MYTH: Windows Is "Easier."

English Soapbox
1

You can give Microsoft and Windows credit for this: their products generally work well and are easy to use as installed (important point, back to it in a moment!) on a new machine. But my assistant and I were talking yesterday about this, and he mentioned a comment that Caitlyn Martin had made in a Linux forum online the other day: Windows’ “ease of use” is largely an illusion, because most users buy the computer pre-loaded with all of the software that they’ll ordinarily use.

If you have to install Windows from scratch, heaven help you. It’s just that simple. Period, dot.

When I upgraded my motherboard last week, I (obviously) had to update/change a lot of drivers for the new hardware. This is one of those typical “all-in-one” boards; NVidia chipset and video, built-in LAN, and so on. There’s a lot of stuff on there.

After resolving one minor issue with the LAN (a simple BIOS setting), I put in the Opensuse CD for a NET install and just let it run overnight. The next morning, my system was 95% ready to go, with OpenOffice, Mozilla and most everything else I needed or wanted. All of the hardware, except for my printer, had been configured (and the printer was solved with a one-click install of an updated driver). Suse had upgraded/installed “around” my original /home folder, so most of my desktop settings were intact.

(OK, in fairness: the video worked fine and the desktop was usable, but of course I had to one-click install the NVidia drivers to get 3D accelaration. I can see where this might be difficult for a newbie, but I’ve done it so many times now, it’s second nature to “init 3,” run “sax -r,” then back to “init 5” and run “nvidia-settings” to get what I want.)

Bottom line: the OpenSuse Linux installation was a BREEZE. I fully agree with Ms. Martin – people who say that “windows is easier” have obviously never had to install or reinstall the thing. Now … for the REST of the story … … … :slight_smile:

If you have to replace a hard drive, or buy a new motherboard, or do anything else that requires a major upgrade or reinstallation of Windows, IT IS A NIGHTMARE. (Pardon me for yelling, but it’s the truth.)

  1. You have to dig up/find all of the CDs containing drivers and software packages, and/or hope that you can fetch them online. And hope that the @#$#@! key codes are still readable. And hope that you don’t have to install 4 gigabytes of updates for EACH PACKAGE.

  2. Oh, but first, you have to get the network up and running! This is where it was absolutely hilarious: Windows kept complaining that I needed to “revalidate” XP, since my hardware had changed. So, keep this in mind: through all of this happiness, rebooting time and time again, I had to keep whacking the “I’ll register later” button over and over and over.

Besides, I couldn’t re-validate until I got the network up. But Biostar’s CD wanted to install the drivers itself, and yet, Windows’ Found New Hardware “Wizard” kept arguing with it. Seriously. I’d install one driver, I’d get the usual “Windows needs to reboot” dialog, I’d let it reboot, then move to the next driver. But in this case, it rebooted into a blank desktop – nothing but wallpaper. On faith, I started Biostar’s installer. It stopped and said, “sorry, the Windows Found New Hardware Wizard needs to be closed first.”

Good thing I knew the old WinTel “three-finger-salute” – CTRL-ALT-DEL, bring up the task list, then start slaughtering crap right and left. I finally get the desktop, reload the Biostar installation thingie, and get the network running.

(After another reboot. Of course.)

THEN I revalidated. THEN I reinstalled the rest of the stuff. THEN I had to wait for all of the updates, the whole time worried that my machine was vulnerable WHILE the updates were being downloaded and installed (and it IS vulnerable, by the way … most people don’t know that; it’s a well-kept dirty secret about Windows).

Bottom line: ANYONE … and I mean, ANYONE … who thinks that Windows is easier to install on the average PC, with the average hardware, should be (1) wrapped in a clean, white straitjacket and (2) quietly led away so that they don’t drool on the carpet.

Believe me, this is the shortened version. There’s no need to belabor the fact that, after EACH package or driver is installed, you have to reboot, which takes time.

There. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. :slight_smile:

But PS: no WONDER there are so many “computer repair” and “on site service” companies in the Yellow Pages nowadays. Man, I could make a decent living just helping people re-install their stupid printers under Windows when they have to replace a hard drive!

2

> Man, I could make a
> decent living just helping people re-install their stupid printers under
> Windows when they have to replace a hard drive!

Ummm. People do. But don’t think it wouldn’t be the same if Linux was the
dominant desktop. There will always be people that don’t ‘get it’. Not
really their fault they just aren’t wired for understanding it or just don’t
want to.

3

I understand the sentiment.

I left Windoze back toward the end of the win95 days (in mid-1998), using Linux on my home desktop since. Hence I really struggle with Windoze. Now I am forced to use Windoze at the office for paper work stuff (memos, email … ) and hence I can do basic navigation on WinNT and WinXP. However I don’t have admin permissions on the office Windoze PC and can not install sofware on Windoze. So I’ve never learned the “tricks” (if here are any). For to install applications on Windoze, if I am forced trying to first find the software, and install Windoze software on some one’s home PC, I tend to go ballistic. There is no nice list (in Windoze) as there is in openSUSE as to the apps I can chose from to install. I’m fed up with Windoze spam filled web sites, fed up with having to virus scan every file that I put on the PC, fed up with having to answer and research dozen’s of zone alarm warnings for every application I install. My frustration levels on Windoze sky rocket. My wife knows that to ask me a Windoze support question requires a LOT of payment in return.

On openSUSE, since I’ve been using it for years, I can add an rpm from a repos in a FRACTION of the time, with far less pain, than I can install an app with Windoze. Of course in openSUSE the trick is to stick with apps in the repos, … which is something that an incredible amount of new Linux users refuse to do. The beauty of openSUSE (and some other distro’s like Fedora and Debian based) is there are a massive number of applications precompiled/packaged, ready to install incredibly easy.

I can be wound up real easy in what a comparative PITA Windoze installs are (in comparison to an openSUSE repos install).

4

It’s easy to summarise: Windows is “easier” to install because you don’t do the install, the manufacturer does. It’s a tribute to modern Linux distros that they are increasingly able to handle most of the mish-mash of hardware thrown at them.

Windows is also “easier” to use, because that’s what people are used to. In truth, someone given a modern desktop like GNOME or KDE and not told it’s not Windows will get on just fine and even sometimes complement the desktop on how smooth it is. And with emphasis moving away from desktop apps to web apps, the platform is increasingly irrelevant. That’s what M$ fears about the projected Chrome OS based machines.

5

I think you miss the point. If I’m sitting in my chair, looking at a brand new, “barebones” PC (or a PC that I’ve recently repaired, whatever), I want to reinstall Windows and/or Linux. At that point, whether I’m Edward HackerHands ™ or a gurgling newbie, the task at hand is the issue. And given that set of conditions, the fact is that a good distro like OpenSUSE is far, FAR easier to install than is Windows.

My comment about people charging to help with Windows brings to mind the “Geek Team” at a well-known retailer. I wanted a stick of RAM and was too impatient to wait for mail order, so I went into one of these stores the other day. I watched (and listened) to these “experts” helping others and was endlessly amused. These people make a killing simply helping others to swap a hard drive or add RAM – tasks that, by any measure, are far simpler under Linux.

Let me give you an example: under Windows, you generally back up “My Documents;” under Linux, it’s the /home folder. Theoretically, you can nuke, reinstall, and copy the folder back in place to get most of what you had before. But trying to do this under Windows, you’ll not only miss files that WEREN’T put in My Documents (many items are written in the Registry), as you expected, you’ll get file access violations during the copy if any process has opened and “locked” the file. This one fact makes Windows much, much more difficult to back up and restore. (Speaking from real-life experience.)

(My friend, there’s a REASON why many retailers’ “recovery” disks warn you that you’re about to lose everything, then nuke and start you over with a clean system.)

But back to The Geeks™(r)(C). I already knew what I needed; when the salesperson told me I’d have to wait for one of the “geeks” to become free – they stay busy, believe me – I told him that I most assuredly knew several times more than the “geek,” and that if he’d just let me around the counter, I could pick out the RAM I wanted and get out of his hair.

(He didn’t quite know how to take that. But he let me grab the RAM and run, which suited me fine. :slight_smile:

6

And I feel you right back. My assistants get tickled at me every time I have to use one of our Windows-based workstations because I invariably start with, “I hate Windows.” I chant and mutter this mantra the whole time I’m there.

(For those who are curious, the system that we’re using is the most popular radio automation package: RCS NexGen Digital Studio Automation Software)

They think I’m joking. I know I’m serious. And since I’m the one living in my head, my opinion is what matters. :slight_smile:

Shoot, the first thing I miss is my multiple KDE desktops. The first thing I hate is playing “whack a mole” with all the “helpful” (wink, wink) balloons that keep popping up from the taskbar while I’m trying to address an emergency … say, we’re OFF AIR and LOSING MONEY??? And I get, “you have unused icons on your desktop,” and “SuperWidgieWhirlie wants to install an update!”

Or … here’s my favorite! … wait for it! … you’re in the middle of a critical operation, and Windoze has installed an update “in the background” … and while you’re frantically working to correct a serious problem (remember, we’re OFF AIR), every few minutes you are klonged to a screeching HALT by that stupid, “Windows has finished updating and needs to reboot” dialog.

There’s no way to tell that stupid thing, “I’m aware of your concern, now shut up and go away. I’ll eventually restart and make you happy, but right now, I’m busy …”

Under Linux, even when the updater installs a new kernel, I get ONE (1) polite little KUpdaterApplet window at the top of the screen: “you need to reboot your system as soon as possible.” Then it goes away.

7

They deserve all the credit in the world. Seriously. Sure, sometimes I get annoyed, same as anyone else, when a driver package doesn’t work straight out of install (like the printer mentioned above), but believe me: when I “fuss” at Linux, it’s a lover’s spat. With Windows, it’s pure hatred. :slight_smile:

Windows is also “easier” to use, because that’s what people are used to. In truth, someone given a modern desktop like GNOME or KDE and not told it’s not Windows will get on just fine and even sometimes complement the desktop on how smooth it is. And with emphasis moving away from desktop apps to web apps, the platform is increasingly irrelevant. That’s what M$ fears about the projected Chrome OS based machines.

VERY well said. I fully agree.

My assistant tried Chrome the other day, by the way. He says it’s not ready for Prime, but it’s intriguing. I’ve tried the Chrome browser under Windoze (WHEN will they finally release a build for Linux???), but I didn’t see enough to make me switch from my beloved Firefox yet.

8

Its the weekly virus scans that take place at the office that drive me up the wall. … In defence of our Windows system administrators, there are really very very good (especially given what they have to work with = windoze) and they try hard to pick a time when the antivirus software can run (typically lunch hour). They are also very polite, and knowledgeable about the quirks of Windoze (of which there are many)

The problem is I work in operations where anomalies / urgent requests from the boss don’t wait for the antiviral stuff to finish before they happen. I’ll be working on a tight deadline, with a significant impact if I am late, when my Windoze PC will do what it does best … DOZE … DOZE especially when the anti-virus software starts running. Of course there is no 4-desktop to spread out the apps I need open to make it easier to find things. So instead I then have to use the overcrowded bar at the bottom of the Windoze desktop to look thru the many apps that I have running, to find the weekly anti-virus software (which takes almost an hour to run) to stop the anti-virus scans (which does mean I’ll “pay” later in the week for a restart of the entire anti-viral scans).

Murphy’s law says the anti-virus scans will happen at the worst time, and they do. Indeed those scans prove Murphy to be an optimist, and they drive me up the wall.

9

You can get builds for Chromium for Linux for various distros. I think there is another thread on this forum on it. I’ve run it under Ubuntu (because it what I use at work and I try all sorts of new stuff on that machine) and also because adding the PPA repo pulls in the daily build. One thing that is noticeable is the rendering speed. It doesn’t have all the features people are used to having on Firefox, but it is maturing rapidly.

10

Thank the Lord, that’s one irritation I don’t have to worry about. Since my assistant and I administer (and thus make the rules for) that audio network, we’ve corralled that entire network behind a brick firewall. They can’t install software, browse the Web or check email on those machines, either. Therefore, we don’t run AV on them (we couldn’t, precisely because of the performance issues you mention).

In the studios, we use the Linux Terminal Project for the Internet-capable workstations, so no AV there, either.

Bribe your sysadmins to look into the LTSP. If they could ever convince your PHB’s to go for it, the company would save a boatload of money, their jobs would be much, much easier and you’d be a lot happier! :slight_smile:

11

Not long after I posted that, I saw the thread you mentioned. I’ll give it a try!

12

Windows is for people who do not care for “what is under their hood” or for people for whom windows is synonyms with computers, for people who do not know what OS is and will look aghast if you are booting into something other than windows (How come :open_mouth: ) rotfl!.

Personally I know how tough is to get windows working. I got a good experience with that when I bought my laptop two years back. It came with a windows vista home basic edition. I had to install Oracle 11g because I wanted to learn it. When I did, the speed came to crawl. And then I had to install an anti-virus(Obviously, how could not I on a windows box). Then it just froze. Increasing RAM size to 2GB did not help me.

Now, am I supposed to just surf the net, listen music, view videos and browse windows folders?? Am I not supposed to do some serious work!! Obviously not if I have not sufficient money in my pocket to get a configuration up-to windows mark…

I had a Ubuntu CD then, I just put it in and installed and man, I was really amazed with the speed and smoothness. A few days later I bumped into opensuse 11.0 and since then I am stuck with opensuse. I must confess my love for computers and learning software has increased manifold since then. What can I do, Linux just makes you love it. Now I have got Oracle 11g, MySQL 5, Apache server, and a lot of other things running on my KDE system and it has never “crashed” till now. Now my friends get awed when they see some of compiz effects on my system and become dumbstruck that I did not had to pay some obscene amount of money for it.

I am not one of those who hate windows. It is a nice OS for those who do not want to bother themselves about more choice and have got a huge extra amount in their bank accounts :wink: but the best thing about Linux (in general) and open-source (in particular) which windows people are missing is is the community support you get here. People whom you do not know, different nationalities, different religion, different backgrounds helping those people whom they have never met, will never meet and they do not “charge” you for that, but are always there for you whenever you need them:).

13

I run a small computer shop and build custom comuters. It takes about 10-12 hours to build, install Win XP, update then install flash, java, abobe reader, video and audio codecs and antivirus then configure it all. I can build a comp and install openSUSE then configure all in about 2 hours.

If the public was forced to install Windoz themselves and go through the process of installing updates ( typically about 10 update sessions with reboots ) then had to go and install adobe reader, flash, java, codecs and get it all working. I would be a rich man.

14

> good distro like OpenSUSE is far, FAR easier to install than is Windows.
For you, but you cannot extrapolate your experience onto others.
It is easy for me to say the KDE is easier to use than GNOME, but that would
not hold true for everyone.

> My comment about people charging to help with Windows brings to mind
> the “Geek Team” at a well-known retailer. I wanted a stick of RAM and
> was too impatient to wait for mail order, so I went into one of these
> stores the other day. I watched (and listened) to these “experts”
> helping others and was endlessly amused. These people make a killing
> simply helping others to swap a hard drive or add RAM – tasks that, by
> any measure, are far simpler under Linux.

How is installing memory or a hard disk simpler to a person with no
knowledge of how to do so any simpler under Linux than Windows? Point is
the people using GS fall under the category of don’t know, don’t care or
don’t have the time or patience.

> Let me give you an example: under Windows, you generally back up “My
> Documents;” under Linux, it’s the /home folder. Theoretically, you can
> nuke, reinstall, and copy the folder back in place to get most of what
> you had before. But trying to do this under Windows, you’ll not only
> miss files that WEREN’T put in My Documents (many items are written in
> the Registry), as you expected, you’ll get file access violations during
> the copy if any process has opened and “locked” the file. This one
> fact makes Windows much, much more difficult to back up and restore.
> (Speaking from real-life experience.)

I wonder how many users actually do their own file migrations and upgrades?
Of course we all do in here, but I can speak…from experience…that I have
had to migrate more than my fair share of Joe Users files simply because
they have no clue to know where to begin. Many users simply ‘nuke’ their
machine either out of frustration or ignorance and lose all of their data.
Worse, I would say that a good portion of users never migrate. They wait
until the hard drive totally dies (they don’t back up at all) and end up
with catastrophic data loss. That is pretty much the norm with Joe users.

Assuming a slightly more advanced user, Windows does have a file migration
and settings utility when moving between versions that I do not believe has
an analog in Linux. Now you could say it’s not needed as it’s ‘so simple’,
but again it isn’t to most people. In fact, I would argue that even the
Windows Migration utility is beyond many users and would probably be a waste
of code under Linux. Let Joe be Joe, if he wants to learn more he will,
otherwise that’s what the GS and other PC repair services are for.

15

On 08/20/2009 smpoole7 wrote:
> Bottom line: ANYONE … and I mean, ANYONE … who thinks that
> Windows is easier to install on the average PC, with the average
> hardware, should be (1) wrapped in a clean, white straitjacket and
> (2) quietly led away so that they don’t drool on the carpet.

That’d be me, then.

XP can be installed by pretty much anybody who doesn’t need his fingers to count to ten. Same for openSUSE, Ubuntu…
The problems arise when you have driver problems.

Windows: You’ll have to use the vendor CD in order to get the basics running (like NICs) so you can get to the hardware vendor’s page and download the latest drivers. Unless we are talking about Mainboard related stuff (which can be complicated to find), everybody will be able to find the drivers for his video card, TV card, whatever.
Linux: If the driver isn’t in the kernel, you’re doomed.

Uwe

16

Unfortunately the main board stuff has bit my wife’s brother company (that runs only windoze pcs) a few times. Their file server kept hiccuping all the time, and they asked me to look at it. Of course it was running windoze … Turns out it WAS a windoze driver problem for the hard drive. The mother board was NOT a mainstream motherboard, and I had a night mare finding the right driver.

I’ve watched a few friends totally hoze a windoze install, where supposedly it was easy just to insert the manufacturer’s cd … NOT … so much for being easy. … turns out they had to go to the web site to get an update to the CD … and those who did have to only insert the CD sometimes, could NOT find the correct directory on the CD … Easy ? No Way. At least not for them.

… then there are the windoze manufacturer’s CDs that have windoze spyware on them …

17

Anyone that uses Linux for a while knows how much easier it is to install software under Linux.

I get annoyed when I have to reinstall Windows on a computer. I always find that it takes close to a week before I am happy with a fresh install computer. I would keep having to add another program as I thought of it, or go and change some settings.

With OpenSuse I can reinstall and keep my home directory. those little tweaks you do in to make a program run the way you want can be kept through an install.

Plus getting multimedia and many things to work is way better.

But to me the biggest thing I love with Linux is it doesn’t have to lock files down for no reason. As an example the other day while I was watching a video on YouTube that I wanted to keep ( using the Opera browser ). I found the Flash file in my tmp folder, and moved it over to a folder on home where I would keep it, and renamed the file, while the file was still downloading and playing in the browser.

Anyone that works in the windows world knows you can’t do stuff like this. Times where you wanted to move a file and it would say you can’t it had some lock put on it. And as you dig deeper to figure out it was actually Windows explorer that had that lock on an avi file keeping you from moving that file as you were trying to move it.

Then once I have the file it plays easily in Kaffeine, and likely smplayer will play it too without the need for an flv player ( something I needed in the win world to play a flash file that was local content )

Linux is way easier once you learn to use it. Sometimes as you start to use it you get confused by the difference in how it works compared to Windows but once you figure out how it works it is incredibly simple and straightforward

18

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 17:32:00 +0000, Uwe Buckesfeld wrote:

> Linux: If the driver
> isn’t in the kernel, you’re doomed.

Not strictly true (but not generally false, either) - fglrx and the ATI
binary-only drivers are examples of drivers not in the kernel and where
you’re not doomed (at least not entirely <g>).

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Moderator

19

I’ve installed different versions of Windows a few times (XP and Vista, in the latter case from the DVD I got with my laptop from Fujitsu-Siemens), and a few Linux distributions on 2 different computers (and a few more under emulators or VMware stuff). Overall I think my experience has just generally been “good” to “a little patchy” with any of these OSes, though more has worked “out of the box” with Linux than with Windows, presumably due to the drivers being already compiled into the kernel.

(re)installing Windows Vista from my manufacturer’s disc, I was in a position to just nuke the whole system, since I’d backed up all the stuff I cared to keep, so I can’t comment on installation issues like partitioning, beyond the simplest case of simply “use whole of first HD, and make the whole second one be an NTFS partition too”. I seem to remember it going pretty smooth, nice and easy. Once installed, getting the basic drivers was easy enough, since the driver disc included was pretty much automated. However, it left me with a horrible issue which could only be fixed by installing an additional (and non too obvious) patch/hack or god-knows-what from Fujitsu’s site to force Windows to recognise that the HDDs were capable of a certain advanced feature (something to do with enhanced caching functionality I believe). Without this patch, there were constant issues with popping, skipping audio, stuttering visuals, and generally poor performance whenever GUI actions like moving a window or scrolling a page were performed. I have never had this issue on this machine when installing and running Linux.

Windows XP: similarly easy installation, but getting SMP support up seemed a bit obscure. I can’t remember how hard it actually was, but it kind of seemed odd it didn’t “just work” since I was used to Vista running on the laptop (I know it’s because XP predates common consumer market use of “dual cores” and such-like, so it’s not it’s fault, but the point stands since it still is an issue with a post-install on XP, and one you might not actually perform if you don’t realise that this is the case). Not terrible though. I think there were some other issues throughout the place which I had to clean up/find proper drivers for, but nonetheless not too bad.

Linux distros: I installed variously- Ubuntu, Vector, Gentoo, possibly Slackware (or at least an attempt at it, I don’t remember) on a rather old box (128 MB of mismatched RAM sticks, Cyrix MII or MIII or something of that sort- 233Mhz, or 333Mhz, that kind of range). Really, no problem installing, or with any of the hardware- that said there wasn’t anything special there to support, no hardware acceleration to speak of, no net connection, all very generic. But it did all work quite nicely, installation never became a pain. On my laptop I’ve installed Ubuntu and, of course OpenSUSE. Ubuntu was a while ago, and I did have some issues after installation, mostly with my ati card and also some sound issues to do with not being able to use the function keys or the volume wheel to control volume. Also, it tended to crash my laptop when it tried to go into power saving “sleep” like modes. OpenSUSE, again, easy installation (though maybe it wouldn’t have been so easy without my prior experience, I don’t know), but some issues after installation. Fixed most very quickly, some remain. Can’t get 3D acceleration working, but that’s probably mainly because my card is now pretty bust and tends to crap out if any actual work is asked of it, usually taking the OS with it, whether Windows or Linux. Fn keys mostly worked out of the box, and sleep mode may or may not work (not totally sure if it does it) but at least it doesn’t actually crash anymore.

So yes, overall I think there’s no clear winner for me, or at least for the hardware I’ve actually tried, in ease of installation- except for personal preference, and there I’d have to say Linux for the most part, mostly because I just generally feel more able to tackle the sorts of problems I get in Linux, since the solvable ones often boil down to changing some plain-text configuration file somewhere, which is relatively simple, so long as I can discover what file and what option I need :wink: That, or possibly have to “downgrade” to a different version or simple things like that, and even other problems like broken installs seem manageable with a decent package manager which knows what’s installed, what depends on what etc. On Windows, the solution can often involve things like registry editing, or hacks which work around software’s issues- or installing an old dll which MS have deemed is no longer needed on Vista, despite the fact that they’ve gone to great lengths to include a very thorough compatibility layer for XP and other predecessors. Sure, they can’t include them all, but some core ones for XP, which is quite recent, really ought to be there. The solution as it stands seems to be to seek out a third party site who are trustworthy enough to get something like this from, and download it seperately. They could at least include an official download somewhere for all these old but clearly still in use- at least by programs I use regularly- libraries. Maybe they do, but if they do I haven’t yet seen it.

Different people with different hardware can of course have wildly differing experiences. Someone with a box built with components carefully chosen for good Linux support will probably have an extremely easy install of any of the better desktop distros, with support for their hardware out of the box, whilst a windows install on their same machine may well be followed by a driver hunt. Then again, a machine with poorly supported components for Linux (but with Windows drivers available) will be the opposite case- easier (though not without driver hunting) post-install.

But I would agree absolutely with the point about perceived “ease of use” being based more on personal experience and acquired skills. It’s the stance I’ve had for years, and it’s certainly helped me when dealing with weirdness in any system. It’s easy when you know how.

Man, this was a long post. Apologies for the wall of text!**

20

Hmmm … that reads like me and the machines in our apartment, described to a “T”.