Moved to General Chitchat as not being a technical help question, but sort of philosphical exchange on how a rolling release should roll.
Hi
Again, check the ML as to how and why there was the likes of the glibc and the move to gcc12. Since your a different distro user, perhaps check the default glibc and gcc on those and report back, will be interested to see. With gcc changes come new/improved features as well as additional hardening of the code.
AFAIK, they should be removed after the dup is done;
du -sh /var/cache/
130M /var/cache/
Have you never noticed that in TW the average number of new packages exceeds the average number of packages to be removed? It’s my theory that TW splits srpms into a greater number of rpms than do other distros. If you wish to compare, try comparing also space consumed by the OS filesystem(s), not just the package count. Start with YaST, which is rather unique to openSUSE:
# inxi -S
System:
Host: gb970 Kernel: 5.16.15-1-default arch: x86_64 bits: 64
Console: pty pts/0 Distro: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20220515
# cat /usr/local/bin/zypse
#!/bin/sh
zypper --no-refresh se -s $* | egrep -v 'debug|devel|srcp|openSUSE-20' | egrep 'x86|noarch'| sort
# zypse yast | wc -l
201
# zypse perl | wc -l
1473
# zypse python | wc -l
10216
# zypse texli | wc -l
8369
Another thing I think openSUSE does is more often require packages that other distros merely recommend or suggest, such as fonts. cf. bug 992519.
OK, I can do that across a few installs . . . . But, how exactly am I going check those items, command wise, or by navi?
Since I was on my desktop, I booted my '09 MBP running Leap 15.4 and that showed “1219 packages” and the machine running a Core2Duo cpu seemed to rip through the upgrades faster than my '12 desktop . . . 40 mins . . . .
Well, yes, I have noticed that packages to install outnumber those to be removed, I just assumed that “upgrade” means the packages are being changed, rather than deleted. I’ll look into your post when I get a minute.
Interesting how the conversation goes from “join the devs” to “this is chitchat” . . . in regards to “issues with using the system” and so forth . . . .
Hi
With the version option…
TW;
ldd --version
ldd (GNU libc) 2.35
Copyright (C) 2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO
warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
Written by Roland McGrath and Ulrich Drepper.
gcc --version
gcc (SUSE Linux) 12.1.0
Copyright (C) 2022 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO
warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
Since I’m booted in my '09er running Leap 15.4 I checked the commands there:
ldd --version
ldd (GNU libc) 2.31
Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO
warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
Written by Roland McGrath and Ulrich Drepper.
:~> gcc --version
If 'gcc' is not a typo you can use command-not-found to lookup the package that contains it, like this:
cnf gcc
Didn’t seem to find the command??? I’ll check other systems over the next few days, Gecko, LM, Bookworm, Lu Kinetic all coming up . . . this week.
You don’t have “gcc” installed.
When I try that, I see:
% gcc --version
gcc (SUSE Linux) 7.5.0
Copyright (C) 2017 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO
warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
Straight policy without chitchat: Shut up and dup:
**6700K:~ #** journalctl -u dup -q -g Consumed
May 14 08:29:01 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 1.686s CPU time.
May 15 03:07:34 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 2min 2.284s CPU time.
May 15 06:40:24 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 40.367s CPU time.
May 15 07:25:04 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 13.075s CPU time.
May 16 05:49:57 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 15.634s CPU time.
May 16 21:40:59 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 4min 39.034s CPU time.
May 17 03:32:13 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 4.684s CPU time.
May 18 06:09:39 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 1min 33.073s CPU time.
**6700K:~ #**
@karl, et al:
Since we are in “chitchat” I’ll take a moment to say that in no way is “shut up” . . . friendly or helpful to the conversation. Overall, other than “the man with no humor” this forum is outstanding, providing good advice with no “better than thou” attitudes. I know from previous posts that you are a “just the facts” kind of a guy, but “shut up” is just plain offensive and completely unacceptable . . . no other way to look at it.
As I mentioned before, I’m “not new” to TW, I’m not a trained computer person, but I have lots of seat time in linux systems, and when I see a problem I can feel confidant others will have the same experience. I take umbrage with the “we don’t want to hear your whine,” or “this is chitchat,” or finally . . . “shut up.”
I had no stake in the outcomes of the TW “update” . . . I simply wrote down the start and finish times. And, in the middle of the download the machine completely shut down at package #803??? Right now TW is taking more of my and my computer’s time than . . . Sid . . . and that is saying something that is developmentally relevant . . . if anyone is of interest . . . .
Back to the “philosophical” discusion . . . today I’m booted in Gecko TW . . . and in that system zypper showed “1776 packages” to upgrade . . . . I ran it in the GUI console, in the same machine as I did with the plain-jane TW . . . no machine shutdown in the process occurred . . . it took an hour and 52 minutes roughly to complete the update. So, almost the same “two hours” of machine time–in the same machine on two versions of TW.
Part way through when it was installing the 5.17xxx kernel it showed “kernel compiled by gcc 12.1.0” . . . so we know it has gcc.
I’ll likely be back to my TW install by the weekend, when I get there I’ll read through the helpful suggestions offerred in the thread and try to run some of those commands, even the “shut up and run dup” suggestion and I’ll post back on it. But, whether it is heard or not, there are “issues” with using and maintaining TW, issues that reduce the long term usability of it . . . even for a “testing” platform if “problems” with it aren’t able to be acknowledged as something other than “chit-chat.”
**#** journalctl -u dup -q -g Consumed
** #**
Command not recognized??
“Shut up and dup” is a concise description of the policy I implemented on my own machines and those owned by other users and I am maintaining.
If you feel uncomfortable with dist-upgrade use the following approach:
- Run “zypper dist-upgrade --no-confirm --download-only” and repeat until all packages are successfully downloaded.
- Run “zypper dist-upgrade --no-confirm”.
“dup” is the service I use to update my machines:
**erlangen:~ #** systemctl cat dup.*
**# /etc/systemd/system/dup.service**
[Unit]
Description=Dist Upgrade
[Service]
ExecStartPre=/usr/bin/sleep 11
ExecStart=/usr/bin/zypper dist-upgrade --no-confirm --download-only
**# /etc/systemd/system/dup.timer**
[Unit]
Description=Systemd timer to update the system daily with Zypper
[Timer]
OnCalendar=daily
Persistent=true
[Install]
WantedBy=timers.target
**erlangen:~ #**
To apply the upgrade I use:
**erlangen:~ #** systemctl cat dupa.service
**# /etc/systemd/system/dupa.service**
[Unit]
Description=Dist Upgrade, apply download
[Service]
ExecStart=/usr/bin/zypper dist-upgrade --no-confirm
**erlangen:~ #**
The main benefit is:
- Services run in the background.
- Comprehensive journal available.
**erlangen:~ #** systemctl start dup.service
**erlangen:~ #** systemctl status dup
**●** dup.service - Dist Upgrade
Loaded: loaded (/etc/systemd/system/dup.service; static)
Active: **active (running)** since Wed 2022-05-18 22:57:42 CEST; 11s ago
TriggeredBy: **●** dup.timer
Process: 5782 ExecStartPre=/usr/bin/sleep 11 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Main PID: 5790 (Zypp-main)
Tasks: 8 (limit: 4915)
CPU: 1.264s
CGroup: /system.slice/dup.service
├─ 5790 **/usr/bin/zypper dist-upgrade --no-confirm --download-only**
├─ 5809 gpg-agent --homedir /var/tmp/zypp.NiFN4B/zypp-trusted-krhvax2l --use-standard-socket --daemon
├─ 5811 scdaemon --multi-server --homedir /var/tmp/zypp.NiFN4B/zypp-trusted-krhvax2l
├─ 5834 /usr/bin/systemd-inhibit --what=sleep:shutdown:idle --who=zypp --mode=block "--why=Zypp commit running." /usr/bin/cat
└─ 5835 /usr/bin/cat
May 18 22:57:53 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: python3-apparmor-3.0.4-11.1.x86_64.rpm [fertig]
May 18 22:57:53 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket libapparmor-devel-3.0.4-11.1.x86_64 abrufen (31/67), 65,0 KiB ( 50,2 KiB entpackt)
May 18 22:57:53 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: libapparmor-devel-3.0.4-11.1.x86_64.rpm [fertig]
May 18 22:57:53 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket gvfs-1.50.1-1.3.x86_64 abrufen (32/67), 281,0 KiB (970,4 KiB entpackt)
May 18 22:57:54 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: gvfs-1.50.1-1.3.x86_64.rpm .fertig (1,3 MiB/s)]
May 18 22:57:54 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket gvfs-backends-1.50.1-1.3.x86_64 abrufen (33/67), 448,7 KiB ( 1,7 MiB entpackt)
May 18 22:57:54 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: gvfs-backends-1.50.1-1.3.x86_64.rpm [fertig]
May 18 22:57:54 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket libply-splash-core5-0.9.5~git20220412.e960111-5.1.x86_64 abrufen (34/67), 78,1 KiB (142,1 KiB entpackt)
May 18 22:57:54 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: libply-splash-core5-0.9.5~git20220412.e960111-5.1.x86_64.rpm [fertig]
May 18 22:57:54 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket libply-boot-client5-0.9.5~git20220412.e960111-5.1.x86_64 abrufen (35/67), 42,8 KiB ( 26,1 KiB entpackt)
**erlangen:~ #**
Done:
**erlangen:~ #** systemctl status dup
○ dup.service - Dist Upgrade
Loaded: loaded (/etc/systemd/system/dup.service; static)
Active: inactive (dead) since Wed 2022-05-18 22:58:04 CEST; 2min 29s ago
TriggeredBy: **●** dup.timer
Process: 5782 ExecStartPre=/usr/bin/sleep 11 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Process: 5790 ExecStart=/usr/bin/zypper dist-upgrade --no-confirm --download-only (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Main PID: 5790 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
CPU: 1.719s
May 18 22:58:03 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket vlc-qt-3.0.17.4-4.5.x86_64 abrufen (64/67), 1,0 MiB ( 3,1 MiB entpackt)
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: vlc-qt-3.0.17.4-4.5.x86_64.rpm .fertig (896,0 KiB/s)]
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket vlc-codecs-3.0.17.4-4.5.x86_64 abrufen (65/67), 61,7 KiB (150,1 KiB entpackt)
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: vlc-codecs-3.0.17.4-4.5.x86_64.rpm [fertig]
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket vlc-3.0.17.4-4.5.x86_64 abrufen (66/67), 684,5 KiB ( 1,7 MiB entpackt)
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: vlc-3.0.17.4-4.5.x86_64.rpm [fertig]
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen zypper[5790]: Paket vlc-vdpau-3.0.17.4-4.5.x86_64 abrufen (67/67), 62,0 KiB (140,2 KiB entpackt)
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen zypper[5790]: Abrufen: vlc-vdpau-3.0.17.4-4.5.x86_64.rpm [fertig]
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen systemd[1]: dup.service: Deactivated successfully.
May 18 22:58:04 erlangen systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 1.719s CPU time.
**erlangen:~ #**
Applying downloaded stuff:
**erlangen:~ #** systemctl status dupa.service
**●** dupa.service - Dist Upgrade, apply download
Loaded: loaded (/etc/systemd/system/dupa.service; static)
Active: **active (running)** since Wed 2022-05-18 23:01:44 CEST; 6s ago
Main PID: 5915 (Zypp-main)
Tasks: 11 (limit: 4915)
CPU: 4.800s
CGroup: /system.slice/dupa.service
├─ 5915 **/usr/bin/zypper dist-upgrade --no-confirm**
├─ 5934 gpg-agent --homedir /var/tmp/zypp.vDHOEV/zypp-trusted-krgW2gJn --use-standard-socket --daemon
├─ 5936 scdaemon --multi-server --homedir /var/tmp/zypp.vDHOEV/zypp-trusted-krgW2gJn
├─ 5959 /usr/bin/systemd-inhibit --what=sleep:shutdown:idle --who=zypp --mode=block "--why=Zypp commit running." /usr/bin/cat
├─ 5960 /usr/bin/cat
├─ 5961 /bin/bash /usr/lib/zypp/plugins/commit/btrfs-defrag-plugin.sh
├─ 5967 /usr/lib/zypp/plugins/commit/snapper-zypp-plugin
└─ 6764 rpm --root / --dbpath /usr/lib/sysimage/rpm -U --percent --noglob --force --nodeps -- /var/cache/zypp/packages/oss/noarch/akonadi-server-lang-22.04.1-2.1.noarch.rpm
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6763]: **erase akonadi-server-sqlite-22.04.1-1.1.x86_64: success**
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6763]: **install akonadi-server-sqlite-22.04.1-2.1.x86_64: success**
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6763]: **Transaction ID 62855ebe finished: 0**
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen zypper[5915]: (42/69) Installieren: akonadi-server-sqlite-22.04.1-2.1.x86_64 ........fertig]
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6764]: **Transaction ID 62855ebe started**
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6764]: **erase akonadi-server-lang-22.04.1-1.1.noarch: success**
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6764]: **install akonadi-server-lang-22.04.1-2.1.noarch: success**
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6764]: **erase akonadi-server-lang-22.04.1-1.1.noarch: success**
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6764]: **install akonadi-server-lang-22.04.1-2.1.noarch: success**
May 18 23:01:50 erlangen [RPM][6764]: **Transaction ID 62855ebe finished: 0**
**erlangen:~ #** systemctl status dupa.service
○ dupa.service - Dist Upgrade, apply download
Loaded: loaded (/etc/systemd/system/dupa.service; static)
Active: inactive (dead)
May 18 23:02:03 erlangen zypper[5915]: dracut: root=UUID=0e58bbe5-eff7-4884-bb5d-a0aac3d8a344 rootfstype=btrfs rootflags=rw,relatime,ssd,space_cache=v2,subvolid=266,subvol=/@/.snapshots/1/snapshot,subvol=@/.snapshots/1/snapshot
May 18 23:02:03 erlangen zypper[5915]: dracut: *** Stripping files ***
May 18 23:02:03 erlangen zypper[5915]: dracut: *** Stripping files done ***
May 18 23:02:03 erlangen zypper[5915]: dracut: *** Creating image file '/boot/initrd-5.17.7-1-default' ***
May 18 23:02:03 erlangen zypper[5915]: dracut: *** Creating initramfs image file '/boot/initrd-5.17.7-1-default' done ***
May 18 23:02:03 erlangen zypper[5915]: ..fertig]
May 18 23:02:04 erlangen zypper[5915]: Es werden Programme ausgeführt, die immer noch die durch kürzliche Upgrades gelöschten oder aktualisierten Dateien oder Bibliotheken verwenden. Starten Sie die Programme neu, um die Aktualisierungen>
May 18 23:02:04 erlangen zypper[5915]:
May 18 23:02:05 erlangen systemd[1]: dupa.service: Deactivated successfully.
May 18 23:02:05 erlangen systemd[1]: dupa.service: Consumed 17.160s CPU time.
**erlangen:~ #**
Host 6700K performs both steps in a single invocation:
**6700K:~ #** systemctl status dup
○ dup.service - Dist Upgrade
Loaded: loaded (/etc/systemd/system/dup.service; static)
Active: inactive (dead) since Wed 2022-05-18 23:07:46 CEST; 1s ago
TriggeredBy: **●** dup.timer
Process: 28054 ExecStart=**/usr/bin/zypper dup --no-confirm** (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
Main PID: 28054 (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)
CPU: 1min 999ms
May 18 23:07:42 6700K zypper[28054]: dracut: root=UUID=227128c2-8703-4859-a006-30dccf5b299c rootfstype=btrfs rootflags=rw,relatime,ssd,space_cache,subvolid=1727,subvol=/@/.snapshots/1250/snapshot,subvol=@/.snapshots/1250/snapshot
May 18 23:07:42 6700K zypper[28054]: dracut: *** Stripping files ***
May 18 23:07:42 6700K zypper[28054]: dracut: *** Stripping files done ***
May 18 23:07:42 6700K zypper[28054]: dracut: *** Creating image file '/boot/initrd-5.17.7-1-default' ***
May 18 23:07:43 6700K zypper[28054]: dracut: *** Creating initramfs image file '/boot/initrd-5.17.7-1-default' done ***
May 18 23:07:43 6700K zypper[28054]: ..fertig]
May 18 23:07:46 6700K zypper[28054]: Es werden Programme ausgeführt, die immer noch die durch kürzliche Upgrades gelöschten oder aktualisierten Dateien oder Bibliotheken verwenden. Starten Sie die Programme neu, um die Aktualisierungen z>
May 18 23:07:46 6700K zypper[28054]:
May 18 23:07:46 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Deactivated successfully.
May 18 23:07:46 6700K systemd[1]: dup.service: Consumed 1min 999ms CPU time.
**6700K:~ #**
Please be careful using expressions that normally are not allowed on the forums. As you see people can take them personally, even if they are not intended to be so.
I hope the real intention of the expression is clear to all now.
Something is missing (it’s not clear to me).
It is mend to be funny, and it made me smile. 
First of all he did not just say to shut up, your pulling something out of context.
He said shut up and dup. Dup like in zypper dup.
I am also starting to feel old reading this. What is it with people these days that they are so easily offended? 
He is trying to help, by showing how he updates. Why not focus on him trying to help, instead of focusing on two words, that you are not interpreting right.
Maybe this is a language thingy. I speak with a lot of native English speaking people (UK and USA) , and I can assure you, he does not want you to shut up.
Ever heard of the expression break a leg? That does not mean, they want you to break a leg. It means the opposite, its a way of saying good luck. (mostly UK)
My point being, shut up and dup is also an expression. You can’t leave the dup part out, and then claim he wants you to shut up.
Yep . . . still unclear. Asa native English speaking the phrase “shut up” . . . in any context . . . means just that. I understand that non-native English speakers may not understand the total meaning of the words as we do as primary users. Let’s say Karl has a service that he calls “shut up and dup” that he provides to people, for a fee . . . similar to the “shut up and dance” crowd . . . he should have a copyright symbol after the phrase to show benign intent.
Yes, it’s “a language thing” . . . if the words “shut up” are in the sentence . . . adding “dup” into it does not change the meaning . . . which is less than friendly. Among “friends” people might say that, but on a forum . . . the meaning is similar to STFU . . . . So, computer techs might see that phrase as an amusing antidote to the trials and tribulations of coding . . . but, not really.
If you read through the thread you can see the range of comments, some quite helpful, others not so much . . . followed by the “shut up and dup” comment . . . that was the “bridge too far” . . . .
I see that Karl did offer suggestions, and in the past he has been helpful in my other posts, I can appreciate him for that effort, while also pointing out a problem–since we are in “Chit-chat” . . . .
Which, BTW I did post the “results” from his suggested command run in Gecko TW . . . and it showed . . . nothing. So, there must have been some issue with it??
I also stand by my issues with having to process the huge number of packages as “regular maintenance” of a linux OS . . . . Today, in Manjaro a similar “balloon” package upgrade . . . 332!!!
Hi
Because Tumbleweed is always on the bleeding edge of things as well as having additional up to date features with the latest compilers, glibc version, security features (as in not having to create backported patches) etc. It’s just a nature of the beast, so to speak. 12 released snapshots so far this month… it just rolls along like a Tumbleweed…
I see these from February, Reddit - Dive into anything and Reddit - Dive into anything ?
I took that as an allusion to the corresponding “shut up and compute” from quantum physics.
I saw the idea as “don’t worry about what it all means, just do what you need to do”.
Some ramifications: https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.1768652?journalCode=pto
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
—Matthew 25:29.
Feynman!
Now I know why this shut up and dup sounded so familiar, but I could not put my finger on it.
I watch PBS regular and there this is mentioned too, about quantum mechanics.
Just shut up and calculate.
OK, “classical” references . . . in quantum physics education, where the “brilliant but eccentric” professor tells you to “Shut up and calculate” . . . is hilarious . . . ?? Coming from a fine art and then Trad’l Chinese Medicine background nothing connects . . . we didn’t have our teachers saying, “Shut up and paint” . . . “shut up and drink beer” . . . maybe . . . .
Code:
**#** journalctl -u dup -q -g Consumed
** #**
Since nobody got back to me on this, I’m assuming that the command came back empty because I don’t have “dup” installed??? Looking over Karl’s data on dup provides some data, but since we run “zypper dup -l” . . . what is the difference?
It’s possible that the suggestion to “shut up and dup” might be the way to deal with these outrageously huge package upgrades . . . “in the background” might be better than, “in the TTY for two hours” . . . .
But, what am I installing?? “zypper in dup” . . . and then I’m guessing that it has to be programmed to run???
Yep. Get familiar with systemd: Understanding Systemd Units and Unit Files | DigitalOcean Then copy and paste from post #30.
“shut up and drink beer”: Höchstadt