keyboard navigation of forum and the "next" page link image...

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1

I’m a keyboard oriented user. Not because I can’t use a rodent, but because I can’t use one well. My two favorite browsers, Firefox and Opera both have a “link only” text search feature. Both of which only find links and buttons with actual text associated with them. That is it can’t match a text search string with an link labeled only with an image. Unless…

Isn’t there a way of associating some kind of non-visible text based tag {or some such} to an image?? So that, if said text was “Next Page” then typing for example, {in Firefox}

'next page

or in Opera

,next page

would find the link image “next-right.png”, making it possible to advance to the next page via the “<Enter>” key {and subsequent pages via “^G” “<Enter>”}???

Speaking for myself this would save me much aggravation, as I find it sometimes a little difficult to position the rodent pointer on the small image link long enough to “click” on it. I wonder how those with serious dexterity/hand-eye coordination issues handle it?

It’s not so bad if there are no more than 80 posts in a thread cause I can then just use the “last” page link label. (since I already maxed out my posts per page setting at 40)

Is there a way to accomplish/simulate this with the forum’s current design??

2

On 10/13/2012 09:16 PM, jtwdyp wrote:
> Is there a way to accomplish/simulate this with the forum’s current
> design??

it seems that neither browser ‘looks’ at a page’s underlying html source
code…i say so because it seems to be correctly formatted so that the
alternate text of “Next” is included in the image tags along with the
image file name (as it should be, according to my understanding of the
routine way to aid accessibility)…

for example, i find html code sections like this:


<span class="prev_next"><a rel="next"
href="http://forums.opensuse.org/english/other-forums/forums-feedback/forums-comments-suggestions/478348-why-can-we-not-stay-logged-2.html"
title="Next Page - Results 11 to 20 of 44"><img
src="images/pagination/next-right.png" alt="Next" /></a></span>

where you can see the next-right.png imaged button having the alternate
text prescribed to be alt=“Next”

AH!! awaiting better help, instead of searching on


'next page  try  'Next   or  'Next Page
,next page  try  ,Next   or  ,Next Page

–
dd

3

That was what I thought alt text was for too…

Thanks for confirming that alt text was in fact being used. {appropriately in my opinion} AND that I’m not the only one who thought that was what alt text was for…

AH!! awaiting better help, instead of searching on


'next page  try  'Next   or  'Next Page
,next page  try  ,Next   or  ,Next Page

Already tried the capitalized string… But incidentally, there would be no point in adding the 2nd word even if the alt text wasn’t just “Next” As both Opera And Firefox perform the search as you type it in. And on a page where the word “next” didn’t appear in any of the message titals, the search errors out before I finish typing the word “next” or “Next”

However, emboldened by your reply, I’ve posted to support forums for both Opera AND Firefox.
So far the only feedback I got was some Opera user suggested I try it with images disabled. (In which case any alt text asigned to the disabled images are displayed.) Well I tried that, and the link search still failed to find it…

All I know is if major browsers such as Firefox & Opera won’t let me search for link images by the alt text, then all I can do is ask if it would be unreasonable to ask if maybe text based links for next & previous pages could be added at the bottom of any pages containing the non-searchable link images for those functions. You know down by the links that say things like:

Contact Us openSUSE Forums Archive Privacy Statement Terms & Conditions Top

It would, I think, be just as logical as including the “Top” link…

4

jtwdyp wrote:
> dd@home.dk;2495882 Wrote:
>> i say so because it seems to be correctly formatted so that the
>> alternate text of “Next” is included in the image tags along with the
>> image file name (as it should be, according to my understanding of the
>> routine way to aid accessibility)…
> That was what I thought alt text was for too…
>
> Thanks for confirming that alt text was in fact being used.
> {appropriately in my opinion} AND that I’m not the only one who thought
> that was what alt text was for…

I’m not an accessibility expert and I think the response to your
question may not have been as good as possible because:
(1) you posted at the weekend and some of the more expert members don’t
participate much at the weekend so posts tend to get lost in the noise.
(2) part of your question is actually a general one about keyboard
navigation in Firefox and Opera. The experts may not see it in this
particular forum.

I’d suggest that a moderator or the OP either repost/move this topic to
the Applications forum, which may overcome both problems.

Also, where does ‘Next Page’ appear on a forum page? I can’t see it on
any I’ve looked at. This matters because I want to duplicate your problem.

> However, emboldened by your reply, I’ve posted to support forums for
> both Opera AND Firefox.

That’s a good idea. Well done. I found this page

http://www.mozilla.org/access/qa/win-webcontent-kbnav.html#links

which appears to indicate that Mozilla think you should navigate only
with the TAB key, which seems a bit stupid. That page also lists a bug
number 338033 that was opened in 2006 and is still open, so it seems
Mozilla might need their collective a**es kicking about accessibility.

> So far the only feedback I got was some Opera user suggested I try it
> with images disabled. (In which case any alt text asigned to the
> disabled images are displayed.) Well I tried that, and the link search
> still failed to find it…

Since I can’t duplicate your problem, I can only speculate. Is
Javascript involved? If so the rules are very different.

> All I know is if major browsers such as Firefox & Opera won’t let me
> search for link images by the alt text, then all I can do is ask if it
> would be unreasonable to ask if maybe text based links for next &
> previous pages could be added at the bottom of any pages containing the
> non-searchable link images for those functions.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. +1

5

**
That would be my luck… Still it’s better than “no luck at all” {I think}
**

(2) part of your question is actually a general one about keyboard
navigation in Firefox and Opera. The experts may not see it in this
particular forum.
**
Actually I’m familiar with that part. Except that I wasn’t aware that it seems to be broken in both my favorite browsers… with regards to alt text.
**

I’d suggest that a moderator or the OP either repost/move this topic to
the Applications forum, which may overcome both problems.
**
That would be fine by me…
**

Also, where does ‘Next Page’ appear on a forum page? I can’t see it on
any I’ve looked at. This matters because I want to duplicate your problem.
**
Actually I may have muddied the waters a bit when I described the function of the link…
I mostly confined my query to the link with the image filename of “next-right.png” And having the alt text string of “Next” which appears on all but the last page of a range of pages, where the pages can be selected by the numbered links, which appear (for example) {along with the numbered links} to the right of the buttons labeled “+ Post New Thread” within a subforums list of threads. And likewise within the display of a thread {with more replies than is configured to display on one page} where they also will appear to the right of the button labeled “+ Reply to Thread”. But while I didn’t specifically mention the similar link with the image filename of “previous-right.png” and the alt text of “Previous” which appears on all but the first page of such ranges, My query would apply equally well to that link as well.

Visually the image files with these links appear as single triangle shapes pointing to the right {in case of the “Next” link} or to the left {in case of the Previous link}

Hopefully that makes it a little clearer which links within the forum that I’m talking about.:embarrassed:
**

> However, emboldened by your reply, I’ve posted to support forums for
> both Opera AND Firefox.

That’s a good idea. Well done. I found this page

Accessibility QA Test Case: Keyboard Navigation and Visual Focus of Web Content

which appears to indicate that Mozilla think you should navigate only
with the TAB key, which seems a bit stupid. That page also lists a bug
number 338033 that was opened in 2006 and is still open, so it seems
Mozilla might need their collective a**es kicking about accessibility.
**
Now that, I’d like to see…:wink:
**

> So far the only feedback I got was some Opera user suggested I try it
> with images disabled. (In which case any alt text asigned to the
> disabled images are displayed.) Well I tried that, and the link search
> still failed to find it…

Since I can’t duplicate your problem, I can only speculate. Is
Javascript involved? If so the rules are very different.
**
I wouldn’t be surprised. But I HAVE enabled javascript for forums.opensuse.org in opera’s site preferences.{Along with opensuse.org, suse.com, novell.com & esp.novell.com} Basically When a trusted site such as opensuse.org doesn’t work the way I want, the first thing I do in Opera is {Tools>Quick Preferences>Edit Site Preferences} Where I enable javascript… And with Firefox I manage javascript with the add-on “NoScript” Where I would use a hotkey to open a preference dialog for the sites currently wanting javascript access and enable the ones that make sense. {IE since I don’t want facebook to track me I wouldn’t enable that one… Nor in fact will I even use the same browser to access facebook as anything else. That is the only thing I use Chromium for…}
**

> All I know is if major browsers such as Firefox & Opera won’t let me
> search for link images by the alt text, then all I can do is ask if it
> would be unreasonable to ask if maybe text based links for next &
> previous pages could be added at the bottom of any pages containing the
> non-searchable link images for those functions.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. +1

6

On 10/13/2012 09:16 PM, jtwdyp wrote:
> I’m a keyboard oriented user. Not because I can’t use a rodent, but
> because I can’t use one well.

don’t know why i didn’t think of this sooner:

the forums are perfectly navigable without any use of a mouse
whatsoever, if you access via nntp, and use am nntp client which offers
keyboard nav…

if you don’t know about usenet or nntp, you can learn at wikipedia and
to learn how to access these forums via nntp, read here:
http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

–
dd

7

jtwdyp wrote:
> I mostly confined my query to the link with the image filename of
> “next-right.png” And having the alt text string of “Next” which appears
> on all but the last page of a range of pages

Thanks, now I understand.

>> Mozilla think you should navigate only
>> with the TAB key, which seems a bit stupid. That page also lists a bug
>> number 338033 that was opened in 2006 and is still open, so it seems
>> Mozilla might need their collective a**es kicking about accessibility.*
> Now that, I’d like to see…:wink:

I also understand the whole question a lot better now because I have found

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158757

The problem has been recognized since 2002. It hasn’t been fixed yet,
apparently in part because people can’t agree what a better behaviour
would be. Why would you think to type 'next to access that triangle
image, for example?

So I guess you can implement a solution or try to persuade somebody else
to write one.

On a more positive note, as a result of your question I discovered that
the keyboard access on a popup menu system I use is borked, so I’ll be
fixing that now. Thanks for the prompt.

Cheers, Dave

8

Also testing the NNTP gateway…

It would appear that on Oct 15, dd@home.dk did say:

> On 10/13/2012 09:16 PM, jtwdyp wrote:
> > I’m a keyboard oriented user. Not because I can’t use a rodent, but
> > because I can’t use one well.
>
> don’t know why i didn’t think of this sooner:
>
> the forums are perfectly navigable without any use of a mouse whatsoever, if
> you access via nntp, and use am nntp client which offers keyboard nav…

There are I think SOME advantages to the HTTP interface. But the fact
that {OpenSuSE, SuSE itself, and/or Novell} offer/maintain a good/fast NTTP
server for accessing forum content is potentially {at least} a wonderful
solution for my navigation issues here. My chosen email/usenet client
{alpine} has a threaded index view which makes it’s keyboard nav easy
enough. To bad all *nix support forums don’t offer the same…

> if you don’t know about usenet or nntp, you can learn at wikipedia and to
> learn how to access these forums via nntp, read here:
> http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

Thanks for the link. Which told me enough to point alpine’s NTTP server
setting at: forums.opensuse.org which gave me quick access… And provided
a clue how to do this without exposing my actual email to another rush of
new spam… this ForumUserName@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org idea is great.
Errr that is if it works. :wink: Especially if my “general settings:
subscription setting” is used when I post to a thread (I like email
notification telling me to look at the forum when a topic I’m interested in
has new activity…)

BTW: about the NNTP server. It’s one of the fastest NNTP I’ve accessed in a
LONG time. That is to say ‘WOW’…

Of course if I use the usenet gateway I can’t expect to use BBCcode
enhancements such as underlining can I?

I suppose traditional usenet/email “>” “>>” etc… quoting methods are well
enough understood to make the use of

quoted text
tags
unnecessary but is there a list someplace of what conventions are expected
from NNTP users with regard to things like code tags, url tags, etc…???

–
jtwdyp

9

Hi
I use a template to add the quote tags. Sure all the bit’s and bob’s on
the forum formatting work… there is an nntp test thread in general
chit-chat where you can test :wink:

–
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64) Kernel 3.4.11-2.16-desktop
up 20:21, 3 users, load average: 0.03, 0.04, 0.05
CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU

10

On 10/16/2012 05:52 PM, jtwdyp@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org wrote:
>
> Also testing the NNTP gateway…

loud and clear.

>
> There are I think SOME advantages to the HTTP interface.

lots actually: faster access, better access (the http side has been
plagued with going off the air, or being unable to process log ins, and
a host of other problems), better threading, no blinkies to catch the
eye, easier post to post nav, etc etc etc)…there are, of course many
who have never used such an interface and describe it in other ways…

> My chosen email/usenet client {alpine} has

has about everything anyone could ever need!

> this ForumUserName@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org idea is great.
> Errr that is if it works. :wink:

it does…as you can see via either nntp or http (your post appears in
both…

> BTW: about the NNTP server. It’s one of the fastest NNTP I’ve accessed in a
> LONG time. That is to say ‘WOW’…

well, there are not thousands and thousands of kids hammering it looking
for digitized attachments of naked ladies…

> Of course if I use the usenet gateway I can’t expect to use BBCcode
> enhancements such as underlining can I?

sure you can, but as you can see the results is an underline in the hhtp
side post, but just the code on the nntp side…

many more codes available in the forums are listed here:
http://forums.opensuse.org/misc.php?do=bbcode

> I suppose traditional usenet/email “>” “>>” etc… quoting methods are well
> enough understood to make the use of

quoted text
tags
> unnecessary but is there a list someplace of what conventions are expected
> from NNTP users with regard to things like code tags, url tags, etc…???

well, different people here do things differently…i almost always use
> and >> etc to show quotes of previous messages…i will occasionally
use ‘quote’ tags when i want to quote something other than parts of the
post i’m replying to…

sometimes i use my time to add url tags, but not always…if you use
them you make an easily clickable link, if you don’t use the url tags
you make an easily copy/paste link…

otoh, i always (and so do most other of the helpers who use nntp) use
“code tags” to set off and make infinitely clear any and all command
line commands…

somewhere there is an nntp test thread, here i found it:
http://forums.opensuse.org/english/other-forums/forums-feedback/how-use-forums/469789-re-nntp-test-thread-take-ii.html
if it is complete you can find lots of experiments in the use of bbcodes
that i made some years back… (maybe using a different sig)

oh CAREFUL: if you read in nntp sometimes you will see all kinds of
strange stuff because (for example) if someone posts to the http side
and uses bold, it will come though on the nntp side as between
dashes…so, if someone over there wants to write

su - and, make it BOLD and clear it comes through on this side as
-su – which you can see is very UNclear

so, if you are trying to follow advice given by an http poster, and see
strange stuff have a peek at the http version…and, note you do not
have to log into the http side to just read.

–
dd

11

On 2012-10-16 18:30, dd@home.dk wrote:
>
>> My chosen email/usenet client {alpine} has
>
> has about everything anyone could ever need!

Alpine has a problem with nntp, though: it can not mark posts as “read”,
thus it is difficult to track what is new and what not.

An inconvenient of the nntp interface is that it syncs both sides on the
minute 6 and multiples. Sometimes one does an edit on the hhtp side and
it does not show here.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)

12

It would appear that on Oct 16, Dave Howorth did say:

> jtwdyp wrote:
> > I mostly confined my query to the link with the image filename of
> > “next-right.png” And having the alt text string of “Next” which appears
> > on all but the last page of a range of pages
>
> Thanks, now I understand.
>
> I also understand the whole question a lot better now because I have found
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158757
>
> The problem has been recognized since 2002. It hasn’t been fixed yet,
> apparently in part because people can’t agree what a better behaviour
> would be. Why would you think to type 'next to access that triangle
> image, for example?

Well, like I said earlier in this thread…

> On 10/13/2012 09:16 PM, jtwdyp wrote:
> > I’m a keyboard oriented user. Not because I can’t use a rodent, but
> > because I can’t use one well.

My use of the mouse pointer kinda resembles a three yr old trying to color
within the lines of an expert paint by numbers template… Sometimes I
click where I intended to, and sometimes I don’t… You may have noticed
that the triangle image is kinda small… But even if it were as big as the
“+ Post New Thread” button, consider that the “Applications” subforum
currently has over 11 hundred pages of threads. That would take a lot of
rodent wrestling for me to scroll through… OK lets be real, It’s unlikely
that I’d normally dig down more than 50 pages worth… But even so, Once the
find text link search string is set, I can get the next occurrence with the
keyboard shortcut of “^G” {that’s <ctrl>+G} Granted, if the word “next”
appeared in a thread subject line I might have to do “^G^G” to index the
link so that {Enter} will simulate clicking on it. But for me:

{including Firefox’s find link hotkey}

'find{enter}

is just about as easy as wrestling the rodent pointer to just the right spot
long enough to click it.

And even if there were 5 subjects on a page containing the word next, then:

^G^G^G^G^G^G{enter}

would be easier than wrestling with the mouse again. {since all I’d do would
be to hold the ctrl key down with one hand, while I pressed “g” repetitively
until the correct link was selected, and tap enter.}

> So I guess you can implement a solution or try to persuade somebody else
> to write one.

One is way beyond my skill level. And the other makes me think of a
snowball’s chance in {expletive deleted}…

> On a more positive note, as a result of your question I discovered that
> the keyboard access on a popup menu system I use is borked, so I’ll be
> fixing that now. Thanks for the prompt.

Well I’m glad that my learning about the NNTP gateway isn’t the only good
result from this thread…

Thanks

–
jtwdyp

13

On 10/16/2012 08:15 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> it can not mark posts as “read”,

didn’t know that…so, i recommend Thunderbird…BUT, it is pretty
heavy to just use as an nntp client!

maybe Knode…i used it for a while, seemed ok…and, Pan i used it for
a while too…

but settled on TB because i could do everything (email via isp, email
via my website, gmail, usenet, openSUSE mail lists, openSUSE forums,
closed forums, etc) with the same interface, same keyboard shortcuts,
same menu items, same setup, etc etc etc…

ps: i am NOT selling TB, or anything else…it works for me… ymmv

–
dd
http://tinyurl.com/DD-Hardware
http://tinyurl.com/DD-Software

14

On 2012-10-16 22:27, dd@home.dk wrote:
> On 10/16/2012 08:15 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> it can not mark posts as “read”,
>
> didn’t know that…so, i recommend Thunderbird…BUT, it is pretty
> heavy to just use as an nntp client!

Indeed. But I’m using it also for email.

> maybe Knode…i used it for a while, seemed ok…and, Pan i used it for
> a while too…

I tested several, and all, including TB, have missing features. It just
happen that the set of missing features I can live without is smaller in
TB :slight_smile:

One thing I do is that I use fetchnews to store news locally; it stores
one file per post, making thousands of files (that storage resides in a
reiserfs partition). The advantage is that TB would collapse if it had
to cache all that locally…

> but settled on TB because i could do everything (email via isp, email
> via my website, gmail, usenet, openSUSE mail lists, openSUSE forums,
> closed forums, etc) with the same interface, same keyboard shortcuts,
> same menu items, same setup, etc etc etc…

Right :slight_smile:

> ps: i am NOT selling TB, or anything else…it works for me… ymmv

However, I later fetch all email using fetchmail to local storage (some
of my email providers limit total email to 10 MB), and in doing that I
lose the emails marked as read already in TB. Pity. Once I do that, I
use Alpine to continue reading - which is way faster, I have folders
with over 10000 posts (using dovecot, so I can also read them with TB).

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)

15

On 2012-10-16 21:15, jtwdyp@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org wrote:

> Well I’m glad that my learning about the NNTP gateway isn’t the only good
> result from this thread…

One suggestion from another nntp user: please set your “from” address to


"something" <something@somewhere>

instead of

<something@somewhere>

because that way in the header shown on readers it shows as “something”
which is shorter than “<something@somewhere>”.

:slight_smile:

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)

16

On 10/17/2012 10:53 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> because that way in the header shown on readers it shows as “something”
> which is shorter than “<something@somewhere>”.

so i changed from just <dd@home.dk> to “dd” <dd@home.dk> and can just
barely contain myself while waiting for the six minute clock to run
down, to see how that impacts either nntp or http or both or neither!! :slight_smile:

–
dd

17

On 10/17/2012 12:41 PM, dd wrote:
> how that impacts either nntp or http or both or neither!! :slight_smile:

nice, a good impact on both!!
thanks for the tip!!!
maybe someone with the keys to the faq could put that good tip in the
right place…somewhere…

–
dd

18

It would appear that on Oct 17, Carlos E. R. did say:

> One suggestion from another nntp user: please set your “from” address to
>
>


> "something" <something@somewhere>
>
> instead of
>
> <something@somewhere>
>

because that way in the header shown on readers it shows as “something”
which is shorter than “something@somewhere”.

:slight_smile:

You mean like this?? {snicker}

"JtWdyP@OpenSuSE_Forum" <jtwdyp@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org>

I don’t really understand why shorter would be better? I myself have never
liked the way email and newsreader clients would display all of the
following:


"red" <purple@black.and.blue.com>
"red" <big.bad.wolf@fairytails.r.us>
"red" <spoofer@spamalot.org>
"red" <robin@yum.net>

simply as “red”…

I suppose I could understand if some lame reader displayed only the LAST
few characters in the sender field so that:


bugs.bunny@acme.com
elmer.fudd@acme.com
road.runner@acme.com
wile.coyote@acme.com

were all displayed as “acme.com” or some such…

I mean really, what would be the real advantage of my using:

"JtWdyP" <jtwdyp@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org>

be to anybody???

–
JtWdyP

19

The alt text shows up if you browse with lynx (text-mode browser). If you disable images in firefox, then it will probably show up there, too.

Most people, when they search on a web page, are wanting to search the content rather than the structural elements. So, in my opinion, it is appropriate that the Alt= text not be found in a search. If you pull up the page source, then searching for it there should work.

20

nrickert wrote:
> jtwdyp;2496121 Wrote:
>> That was what I thought alt text was for too…
>
> The alt text shows up if you browse with lynx (text-mode browser). If
> you disable images in firefox, then it will probably show up there, too.
>
> Most people, when they search on a web page, are wanting to search the
> content rather than the structural elements. So, in my opinion, it is
> appropriate that the Alt= text not be found in a search. If you pull up
> the page source, then searching for it there should work.

Remember that this is only in a specific context:
(1) The alt text belongs to an image that is the content of a link.
(2) The search is only of link text, not all text.

In that context, it does seem reasonable to me that the alt text of that
image should be searched