Letter to openSUSE project managers

English Open Chat
1

What were you thinking to release this with the cr*ppiest video driver by default without providing any options to install pre-compiled video drivers or fall back to whatever automatically or with minimum Linux knowledge.

Well, I used Suse from 9.2 and have never seen such lock-ups and crashes ever since. I know how to compile and install nvidia drivers myself, I’m just too lazy now. But this post is NOT about myself. It’s about those new to Linux who want to try openSUSE and won’t touch Linux for a long time if ever, or in the best case try another distro.

Was that part of the deal to put MS PMs at Novell to let it die faster or what?

I install the system, make a couple of clicks and them it bombs on me! The only option is hard reset. Okay, a few more minutes and then boom! Again! Crp!!! Alright, one more time, 5-10 min and then lock-up again. F**!

You know what, new users don’t care how great it can be if it works. But to stuff it up so badly for the release without a quick and easy fall back option or not making the nvidia drivers available at the time of the release is the biggest dumbest thing you’ve done since 9.2 (at that time compiling the drivers was the only option and you knew from the beginning what you were in to, but at least the default 2D driver always worked.).

Yeah, I know, I’ve read all those release notes and instructions on how to fix those issues. I have. Mine works fine now. “Users can expect to see improved hardware support with the 2.6.34 Linux kernel and updated graphics drivers.” - yeah, right.

Everything else does work great in this release. Fine. But if the system freezes every 5-10 min who cares?

PS. Please don’t suggest to me how to fix these problems, I know how. But for the future, for the new users’ sake, it’s better to wait a few days but make it ready for the rest of us, not just “geeks” as Linux is generally thought of, but this release truly supports this notion.

Thanks for your attention, my relief valve is now reset.

2

Return to sender: Incorrect address. Maybe try the Mailing lists.

3

On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 03:16:01 +0000, linuxoidoz wrote:

> But
> for the future, for the new users’ sake, it’s better to wait a few days
> but make it ready for the rest of us, not just “geeks” as Linux is
> generally thought of, but this release truly supports this notion.

Please submit a bug - the openSUSE Project managers generally don’t read
here, so if you want your message to get to the right people, a bug or a
feature request is the way to go.

Also, please note the forums use terms and conditions - swearing like
this contravenes the T&Cs of the forum; don’t let it happen again.

Thanks

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

4

This is a General Chit-Chat, not a request for help. If I knew the PM’s email address I would have written to them. Just hoped someone from Novell reads this.

What bug? The whole new driver is just… a bad piece of software. :slight_smile: What feature request? The only request is not to stuff it up so badly next time.

I couldn’t see anything in the T&C link about swearing, only this “religious or political comment is not allowed”. And how else can you show the real frustration and anger? The forum’s set of emoticons can’t pass the true emotions… but seriously, hey, sorry for the colloquial expressions. :wink:

5

linuxoidoz wrote:
> I know how to compile and install nvidia drivers myself, I’m just
> too lazy now.

lazy folks should expect poor results when operating industrial
machinery (or software) without paying attention and following the
instructions…

loss of limbs/eyes/life (or “then boom!”) can be expected!

if you wish otherwise it is best to stick to game systems like
Playstation/Wii/Redmond…

ymmv

–
Enjoy Packman’s benefits? Show your appreciation by donating at
http://se.unixheads.org/?donate

DenverD
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]

6

On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 04:46:02 +0000, linuxoidoz wrote:

> What bug? The whole new driver is just… a bad piece of software. :slight_smile:
> What feature request? The only request is not to stuff it up so badly
> next time.

If it’s a “bad piece of software”, then there are problems with it, so
identify those problems and file bugs outlining those problems. That’s
how to get things fixed - saying “it’s bad” isn’t specific or
actionable. If you want something done, that level of specificity is
required.

> I couldn’t see anything in the T&C link about swearing, only this
> “religious or political comment is not allowed”. And how else can you
> show the real frustration and anger? The forum’s set of emoticons can’t
> pass the true emotions… but seriously, hey, sorry for the colloquial
> expressions. :wink:

Frustration and anger aren’t particularly helpful in resolving the
problems you’re having. Stick to the facts, ask questions, and that’ll
get you what you really are looking for. Even then, though, there are
ways to express frustration that don’t involve the use of such language
(I have been known to be frustrated from time to time myself).

As for the T&C that apply here (from the link to the Legal Documents,
which are part of the T&C:

"Rules of conduct

…]

You agree not to post or transmit through this web site any material or
content that violates or infringes in any way the rights of others or
solicits, encourages or promotes the use of illegal substances or
activities, which is unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing,
defamatory, libelous, derogatory, invasive of privacy or publicity
rights, vulgar, obscene, bigoted or hateful, profane, scandalous,
pornographic, indecent or other-wise objectionable, gives rise to civil
or criminal liability or otherwise violates any local, state or federal
law."

Swearing/cursing would fit any/all of the classifications of “vulgar”,
“obscene”, “profane”, “indecent or otherwise objectionable”.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

7

So your post is about the new user but if you were so concerned about the new user you would have at least told them how to fix the problem you were experiencing.

In abscence of such, your post is nothing more than a pointless rant.

8

Novell sponsors, but does not manage, openSUSE. oS is the community version of SuSE Linux. If there are issues with it, you would be best to contact the developers, but given the tone of your original post, you will probably be ignored.

9

why wasn’t part of the original post removed or edited as it must be in violation of the terms of the forum?

10

On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 16:36:01 +0000, google01103 wrote:

> why wasn’t part of the original post removed or edited as it must be in
> violation of the terms of the forum?

We try to avoid editing posts as much as possible, since edits don’t pass
through to the NNTP side of things.

That’s why I warned the OP. The automatic replacements in general took
care of the objectionable content, though it’s better not to have them
tripped in the first place.

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

11

While personally didn’t have to do too much more to install nvidias drivers, just a couple added steps, I can sympathize with the pains new users will go through, in fact it may likely drive many new users away.

That said, it is not the openSUSE developrs who put these drivers into the kernel, there are built into the the new kernels, so I think this would be more appropriately aimed at the kernel developers, not the openSUSE developers.

Any distro using these new kernels are using the same crappy radeon, nouveau, and intel drivers, and KMS.

Shouldn’t have to blacklist things and tinker with /etc/sysconfig settings to install a different driver.

So here ya go, have fun with these guys, I wish you luck. :wink:

http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/docs/lkml/

12

“…your post is nothing more than a pointless rant” - yes, that’s what it is and it’s in the general chat section, I didn’t post it in the hardware help section, you know.

And most of you missed my point. I’m not talking about problems with the driver. Yes the driver’s stuffed, yes it’s frustrating to get a frozen system, and yes it’s stupid to ask new users to edit the sysconfig if they wouldn’t even know what it is.

My point was, they should have waited until at least nvidia pre-compiled drivers are available and there’s no automatic fall-back to the old (fb or whatever that was) video driver.

Put yourselves in a new user’s position - you read all that hoo-ha on the internet about a new super duper allegedly user-friendly and easy-to-install and all Linux release, you burn a disk and install it and then Bam! it freezes, and freezes so badly only hard reset helps. Ok, you may try it 1 or max 2 more times and then you swear like hell, throw the disk in a rubbish bin and never touch it again. How many would be persistent? Well, maybe 5% will try to find something on the internet, out of those maybe 5% will succeed changing the nouveau driver to the old one, and maybe another 1% out of those will be stubborn enough to find out how to compile the driver… as long as their system doesn’t freeze in the mean time.

13

I disagree, because well, what if no one ever gets around to making “pre-compiled” drivers.

Waiting to release for a company to do such a thing is ludicrous, if that was the standard of waiting for a release then there would never be any releases.

If they waited for realtek to pre-compile a driver for a specific release well we would never get a release.

I have been compiling my own realtek drivers for a while now, should opensuse not release until that driver is pre-compiled?

Should they wait for every possible hardware manufacture out there to to do this?

Nope absolutely not.

The final release is always out before nvidia driver repos, has been that way as long as I can remember.

14

Pre-compiled drivers are only a part of the problem,

  1. nouveau driver locks up the system (or whatever locks up the system because of the nouveau driver)
  2. there’s no automatic or easy fall-back to the old driver, no Sax
  3. there’re no pre-compiled drivers
  4. you also need to know how to uninstall the nouveau driver
  5. you need to know how to and where to edit system config files
  6. it’s nearly impossible to download and compile drivers as the system can lock up in the middle of download or compilation (mine locked up once when I was simply browsing on youtube, who knows, maybe it was because of Flash HW acceleration, maybe if you just read text it may be fine, there’s so many variables…)

So, it not just one, but all of these. And NEW Linux users will know NOTHING about ANY of these. Again, they read how Linux is finally ready to replace windows, that there’s no need to compile anything and use the Shell and so on. And what do they need to do to use the system? To compile a driver. Or to edit some weird system settings config files. Have you seen this: http://wiki.opensuse.org/SDB:Configuring_graphics_cards - this must be a big turn off for new users.

“what if no one ever gets around to making “pre-compiled” drivers” - well, they should. A video driver is the main driver for your system. If you can’t see your screen (or if the system locks up because of it) - there’s not much a new user can do. Unless they’re patient enough, have another computer or dual boot. All sound, printer, wireless drivers are secondary, at least you can see what you’re doing, at least you can move your mouse around.

From another post:
“When I first installed 10.1 on the same hardware, I had to play around to get it to work.
Then 10.3 to 11.2 improved every time.
Now with 11.3, I have a problem!”

Exactly!

15

Or at least the old driver should have still been a default one and the nouveau as an option for those who know what they’re doing. Not the other way around.

Why include incomplete/buggy/experimental but most important piece of software by default in a release? It doesn’t scare ME, but it sure will be seen by new users as worse than Vista.

We’re not talking about lack of 3D or missing features or frame rates here. We’re talking about a total system lock up. This should not happen with releases these days.

16

There’s so much really good information there on how to fix this sort of issues. Category:SDB:Hardware - openSUSE - pick any. The problem is they have to read it first.

You know what my impressions were when I first tried 9.2? Well, I had XP and everything worked, then I installed Suse and it was stuffed. Alright, to hell with it, I’ll keep using XP. I went back to windows 3-5 times before I finally returned and converted. But I was persistant and had to read a lot, and to compile stuff. This was fun. Do you think your grandma will do that? Do you think she would even understand what they’re talking about (e.g. “Add the following line to your ~/.xinitrc file:
nvidia-settings -a InitialPixmapPlacement=2 -a GlyphCache=1” or “set the NO_KMS_IN_INITRD sysconfig variable to yes via yast > System > /etc/sysconfig Editor > System > Kernel > NO_KMS_IN_INITRD”)? I doubt it.

17

Again, you seem to blame openSUSE for the work the kernel developers have done. Then you blame openSUSE because nvidia doesn’t provide specialized drivers fast enough.

Personally we are lucky they do it at all considering the fact that there are hundreds of Linux distributions, and they choose opensuse as one of the few they make a specialized for. They certainly don’t do it for very many.

As for telling newbies it is a “windows replacement” only silly people say such things.

It is not a windows replacement, it was never intended as a windows replacement. It is simply an “alternative” that people can choose, if they don’t choose it…Oh well :wink:

18

“blame openSUSE for the work the kernel developers have done” - but it’s the oS kernel developers, right? oS doesn’t use a vanilla kernel.

“blame openSUSE because nvidia doesn’t provide specialized drivers fast enough” - no, I blame the oS (someone must have made that decision, whether it’s the PMs, kernel maintainers etc.) decision to stick a broken video driver in there as a default, not solely for not providing pre-compiled drivers.

“It is not a windows replacement, it was never intended as a windows replacement. It is simply an “alternative” that people can choose” - totally agree, bad choice of words on my part. But the rest still stands.

Anyway, the point is openSUSE 11.3 should NOT have been released with the default nouveau drivers.

19

I think the driver sucks too, but again, the kernel developers put it there. It is not a “module”, it is built into the kernel.

You can either complain to the proper developers, the kernel developers, or better yet, go every distribution forum using the new 2.6.34 kernel or later and complain to them, because they all will be having the same issues.

20

Indeed, thats the case! And working thru the Linux maze of documentation can without question be daunting. At least I have ALWAYS found it daunting.

However IF you had read the Release Notes, which are presented DURING the install, you would have read to use the “nomodeset”. OR if you had asked on our forum BEFORE installation on anything to watch out for, you would have received some polite advice.

Reference a grandma typing things, my mother can not install any OS. OpenSUSE is no different there. My mother (and in fact MOST of my friends) survive STRICTLY by their OS being OEM (ie installed for them before purchase). Ask most people I know to install an operating system, and they will shake their head and walk away.

… but please, if you find the “nomodeset” and other work around suggestions provided to not help you, please start a new thread asking for help. There are volunteers who would like to help you. I want to emphasize that. We are here to HELP. So please start a thread asking for help.

Reference posting a “letter” for SuSE-GmbH managers of openSUSE (or for their Novell bosses) you are in truth wasting your time here. We are a support forum. We work around problems. We try to find solutions for users problems in a delivered openSUSE. We don’t code the openSUSE Linux OS. We don’t package the OpenSUSE Linux OS. We do NOT have any “special say” in the openSUSE Linux OS that is different from yours. We have the IDENTICAL way of proposing changes that you have.

To get maximum attention for the understandable points that have annoyed you, the best place is the mailing lists, or openFate, or a bug report. Complaining here amongst those of us who only provide support, won’t help your point much (in fact probably won’t help at all).