KDE 4.5, Where have they all gone Wrong? - One Person's Sad Opinion ...

KDE 4.5 looks good and works well and is a testimonial to a lot of hard work done by many people. Even so, what is KDE 4 really trying to be and who is it trying to serve? The better it gets, the more it seems to leave solid performing programs behind with flashy looking replacements that don’t really work properly.

Multimedia seems very hard hit to me. Compare such applications as Kaffeine from KDE3 and KDE4. Kaffeine from KDE4 is a joke and not worthy to even be included in the Desktop set. Same goes for poor applications like KsCD, perhaps no one will use audio CD’s in the future, at least not anyone that has more than one optical drive in their system. Don’t try to play any sort of Multimedia that uses Dolby Digital 5.1, cause you can’t get it to work with KDE4 core applications like Kaffeine. You have to pull out the independent apps to get that to work.

And what about Power Management? Seems like in KDE 4.5, CPU scaling is too complicated for the average Linux user and should be removed to save us from ourselves. I think KDE 4.5 is a very nice pretty looking Desktop, but its innards are dieing a slow death. What will we have left by the time we get to version 5.0 I wonder? A gold brick perhaps …

As a user of KDE 4.5 and not a contributor, do I have any sort or right to complain in any way? I think the short answer is; if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Maybe we need to find out how to help and not to complain. But I am not sure what I can do to help. What is your advise?

I welcome your comments…

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 02:36:02 +0000, jdmcdaniel3 wrote:

> As a user of KDE 4.5 and not a contributor, do I have any sort or right
> to complain in any way? I think the short answer is; if you are not
> part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Maybe we need to
> find out how to help and not to complain. But I am not sure what I can
> do to help. What is your advise?

Submit bugs and open requests in openFATE - that’s the best way anyone
can contribute (but before opening bugs or feature requests, search first
to see that your report isn’t already in the system).

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

I think, as far as your remark about if you have any right to complain…, I think that you do. See, since you are a user, you are testing, using, KDE 4.x in real life situations, and subsequently have the right to file bug reports and feature requests. Now here is the tricky part. How to distinguish between user error and a real bug. Make sure you are up to date with how to use the given app. If the given app is not performing as documented, then file a bug report. If the given app is performing as it should, but lacks certain features, then file a feature request. I would suggest participating on the KDE forums and mailing lists. You may want to submit feature requests and bug reports directly to KDE. I’d also suggest that you file bug reports with openSUSE and feature requests using openFate.

Submit bugs and open requests in openFATE - that’s the best way anyone
can contribute (but before opening bugs or feature requests, search first
to see that your report isn’t already in the system).

Jim

Jim Henderson

Well said…

So unless you do the above - then your thread here is just as you describe in the title.

First off, I do thank everyone for taking time to reply and surely some sort of reports can be filed. In the cases of KDE4 apps Kaffeine and the Power Management functions, features and function have been removed, but I am not sure this is a “bug”. In the case of KsCD, features have been removed and a few bugs have been added, so it does qualify for some sort of report I agree.

The fact is I can still install Kaffeine and KsCD from KDE3 while using YaST Power Management, all while running KDE 4 to get the best of both worlds. I can also recall telling someone else to stop swimming upstream and switch to KDE 4, in a previous KDE 3 to KDE 4 debate. Even so, I am not seeing anyone else being all that concerned about making KDE 4 better and living up to the KDE 3 quality. There is no doubt that some things are better in KDE 4, but at what expense?

I value you opinions, so keep them coming and Thank You,

Someone already started a bug report. As soon as I can collect some more info, I’ll add my 2 cents. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=244674

Out of curiosity, what’s wrong with Kaffeine 4?

It has the normal playlist functionality, plays more or less anything and supports DVB and subtitling, what more do you need exactly?

Have you ever seen Quicktime X? It barely has anything but the basics and everyone seems to be happy with it.

Opensuse 11.3 with Gnome works wonderful! Why worry about what is “wrong” with KDE 4? Life is too short!

I understand the comment, but I can’t see the point of making it when there has been no attempt to deal with the actual concerns the OP has with the state of KDE4. There is no point in James filling out forms yet, given the uncertain tone of his post, the question marks, and the apparent need to gain some consensus from other opinions.

I haven’t installed 4.5 on openSUSE 11.3, but did experience it after updating a PCLOS 2010 install that I infrequently play with. PCLOS has implemented KDE4 but kept the appearance of its DE as similar as possible to its KDE3 predecessor. However, I got the same feeling James did on e.g. power management. Even before that, I wondered about this question, even in KDE3 times:

There seemed to be a lot of overlap in KDE multimedia apps, for example. KDE3 seemed to configure and control peripherals - why should a DE do that when you also have the linux kernel (the real operating system), YaST, and Xorg. I thought that’s what operating systems were for, to control and manage I/O. KDE seemed to be too involved everywhere. No wonder it needed to start again with KDE4.

Why do you think that cpu scaling configuration should be done by KDE? To me, it belongs at a lower level and in YaST. What exactly has been removed from Kaffeine (in KDE4.4.4?)?

Of course KDE4 placed a burden of rewrite and an opportunity to redesign, on the application developers. Look at what happened to AmaroK. Under KDE3 it was feature rich, but its newer online interfaces didn’t work so well and the GUI wasn’t that well structured after many additions. Under KDE4 it is still missing the ability to playback from CD directly, it’s serious work they don’t want to do and believe the collection should be ripped to HD, but they have improved and updated online interfaces that appeal to a newer generation of users.

Are you expecting 4.5.x to be as mature as 3.5.x was? You may be disappointed, it may take longer for apps to develop all previous function. You will need to follow the KDE community discussions to know if those features are even in the pipeline.

Funny, I got the impression that James was totally a KDE die-hard. And whilst I’m sure his points raised has genuine motivation, I’m not so sure James is advocating kde apostasy. Rather, that he intended to encourage a healthy debate. Though personally I feel these issues have been discussed before, mostly.
Only by bug reporting and wishlisting will something really get done. And that means going upstream, not just to Novell.

Funny, I got the impression that James was totally a KDE die-hard. And whilst I’m sure his points raised has genuine motivation, I’m not so sure James is advocating kde apostasy. Rather, that he intended to encourage a healthy debate. Though personally I feel these issues have been discussed before, mostly.
Only by bug reporting and wish listing will something really get done. And that means going upstream, not just to Novell.
caf4926 as usual, you are on target. I am indeed a die-hard KDE fan. I am wishing to encourage a healthy debate. I do not wish for the downfall of KDE, but I am not sure all of the things that need to be said have been spoken just yet. As for what has been said before, one would be hard pressed to beat the coverage that has been spoken in the openSUSE forums, but it would be nice to try.

I do have issues with the final product that is called KDE 4.5. Exactly how you get there can be up for debate as is the present state of polish and features that exist as KDE 4.5. Still, if you are coming out with a new product, it is not time to throw out the good to be replaced by very well written and pretty looking, nothing?

OK, so what is my beef then that might remotely warrant a new thread on KDE 4? The main issue in my mind is Multimedia support and not just being able to play a MP3 file where bigger issues than KDE 4 exist. Look around your house and what do you see? A TV, DVD player, receiver, speakers, maybe even an old tape player, some CD’s and your computer. Why can’t your computer and openSUSE be the center of this world? Why is it not important to play DVD’s in full Dolby Digital from your computer; in 5.1 or 7.1 sound? Why can’t you buy that HP Multimedia Server running openSUSE and KDE 4.5, ready to run your entire system? So I could go on, but this very important aspect, which was dealt with in KDE 3, seems to have been misplaced somehow in KDE 4. Again, you can load and run KDE 3 apps in KDE 4, and get your old support back, for now.

It does come back to what is your computer really for? Internet? EMail? Document Creation? Social Media? openSUSE and KDE 4.5 surely can cover the bases on this, but why not real Multimedia support as well? It is the one major issue I have a problem with using KDE 4 and which is not better than what we had in KDE 3.

As always I request your consideration and thoughts on the subject.

Thank You,

caf4926, I agree that in this case, requirements/wishlisting probably belong upstream, particularly as we learned from the openSUSE KDE #1 strategy proposal that currently KDE is close to a vanilla implementation with just a little customization. Whenever that’s been discussed in the past, some KDE die-hards (present company excluded) on this forum have claimed lots of customization from openSUSE.

He didn’t advocate abandoning KDE. Nevertheless, it would be nice to see other KDE die-hards questioning some of these arguable product shortfalls here and elsewhere before narrowing the debate with “go report the bugs and feature requests”. That has definitely “been discussed before” ad nauseam and doesn’t change, whereas the KDE apps feature sets seems to change with each release. :slight_smile:

Whether I install openSUSE Vanilla Gnome or openSUSE Vanilla KDE I have the same lack of multi-media support.

Strictly speaking: Multi-media support has nothing to do with Gnome or KDE, but rather the distribution of said support in a Legal world of nonsense :wink:

There are of course, distributions (some already mentioned, Eg; PCLOS) that have modified versions of the applications you mention, with multimedia working OOTB.

I am as to say a KDE “die hard” fan, but I am not a programmer, not an IT professional, neither did my qualifications include programming (leave aside some small statistical stuff). Still, since I am using KDE3.5 still, my view might me interesting as well.

So I do use still 3.5, is this because I think 4.x is no good? No. Is it because I want to visit my friend Lazarus and therefore I enjoy riding dead horse? Neither.

The current reason is that, for the time being, the 3.5.10 implementation of KDE fits in comparison best my current needs of functionality and stability. This wasn’t always so, when I think back, when an update from 3.1 to 3.2 was available, one was more than willing to update. But at the time there was no viable alternative for somebody who wanted to use KDE but wasn’t satisfied with the change. Now, THIS point changed and funnily enough a lot of people who where convinced that fear of change was the problem here, nearly “religiously fanatic” tried to push users who did not want to change …to make them change (remember "KDE3 repositories are not maintained anymore and the consequent “apocalipto” scenario for users who still insisted?). But THIS was not the point.

I tried 4.4 and the 11.3 on several recent installs I did to friends and “casual Linux victims”.
On my own PC I noticed that mainly (with some drawbacks in functionality) a non very advanced user will find now an acceptable system. ESPECIALLY if he did not experience the final status of KDE3.
Now the question if I well understand is: quo vadis KDE? The fact is that the perception of the MEANS of the DE is IMO totally different, when it comes to aspects as usability, completeness, ergonomics.
The KDE developer appear (in my eyes, please, this is a totally personal perception, and should be accepted as such), as programming a technical showcase. Currently they are interested in bringing the state of art of desktop programming to a technical level where they think to be able to achieve excellence. Therefore the change to Akonadi, the semantic desktop, the try to centralize the user data and part of the application functions into the DE to make it easier to create entirely new interfaces and to avoid duplication (currently a big problems of nearly all DEs). Now in all this the aspects that for us user are of uttermost importance, like stability, usability and completeness are absolutely by-products. Because what matters first is to get the fundamental architectural showcase running. The will surely come forward and may also faster and more interesting then ever before, but the way is still long I guess. (As it was long with KDE3 by the way).

All this raises in my eyes the impression that the problem is that the KDE developers have been “overrun” by the user inflow and the success of KDE3. While the KDE2 userbase were nearly all hardcore programmers and IT enthusiasts and barely normal professionals (leave aside even “noop users”) in the search for a stable and functional desktop, the current KDE3 and 4 user was (is) much more often that they expected a user that is not willing to beta test all the time. Neither for money nor for free. S(he) went away from a commercial environment disgusted by instability and was satisfied, expecting that the KDE3 stability status was something “permanent” and that regressions in functions where improbable, if not illogic.
And now these users are faced with the long startup curve of 4.x. Linux has success, and the user base changes with success.

I personally expect to change to 4.6 in march. I will have an outdated system by the time. But if I see that it will not be functional than I may learn how to compile a new kernel, leave aside that I will have to maintain some critical app. I hope I will not have to do it.

When I look at 11.3 I do not know if to blame OpenSUSE or KDE for the things I find unacceptable or incomprehensible:

  • blue-tooth still not working (that makes 11.1, 11.2, 11.3 - and they talk about cloud strategy (shake head)
  • Networkmanager and VPN support are (for what I have tried) still not at hight
  • DVD/CD support of some applications (like Kaffeine) missing, this is not nice (but maybe this is a "intellectual property"
    problem? Or hard and therefore slowing down - yes - the showcase)
  • a lot of personalizations and tune and tweaks have been suppressed (claiming nobody used them)

But overall I did not find the applications this kind of disaster, so it promises well. It is just that everything is still unbelievably provisional, and nearly morphing. Every editions some very basic things change a lot (did I forget about KMail address list missing - but Kmail was pushed forward nevertheless for the sake of testing Akonadi integration and migration - yes - the showcase). Remember widgets management, same issue. By itself it is not bad to change, but I personally miss an understanding where the desktop wants to go esthetically, ergonomically and usability wise. Where it wants to go technically has been explained quite well.
And the more this goes on, the more I have the impression that the very team was only interested in the technical aspect but had no vision at all. Maybe they follow the views of the former chancellor Helmut Schmidt: who has visions should go to see a psychiatrist rotfl!. Seriously, it is IMO NOT just a problem of bugs and feature request, but a question of “quo vadis”. And I have some doubts that users will have a lot of say in it.

I hope this was not too much OT. And sorry for the long post. It is Friday. :wink:

And your KDE3 is a day behind my KDE4 (Saturday). Is that a bug or a feature? :smiley:

LOL, that’s sign of my exhaustion.lol! Let us take it as a feature, I am sitting in a time machine. Only that I would WISH it would be still Friday, but it is already Saturday, yeap, they changed the position of the “backwards” button…again. :wink: Greetings.

Glad my KDE4 isn’t running fast then. I think some of your KDE 4 observations help to explain why openSUSE 11.3 is getting some very good reviews lately, i.e. the technical showcase and its appeal to the less-advanced user, in addition to the more established user base of previous releases.

Talking about fast.
I do have to say, for me at least (and perhaps yourself it seems) KDE4 is every bit as quick as KDE3 ever was and that has been the case for quite some time.

I would say so too. I did have everything, but not the idea of KDE4 being slow. For me the only issues are feature completeness and (still eventhough a lot less) stabiltity. Then I discovered some apps that for me would be real killer applications like “calibre” that I wish would be available in KDE3. A lot of people mess up in fact x-server, sax and driver related issues with KDE problems.

Agreed, but it only became clear to me when testing 11.3 milestones (KDE 4.4.3 IIRC) on my older single cpu (1.8GHz) desktop pc, where the performance improvement over 11.2 was significant. At least as fast as KDE 3.5.10, but much smoother all round. Interesting coincidence you mentioning it as I was just reading this KDE SC 4 page on Wikipedia, that explains the progress from KDE 4 beginning up to SC 4.5, then SC 4.6 is scheduled for Jan 2011. The name change and Qt’s performance improvements came with 4.4.

Reading that, the improved multimedia experience James is looking for will have to come from the KDE4 apps e.g. Kaffeine, Phonon and its backends such as Xine, which presumably uses ALSA and its device drivers. Where exactly in that chain the shortfall lies, I don’t exactly know.