Project & Governance

The goal of this discussion is to put forward one or more detailed proposals around how the project’s governance structures should work. At this stage we don’t need to decide on a “Best” option but rather provide choices for the community to discuss and decide on.

This discussion should also look at how a foundation would fit into the project’s governance structures in the future and the requirements that the community has for its operation.

Currently, the document at openSUSE:Board - openSUSE Wiki provides a guide to what the current board should be working on while openSUSE:Board election rules - openSUSE Wiki provides the closest thing we have to a “Constitution” via the election rules. This working group should work to create alternate versions of these so that its easier to understand what change would look like.

Status Quo ++

I’m going to create a couple of posts that can be turned into threads / topics to get discussion going. I’m not convinced these are the best options personally but they are probably worth bringing to the community.

The first of these is what i’m calling the “Status Quo” which is really if the community as a whole decide they don’t want to see significant changes to the projects governance, what we should update to reflect the current reality of the project.

The one major thing that I can see related to this is the relationship of the newer foundations along with the fact that currently we have a “treasurer” position documented who used to look after TSP mostly which for now has been moved to the geekos foundation.

So if we don’t change anything else I’d like to see us at least replace references to the treasurer with a “trustee of the foundation”. Some of the downsides of just doing this is it means the foundation is only tied in very loosly and depending on there governance structure they aren’t really accountable to the projects members. Both of these I hope we can solve in a different governance structure. Such as the ones i’ll post later.

But for now lets use this thread as a place to collect any other “Minor” changes to our governance structure that you believe would be worth making.

3 Bodies: Foundation (Finance+Legal) / Technical / Community

This is one of the proposals I posted to the mailing list, it might not be the best solution but its probably a good start for some discussion. Again we could have a separate thread / topic for discussing itterating on and improving this proposal

Robert gave another great talk at the conference which doesn’t seem to be uploaded yet with part of his focus being around getting the right people into roles that suite them best.

Maybe the most “natural” way forward if we were to keep the projects current governance structures as they are would be to expand the boards role to also oversee the foundation roles as they already deal with trademark issues and historically appointed the treasurer. At the same time this would leave the Board doing alot.

Broadly speaking It would leave the board responsible for three different categories, Firstly “Financial and Legal”, Secondly “People issues” whether it is helping resolve conflict or Facilitating communications by connecting the right people together to work on shared goals. Thirdly “Technical” while the board does less of this sometimes we do need to resolve conflicts that are mostly technical in nature or communicate with SUSE around issues that are largely technical.

Financial, People and Technical issues all require significantly different skill sets and it is hard to find people who are both good at, passionate about and willing to deal with all three at the same time.

One solution could be to split the projects governance into three parts.

  • Board of the foundation - Responsible for all financial and legal matters
  • Technical steering committee - This could cover managing technical conflicts as well as other more project wide technical decisions and could involve working with SUSE on more technical matters. It could also be extended to look at other issues that we haven’t looked at in the past such as what are the requirements to be a full distro mentioned on our website vs something that is in the experemental state.
  • Community Something (I couldn’t think of a good name) - Final point of call for community conflicts and anything else that doesn’t fit into the “Financial/Legal” or “Technical” Category.

Each of these bodies should be appointed by the community in a similar way to the current board.

While the above solution would do a better job at getting the right people dealing with the right issues there are other risks that could arise mainly if there was conflicts between two of the groups on how to deal with an issue. Such as the Board and Technical Steering Committee disagreeing on how funding should be allocated towards technical projects. So how such conflicts should be resolved would need to be well documented.

Again i’m not sure if this is the best way forward but its probably one worth discussing.

These are a few rough proposals that I put together a few months back.

To be clear, these are very general, and need much discussion, if they were something that the community was interested in.

This first one assumes that the project remains under the auspices of SUSE S.A. as it does now:

This second one, proposes exploring the option of joining an existing open source foundation, such as SPI, SFC, or CNCF (I chose SPI for this proposal, since they seem to be a reasonable fit, given the other projects that are members):

This third one, proposes to create a new foundation, with the potential for hosting other projects, that currently might not be part of the openSUSE Project, and would act in a similar manner to the previously mentioned Foundations:

I want to be clear, we are talking about two different issues here, so it’s a bit difficult to bang something together in a unified manner. We have two issues that aren’t necessarily mutally exclusive:

Issue #1:

Is the current way the project is governed internally, effective and suitable for the projects needs?

Issue #2:

With SUSE S.A. holding the Trademarks and Legal Entity that is “openSUSE” is this still a workable structure, for both the project and for SUSE S.A?

In essence, it’s not impossible, that the project could continue under the current internal governance, but under a different organization. Or the internal project governance could be reworked, while still remaining tied to SUSE S.A.

They’re both things that need to be discussed.

With regards to Issue #2, as long as SUSE is willing to continue to provide us access to the use of the trademark then it could be workable to keep the openSUSE name and go to a different governance structure. With any change to the governance structure SUSE would have to agree otherwise they could use the chairpersons veto.

There are probably some limitations, Firstly we probably couldn’t create a new legal entity with openSUSE in the name. A previous board had legal advice that if SUSE was willing to transfer the openSUSE trademark it would be possible for both to exist despite the similarities (there are some legal precedents for this) but I don’t believe SUSE has the appetite for that so I don’t see that part as an option atm.

Beyond that there are probably some other “minor” considerations such as following other trademark discussions SUSE would likely want to continue to maintain the dns server for opensuse.org etc.

If we were looking for a governance structure that completely removed SUSE’s involvement from the project including stuff like self hosting all infra doing such without changing the name would probably be hard but I don’t think that is necessarily what we are aiming for atm. If the community and geekos agreed we could do something along the lines of merging the two entities in such a way that the existing openSUSE Board become the trustees of the Geeko foundation (Again I don’t think this is the best solution). We could do this and continue to have openSUSE.org and continue to be the openSUSE Community for as long as the community wants to and SUSE allows use of the trademark.

So I think in the context of this discussion and this thread we can keep the “Name” issue separate at least for now until we figure out what the best structure would be going forward. If we come up with a solution that the Geekos foundation agrees with where we use that as the legal entity the name is not going to be an issue we need to solve as part of this discussion. Similarly if the community moves forward with a rename then we can register a legal entity under that name and ensure it winds up with the trademark so that we don’t end up in this issue again in the future. If we end up with a solution other then those two then we will need some other name to register an entity under but I don’t think that should affect the actual structures that we are looking at right now. So we are probably safe to presume for now that the governance structure should work regardless of the projects branding atleast until we have more clarity on that question.

So I would State that the focus of this discussion topic is presuming that we don’t believe the existing governance structure is the best for the project. As such we are working on one or more different structures that we believe would be better then what we have currently. Once we have one or more of these proposals then we will need to take them back to the community and convince them to agree with us. Separately the community could agree to change the name without really changing our governance structure but that isn’t the focus of this part of the discussion.

I’ve been too busy to put alot of work into this during the week but the main option I want to start to explore further and develop into a proposal is based off Bill’s email to the project list.

I think this option is similar to the 3 body structure but is cleaner and solves the problem of how the differing groups interact if there are different priority’s. Hopefully next week i’ll be able to start to work on this further but if anyone would like to join me in this let me know. Re: Rebranding of the Project - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

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I am interested in this as well - things have been busier than expected for me the last few weeks, and I’m actually out of town for a bit next week, but I do think that Bill has some interesting thoughts that are worth digging into a bit more.

One thing that seems to be fairly clear to me is that from a governance standpoint, we don’t really have a formalized structure; the board’s role has historically overlapped with this more than maybe it should (different people have different thoughts on this), but it has also kinda fallen to the board de facto because there’s nobody else really doing that work. (Happy to be proven wrong on that - I might be invoking Cunningham’s Law here to an extent.)

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I’m in “discover mode” with most of these discussions. Unless you’re part of this esoteric governance framework already it is rather like trying to look through an opaque window to see what’s inside. If things can be done to formalize and improve the project governance structure and make it transparent to all, then that will be a win for everyone associated with it.

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I think it’s going to take folks some time to wrap their heads around all the moving parts. I think some Q&A-based discussion might be a really good way to help us all understand a little better what the objectives and requirements are.

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To be frank, as a board member, I’d like to say that I have a firm grasp on how things work in the project.

But I’d be lying.

It’s part of the reason we need to be having this discussion.

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I once worked for a company that was over 20 years old but felt like a startup (in terms of policies and procedures, and how things got done).

There are a lot of similarities between that company and how we do things here - and there are certainly advantages to having a structure that’s not entirely coherent, because you have a lot of flexibility.

But with that amount of flexibility comes uncertainty and confusion, and bringing new people into that environment is very challenging, as we’ve experienced - even knowing how to get started can be a big hurdle.

I think a governance structure around the project needs to strike a balance between the flexibility of “anything goes” and being too rigid in what is/isn’t allowed. From some informal discussions, for example, the idea of a technical steering committee is something that perhaps is seen as undesirable for various reasons, including (ultimately) the lack of flexibility in letting people “scratch their particular itch” and having it be part of the project as a whole.

I think there’s merit to that point of view. At the same time, there’s also, I think, a need to have some mediator/arbitrator about how the project does things so efforts aren’t duplicated. I don’t see that role as the same as the board’s role in dispute resolution (but maybe it isn’t), which I see more about community disputes rather than technical disputes.

Linux kernel development seems (in my view, not that I’ve really looked closely) to have the flip side of that - they have Linus and others like Greg K-H who act as technical “final deciders” about what gets included and doesn’t, but there isn’t much in the way of a formalized mediation structure for non-technical disputes (maybe because of the nature of that project, the disputes tend not to be non-technical).

Our project is a much broader scope, obviously, than the Linux kernel is, so the needs are different. But perhaps we need to start with looking at our charter before getting into governance.

Closest thing to a charter that I’ve seen on the website is this:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere. openSUSE creates one of the world’s best Linux distributions, as well as a variety of tools, such as OBS, OpenQA, Kiwi, YaST, OSEM, working together in an open, transparent and friendly manner as part of the worldwide Free and Open Source Software community.

(From openSUSE Wiki)

That first sentence is really the summary itself, and it’s extremely broad - maybe too broad. It lacks information about scope, objectives, resources, roles, and responsiblities. (Timeline is often used in project charters, but how that would fit for something this large is a bit different).

It may be fair to say that openSUSE isn’t a “project” in the “PMI” sense of a project, but more like a “program” (a collection of projects that are coordinated together), but even in program management, there’s more than a single declarative sentence that defines what the program is about - that structure helps define what the elements of governance are.

If we start with:

The openSUSE project is a worldwide effort that promotes the use of Linux everywhere.

And then answer the question “How does it do this?” (which the second sentence perhaps attempts to answer, but also is too much of a summary), maybe that gets us started.

Or maybe we take that high-level answer and break it down into more specific, defined, and (dare I say) measurable goals, and that would help us get to what we need in order to start building governance around those objectives.

Hi.

I’m in the process of starting to understand how openSUSE actually works as it does today, so please forgive me if I misunderstand something or make some ridiculous statement at any point.

Can we start with how things are done today and how decisions are made and communicated? Furthermore, is there a document so that we “uninitiated” can get an idea of ​​how it works?

I’ve read all 3 sfalken documents. Well, it seems reasonable that there is a technical and a non-technical council, although I don’t know if you see any use in each project being represented at least in the technical one.

As for the rest, it seems to pivot a lot around the relationship between openSUSE and SUSE. And since this is a two-person thing, what do we know about SUSE’s point of view? This also goes because in my point of view a healthy relationship between SUSE and openSUSE I think is very opportune, I don’t see much advantage in independence even if there were no problems with funding and other resources. I don’t see what advantages this would bring to openSUSE and if there are currently problems I think they should be added to the discussion.

To be honest, this question is too broad to answer.

When you’re asking “How things are done and communicated” are you asking about technical decisions? community decisions? social media presence? Because there’s not one answer, at all.

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Thank you for your understanding.

Well, if there’s is some “guide” or sample to understand how it works, I’d like to read it.

Not all! but there’s a proccess? I.e. if the Council makes a decision, is it communicated in some way? Is it posted on a mailing list or something else and the people concerned are expected to read it? Or is there some kind of discussion mechanism, as you proposed a dispute resolution mechanism which would be similar - but something different.

I’m sure that most fans, a lot of forum or wiki contributors don’t have much of an idea of ​​how things are done.

I even helped translate into Spanish the section of the wiki that is supposed to deal with that, but beyond what concerns the wiki itself, I really don’t understand how it works beyond “join teams”, “suggest software”, “participate in meetings”…

For example, it could be that I or someone else proposes things that are already done that way. Or that there is already a definite reason for not doing it that way.

So are we talking about the way things currently work, or about how things are envisioned to work, under the proposals I put together?

That’s the question I’m asking here, before I can even attempt to answer anything.

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I think you’re asking about how things are currently done, rather than under the draft proposals that have been shared, so I’m going to attempt to answer that question.

Ultimately, decisions get made by those who lead efforts. Richard makes the decisions about what gets included in Aeon. Shawn makes the decisions about what gets included in Kalpa. The team that’s working on Agama (the new installer) decides what’s important for that.

So we have a bunch of these “components” in the project that are run largely independently, but discussions organically take place when their interdependence causes an issue.

The board, ultimately, is a dispute resolution group. There are instances where they have done things beyond that scope (I couldn’t say what, this is just my understanding. I understand that is, in part, what led to discussions around the need for a bit more formalized governance structure).

That’s a very broad view, and as @sfalken said, when you start getting into more specifics, it varies quite a bit - and the differences rapidly become apparent more quickly. Broadly, “those who do decide” is the way it happens. But the definition of “those who do” also can be variable depending on what we’re talking about.

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Yes, thanks for the answer.

I agree with

And I would add “how do we want to do it”.

Personally I’d like to see some kind of “long term” idea. For now what has been guiding us is the “what a great idea!”.

- We have factory, what if we turn it into Tumbleweed?
- Yeah, how cool! Go for it!
- People complain that openSUSE support doesn’t last long, should we do Evergreen?
- Yeah, how cool! Go for it!

- well, Evergreen isn’t working out that well, should we remove it?
- Yeah, how cool! Go for it!

- people at SUSE(1) say that what if we integrate it to make a more robust distro?
- Yeah, how cool! Go for it!
- people at SUSE don’t know if they’re going to do SLED 16, what if we do slowroll?
- Yeah, how cool! Go for it!

And this is cool. On the OS side we have Tumbleweed/Slowroll, Leap 15/16, MicroOS and it seems that Aeon is taking shape - although Kalpa doesn’t seem to have as much support.

In my opinion, this works very well for those of us who are already fans of openSUSE or at least know about it. But it’s very difficult to explain to people what we’re aiming for or to give them a certain assurance that something will exist in 5 or 10 years (okay, absolute certainty isn’t possible anyway, of course)(2).

And let’s not even talk about the rest of the projects. I.e. we have YaST and Cockpit, and Aeon already comes without YaST. We have YaST and Agama as installers. I mean, I spend my life bragging that “openSUSE” has the best installer of any operating system out there, and if someone downloads the Leap 16 ISO they’ll find Agama and throw the pendrive at my head(3).

It would be great to have an organization that could give shape and meaning to all this. And that, rather than resolving disputes, could coordinate the efforts of the different projects in view of medium or long-term objectives. “Objectives” being the answer to the question at the beginning of the post.

(1) I really don’t know whose idea it was.
(2) Because time really does go by fast. We’ve been here since 2006 or 2007, right?
(3) Yes, I understand the idea of ​​why, but has there been any thought given to how it fits into promoting Linux etc?

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If by “that work” you mean leadership of different aspects of the project: No the board is not defined as the backup and also does not effectively act as the backup of community leaders. Either we have community leadership for an aspect or we don’t.

I’ve seen some claim that what I said is what happens - but certainly feel free to provide a more accurate/comprehensive picture of how things get done when there is no leader in the community for an essential need. :slight_smile:

Simple: The essential need is not done. See much of the infrastructure (app level not system level), the wiki or onboarding/mentorship…