSE sucks, or they do download the DVD, but install
> KDE4 and determine that openSUSE sucks…
> The recurring theme? KDE4
Here’s my opinion…
Novell favors Gnome (thus it’s the only real supported DE
Gnome folks utterly HATE KDE v3 because it LOOKS like
Windows to much (I’ll reserve comment on the Mac-ish
style of Gnome).
Gnome folks always come up to me and say, “How do I…??”
and I say, “Well, that would be easy if you were using
KDE.” Regardless, functionality IS NOT why Gnome
folks hate KDE v3… it’s just the fact that it usually
has a “Start” button in the lower left.
With that said, and many will disagree with me, KDE 4’s
UI is considerably different. And it has found
favor with Gnome fans (probably because it’s just
as stable as Gnome).
So… there… this is the soapbox… I’ve said
Greetings from Guelph! I did the exact same as Tom2K, installing the KDE4 livecd and adding KDE3.5.9. Suse 11 runs beautifully on my old year 2000 Dell P111 desktop with 512MB ram.
I agree there should be a KDE 3.5 live cd so new users are not discouraged.
If you comment on dot.kde.org that you don’t like KDE 4 then clearly you’re an idiot who can’t understand the genius of KDE 4. People are insistent that it is fine for a desktop right now, and that there have been absolutely no mistakes.
Compare that to the number of users who are unhappy with KDE 4, and I see a real problem.
KDE 4 isn’t terrible, nor is it perfect. But when developers don’t listen to criticism, they certainly head down the road to developing something terrible.
Well, looks like this is being discussed on the opensuse mailing list. The issue that came up from the KDE developer was there is no time for them to create one. On that note though, he did state the KDE team will “impart the skills and information needed to do so to anyone who wants to, support them in maintaining it, and host the resulting images. It is a non-programming task, it just requires as much common sense as is needed to keep your normal openSUSE install ticking over.”
So one might be on its way and if someone wants to help create the livecd, they might want to jump on the mailing list and let the folks know.
I’m one who has tried a bunch of different Linux versions. I started with Fedora 2, then 3 and then switched to Ubuntu for stability. It was stable 6.04 and 6.10 and I used it for over a year. Then I just then got bored with it and tried Mandriva. Hated it.
Next I tried Elive. It’s too experimental but has potential. I also tried Fluxbuntu and Kubuntu, but they were short-lived. Then I tried Mepis, Vector Linux, Zenwalk and Dreamlinux. I found all to be unstable, not well supported (except Mandriva and Mepis - but still too unstable) and deleted them.
Then I found PCLinuxOS with KDE and fell in love with it. It just works, and the updates are spot on and it runs fast on my old desktop. Best hardware detecting version I’ve used and everything from my jumpdrive to my nVidia card to my multi-function printer/fax/scanner were detected and installed. Even my old digital camera works via USB.
I had watched openSUSE from afar. A long time ago I had a live CD and I liked it’s polished look. Never used it though.
After reading about it I decided to take a chance on Novell despite what I read about them being in bed with M$. (I’m really waiting on Sun to come out with “Looking Glass” but I’m afraid they may never make it or that it will require much more powerful hardware)
Anyway, installing the LiveCD for 11.0 was probably a mistake because it took forever to download the updates. I wish I had installed from the DVD (which I had downloaded too)
I wanted this BECAUSE of KDE4. The reviews were good but they all pointed out that KDE4 was STILL a work in progress. I knew I could install 3.5.9 instead or also, but why? I already had a rock solid desktop with PCLinuxOS using that version. I wanted the new one.
What I found was that 4.04 was unfinished and unstable for me. However, by enabling the “factory” and “buildservice” repos I got the latest version (not without some pain … but no pain, no gain!!) and I slowly found that 4.1 was more complete, even in beta, than 4.04. It was also more solid and robust.
Now I am having some boot problems, but I’ve figured out a workaround until more updates come out.
Overall, I would rank PCLinuxOS as #1, followed closely by openSUSE 11.0 and #3 would be Ubuntu. I have not tried the latest Ubuntu, and I understand it has it’s own issues, but it’s still a favorite distro.
The most interesting one is Elive. It’s just not under heavy development now as a DE. I’ve not tried it just as a WM in any of my distros and I won’t try it in Suse. Kwin works great for me and I like the integrated desktop effects – though they have some more work to do. All in all, OpenSuse 11.0 with KDE4.1 RC1 (soon to be KDE4.1) is a close second to PCLinuxOS and is quite usable on my laptop. It also has a much better face than KDE 3.5.9. It just looks modern and elegant.
Oh … and I hate Vista. Suse runs circles around it and has better effects. Plus, I just think Vista is garbage. If M$ were wise, they would come out with Vista lite. (I don’t mean the home version either) But M$ doesnt’ think that way. They like to bloat everything.
I don’t understand why Microsoft doesn’t just make a Windows version based off of BSD, like Apple did with OSX. It would be much more resistant to viruses, and more stable. Would it be legal for them to do that?
Don’t forget they are commercially driven. So being even vaguely connected to a BSD license probably wouldn’t match their mindset.
And of course they’re proud of their OS and rightly so except for the two duds – win ME and win vista. But there’s a replacement for vista being hammered out just as fast as they can – to get vista off the shelves.