Windows 7 Complaints Begin

Please people, do read the EULA. It’s going beyond every limit. Stick to the EULA as a Win7 user and you will be filling out forms for permissions the rest of your life.

I have nothing against proprietary software and it’s users. But I will not let BMW tell me where to travel in it’s cars, I will not let a publisher tell me to adjust my ideas, because I’ve used “their” fonts. Just try to find out which rights M$ claims before you start publishing your thoughts using their software.

On Apple: there is a big difference: they sell a combination of hard- and software as a one-deal package. People know what they buy, at least in my network.

Instead of throwing hyperbole everywhere, why not give a concrete example which resulted in a user being sued by MS or prosecuted for violating the EULA which you dread to such an extent? Linux users need to get a grip.

On point of principle, I have to agree with Zoialord here.

The problem isn’t the EULA, it’s that Microsoft are in a position to enforce it.

If I want to sell you a pencil, and make you sign a contract in the process that says you are only entitled to use it to write the letter ‘b’, that’s great, I’m completely barking mad, but there’s nothing short of statutory restrictions (if you wrote ‘HELP’ with it to save your life, I’d never win a case against you) stopping us from entering the contract. If I have distribution deals that in practice prevent anyone else from selling pencils, there’s a problem. You don’t have to be an arch-capitalist (I’m certainly not one of those…) to believe that contracts freely entered into are mostly legitimate, if they do not harm others - and it’s a stretch to say that buying Windows in of itself harms society.

MS are welcome to make shoddy software, and sell it with shoddier licenses - just as long as they do not muscle and manipulate out the alternatives. In the end, it’ll be themselves they ruin…

[The patent system is another matter entirely - a systemic problem, that you can’t blame on governments or the people that elect them. Completely broken though - google ‘layering’ of pharmaceutical patents. It’s disgusting.]

It appears that most linux users want Win 7 functionality for free, but by using linux as opposed to Win 7; Also they would like MS to open up their code libraries under the pretext that the NSA has “backdoors”; These issues and the issues related to the EULA are a smoke screen. Give me one concrete example of how MS tried to monitor which applications one uses with Win 7 and would go so far as to nullify a user’s license of Win 7, even after the user has purchased a legitimate copy of Win 7 through a licensed dealer of Win 7. Apple users do not expect Apple OS/X to work with all off the shelf hardware but linux users do and openly complain about half-baked theories of collusion between hardware/software/Microsoft to limit the linux world from gaining ground against MS. If you want linux to really grow, create a linux standard and only buy hardware which uses it and expect to pay more for it and quit trying to hack your way through everything for free, then crying “foul” when you are stopped.

Tbh i think the whole discussion here has kinda gone off of the topic and onto what people “view” as MS.

MS has a lot of product’s and bundling them together with Windows OS is imo wrong, Yes IE, WMP, Messenger are all meant to be “choices” but they are sorta put into the OS and offer an “integrated” feel to end-user’s. The problem is the effect it has of making MS even more dominant in many areas…

Novell, Sun, IBM, HP and many other manufacturer’s try to break away from the “Bundling” effect but due to the “integration” of software they can’t totally do it. This has become the “Standard” that most user’s see.

Linux try’s to break away from it by offering a choice of app’s from many developer’s all Open-Source be them Free software or Proprietary software. The problem come’s when it get’sto the desktop. People have gotten so used to Windows and Plug and Play (Pray if you want to call it that like I do :P) that change is a hard thing to make. People “expect” linux not to be “exactly” like Windows in the sense of how it look’s or feel’s but most expect it to be the same at the “hardware” level.

As we all know that’s not the case, Linux by design isn’t like that it’s modular, rely’s on thing’s outside the base system to achieve other task’s. Windows is a “for dummies” system, it’s basically “fool” proof in the way it works, or that’s how it seems to most. Linux on the other hand has always had the “it’s for techies and geeks” problem. OpenSuse, Ubuntu, Mandriva are trying hard to break that perception and imho they are doing really well at it. We have a long way to go before we reach the ease of use of Window’s. But the Window’s has the advantage of a large corporation and one standard behind it, Linux has the prob of it being made up from many smaller companies/devs that never seem to the outside world to be able to agree on anything lol.

Take the whole RPM/DEB argument, there is no one standard for package management, each one has it’s own advantages and drawback’s. The argument at the base is the same as the argument over Open-Source and Proprietary software. Advocates for both side’s battle tooth and nail to protect their chosen standard. Even though neither is “better” than the other people still argue the fact.

Linux was and never will be a “replacement” to Windows. The infighting over what they see as “standards” will make sure of that. But Linux is a **** great “Alternative” to Windows. Imho Linux offer’s more than Mac OS X or any of the other less specific OS’s out there. Linux has many advantages by it’s design over other OS’s, it does not limit Architecture, does not impose boundaries (in the sense of hardware limits). It try’s to be a jack of all trade’s. It does suffer from the “master of none” syndrome though. Linux is great at a lot of thing’s but excels in nothing at all from a desktop perspective.

That’s what the end-user see’s. They see the bickering between distros, developer’s over which language is better, FOSS, GNU whatever. All they see is the infighting that isn’t apparent within MS. What linux has to do is much as it has done in the past, simply advance. Get better with each release and for the user’s of the software to drop all the petty infighting and aim to make “Linux” and the distro you choose the best it can be. No distro is better than another in the sense of content. Where they differ is in implementation. Look at OpenSuse and the KDE integration against that of Kubuntu or even Fedora. OpenSuse totally eclipses the other’s in almost every aspect of integration. What the user’s of linux in general need to do is learn to respect MS for it’s achievement’s. But also learn that sometime’s these law-suits and the likes are made by companies jealous or frustrated at the dominance.

If we keep fighting MS then Linux will always be where it is today. If we stop fighting MS and start looking at our own base to improve then MS will not bother any of us that choose OpenSuse or Linux in general.

Too late, I’ve already got rid of the dual-boot and relegated W7 to Virtualbox. Even there though it takes noticeably longer to boot than XP: haven’t done any measurements but on subjective impressions and memory around 30% longer, with nothing much except Office 2007 installed.
I’m gradually getting rid of dual boots on all my comps. openSUSE and Linux software does pretty much all I want, and for the few exceptions (MS Office when OOo is inadequate, InDesign where Scribus isn’t up to it or can’t convert the files, Photoshop where the GIMP doesn’t cut it, and Outlook to sync my PDA) I find virtualisation much more convenient.

No very often the terms of EULA’s are outrageous and clearly unfair.

People don’t respect EULA’s and just click through because they are busy. Most often doing the ignorant thing is time saving and doesn’t cost anything for practical reasons. Rejecting the EULA and trying for a refund on shrink wrap software with seal broken (and usually you cannot see the EULA before you have done that), is already setting you up for a battle.

Just because the status quo exists, does not make it right.

It is totally unrealistic to expect mass rejection of EULA’s and protest about them, because most people do not care about computer issues enough,so long as the terms are not enforced effectively.

The “Network Effect” is what keeps Windows popular, you have wide support through OEMs, local shops, software sales; to move away from Windows you need to know what you’re doing, and most people don’t.

Windows is not fool proof, I generally find Window’s PCs are poorly maintained, and are not patched against known security vulnerabilites. Eventually Windows will die, most likely due to declining interest on desktop PCs as they are replaced by special purpose computers, and the MS monopoly will fall.

Most likely the market at that time would determine a “standard” distro, and FOSS means that it is easy to produce tools to support the preferred software installation format for shrink-wrap softare. But again that is likely to be niche market stuff, rather than commodity, which is likely to be served by webservices and free applications.

It is simply uneconomic to create a new OS, once Linux & BSD exist. MS are living on borrowed time, exploiting monopoly rents to fund the continuance of their closed system. That situation won’t continue for ever, and then suddenly they’ll be unable to do the cross-subsidies their model has depended on.

Windows 7’s only problems are:

  1. It’s proprietary.

  2. Linux has several features that surpass W7’s features.

  3. And of course, it’s windows and has all the general problems previous Windows versions did. These include vulnerability to viruses, need for defragging and maintaining your installation, and all the other window$ problems.

Otherwise, I don’t see any big flaw in it. But then, different people will have different experiences

I have to include that it will ask you to start the pc in each every update to complete the process.:wink:

BrownieCat wrote:
> Windows 7’s only problems are:
>
> 1. It’s proprietary.
>
So what? Why does proprietary = problem?

> 2. Linux has several features that surpass W7’s features.
>
Which would be?

> 3. And of course, it’s windows and has all the general problems
> previous Windows versions did. These include vulnerability to viruses,
> need for defragging and maintaining your installation, and all the other
> window$ problems.
>
> Otherwise, I don’t see any big flaw in it. But then, different people
> will have different experiences
>
>

You need to maintain your linux install too and it has vulnerabilities
especially when left unpatched.

joerione wrote:
> BrownieCat;2091541 Wrote:
>> Windows 7’s only problems are:
>>
>> 1. It’s proprietary.
>>
>> 2. Linux has several features that surpass W7’s features.
>>
>> 3. And of course, it’s windows and has all the general problems
>> previous Windows versions did. These include vulnerability to viruses,
>> need for defragging and maintaining your installation, and all the other
>> window$ problems.
>>
>> Otherwise, I don’t see any big flaw in it. But then, different people
>> will have different experiences
>
> I have to include that it will ask you to start the pc in each every
> update to complete the process.:wink:
>
>
Complete FUD. Certain updates need a reboot, others don’t.

By my experience, most windows updates demand a reboot. It used to be a pain patching my systems manually. Apple can be bad too. Not long ago iTunes updates were requiring reboots on Macs. There were rumors that they were planting a DRM rootkit.

90% of security updates to Windows will ask for a reboot due to the system file changes. To say all of them need it… although it may seem that way isn’t really true, some updates are done without the user even really being aware of it. The one’s that need interaction are mainly the one’s that change “System Files” and the restarts are due to permissions on the file’s while they are in use (much the same as Linux permissions).

I do agree that some thing’s in linux do improve on what you can find within Windows as a counterpart… KDE Widget integration, Multi virtual desktop’s, Eye-Candy (sorry couldn’t resist). They all beat what MS has at the moment, there are many other’s aswell. Although some stuff in Windows 7 is really nice aswell. The new “Super taskbar” I think is very nice and would love to see something similar in KDE (although we have it a little with the Panel’s and management, I’m more refering to the task manager, simple icons that are intuitive and dont fill the bar with text).

Every person has a different “appreciation” or “loathing” for Windows. Some see it as a hinderance to advancement’s. Other’s like myself see it as an achievement for technology in general. Where would we have been without MS, without the push for a “Desktop in every home”. Without the forward thinking and the drive to achieve.

MS and Windows in general have a lot of bad thing’s about them, but the achievement’s they have made speak for themselves, looking back on thing’s who would have seen the day when almost every person had some contact with a PC, be it Work or Play. Who would have seen the fact that 90% (roughly) would be using the same software at home as they do at work.

MS has a lot of downsides to it, but people should not overlook the achievement’s of the company and focus on the “downsides”. Window’s is a “good” OS it’s not great and it’s not without issues, but at the same time neither is Linux/BSD/Mac OS X or any other piece of software. They all have thing’s we don’t like about them, I personally hate the argument that linux is so much faster than windows. Linux isn’t faster than Windows, it just deals with thing’s differently which allows the OS to be “smoother” than Windows. Mac OS X isn’t better than Linux or Windows, It is based on a very secure enviroment, the whole BSD architecture is based around security first, everything else after. But that is also restricting and at time’s frustrating for software you really want to run but cant.

Everything has a solution to it though and with time people find it.

That statement made me feel better. I seldom boot in windows, I only do it for things that required me to do which I can’t do in linux. During the longest time that I did not use windows, when I boot into it, it prompts for a bunch of updates which every time requires a reboot to complete and in most cases I have to reboot my pc twice or thrice depending on the amount of update just to satisfy the operating system. To 69_rs_ss, thanks for letting me know that there are some that doesn’t require a reboot, I will stick it in mind and never to post a 100% percent reboot each time for a windows update. I will go by the line of chief_sealth which say most.

There were personal computers before the IBM PCs (Atari, Commodore, et al), with GUIs and processing power but mostly a niche market. The wintel explosion had a lot to do with timing and circumstance: Maybe most important was the emergence of the Internet, and Microsoft almost blew that. Dell and the others cloned the IBM models, and the rest was history. Bill Gates was in the right place at the right time.

Yep he was and had the right idea :slight_smile:

A lot of thing’s in life can be accredited to being in the right place at the right time… sometimes even being in the wrong place at the right time also works lol

The whole thing was, there wasn’t “one” system that everyone used, across Home and Work. That was pretty much the target of Window’s although what happened was a flook.

As for the Atari/Commodore statment… I do miss them and also miss the Apple II, All of which pre-date IBM as far as PC’s go, not the company’s though lol. 1896 for the company that become IBM, 1972 for Atari, 1975 or 76 for MS.

MITS i think is actually the oldest of the “Home” PC’s as it were with the Altair. MS wrote BASIC for that lol.

But that’s going way to deep into history now lol

BrownieCat wrote:
> Windows 7’s only problems are:
>
> 1. It’s proprietary.
>
> 2. Linux has several features that surpass W7’s features.

Actually, to be fair, Windows 7 does not come with many features
at all. Whereas a Linux distribution will come with thousands
of programs that Windows 7 does not have.

With that said, for a few things there are Windows equivalents if
not direct ports that can be downloaded for free.

Linux distros tend to be more “batteries included” than Windows.

>
> 3. And of course, it’s windows and has all the general problems
> previous Windows versions did. These include vulnerability to viruses,
> need for defragging and maintaining your installation, and all the other
> window$ problems.

Actually, the problems are far greater than the general public knows.
Fortunately, Microsoft has opted a “Don’t tell. Doesn’t exist” policy
with regards to security vulnerabilities. So those that know the
inner secrets just choose to keep quiet (no sense in sending people
into a panic).

>
> Otherwise, I don’t see any big flaw in it. But then, different people
> will have different experiences

I wouldn’t want my life support system to be running on Windows…

chief sealth wrote:
> 69_rs_ss;2091729 Wrote:
>> Complete FUD. Certain updates need a reboot, others don’t.
>
> By my experience, -most- windows updates demand a reboot. It used to
> be a pain patching my systems manually. Apple can be bad too. Not long
> ago iTunes updates were requiring reboots on Macs. There were rumors
> that they were planting a DRM rootkit.
>

Windows updating has gotten somewhat better… or arguably, the
ability to exploit vulnerabilities via higher layers has become
more prevalent.

I’ll agree with the statement that some require a reboot and some
do not… but will say the vast majority still require a reboot.

Well my experiences updating Windows have been chequered.

Sometimes you have to split up the change sets or they fail, it’s quite common for an update not to work first time. Then a recent IE8 patch, caused Windows to reboot infinitely, when it should have presented a login screen. Updating applications, often involves polling; it’s too late to update Adobe Reader for example after it’s started, because it’s usually opened a file already.

Sometimes it’s easier to uninstall an application and then re-install a latest version, otherwise it takes you through a history of their various patches, doing 1 at a time and requiring restart to get the next.

MS know it’s a mess, they were advertising for ppl to work on Win8 updater infrastructure for non-MS programs.

MS have tried to take away other’s freedom, by corrupting standards and making interoperation difficult. They have been found guilty in the courts many times, and had to pay several huge settlements. This is a good reason, to remember the shortcomings, MS have shown they are not trustworthy. Their achievements have generally been in follow on products to emulate competitors, or with bought in technology. Even if MS have a “best of breed” product, one should think carefully before deploying.

I just did a clean install upgrade from Windows 7 RC to Windows 7 Ultimate Retail only yesterday. It’s bluescreened about eight times now, but performance has improved (and the bluescreens are now becoming rarer). That’s a trend I noticed with the other six or so builds of Windows 7 I have, they tend to bluescreen loads just after you install, then they begin to stabilise over time. I might consider downgrading to Windows 7 build 6801, the PDC build, which happens to be the most stable yet incomplete Windows I’ve ever used.