Wiki Forums Discussions - Where? and a Wiki HCL suggestion

Was looking for the OpenSUSE HCL, specifically for tablets. Aside from no specific category for the Tablet hardware platform, I’ve found only relatively old content, broken links and un-ported content (from the old Wiki).

I found the new page but at least laptop links link to empty content. My guess is a decision hasn’t yet been made whether to port old content or change the format.

Various pages including this HCL page point to dead links to “Wiki Discussion” pages to post suggestions for improvement with the new design including the following

http://forums.opensuse.org/english/community/opensuse-wiki-discussions/

Assuming that it’s possible to post suggestions here,

I’ve visited the issue displaying this kind of data a few times over the past 10 years. In all cases I was managing ASP.NET projects, but the issue(s) and approach is the same no matter what technology you use, but the options will be different.

IMO the most flexible and User-friendly way to display tables of information like this based on User configurable parameters is typically called the Pivot Table, most commonly seen as a feature in Microsoft Excel. The problem is that displaying hierarchical data in a web spreadsheet is deceptively difficult. Until relatively recently, it was commonly done by embedding code generators, but because of the complex calculations required can cause extreme loads (typical server-side but can be client-side).

Much better is if you can do these calculations in the middleware or even better the database levels, and MS SQL introduced a native functionality only a couple years ago. I don’t know if other database engines can do this, I’d guess it’s still relatively rare. The next best try likely is to implement as middleware or server-side compiled code (not interpreted code), which is also rare but exist.

I recommend that for whatever code the Wiki Discussions might use, to start looking at available Pivot Table options prioritized as I’ve described… First database engine, then compiled code running in middleware or at the Presentation layer, and lastly as on the fly scripted HTML code.

Once the Pivot Table engine is selected, then the GUI itself can be modified to data bind the various hardware and manufacturer options either to a spreadsheet field or as input boxes of your choice (typically dropdown or scrolling).

My guess also is that if Pivot Tables are implemented, both input (contributors) and output (browsing) forms would need to be designed to shield Users from database complexities and limit potential errors.

Naturally, AJAX lends itself nicely to displaying this kind of data.

HTH,
Tony

On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:06:02 +0000, tsu2 wrote:

> Assuming that it’s possible to post suggestions here,

Possible, but as the Wiki Discussions pages are maintained by the wiki
team, they probably won’t see this information here.

You might try the wiki forum here. I believe there’s also a mailing list.

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

I have edited
openSUSE:Wiki team - openSUSE
and
Portal:Hardware/Intro - openSUSE

Maybe someone will approve the second change in the future.

Do not know how much the subforum is read by the according people but
maybe forums.opensuse.org could also make a redirect to the new URL of the wiki subforum?

Regards
Martin
(pistazienfresser)

Howdy,
I won’t mind if a Forums Admin moved this thread to the appropriate Forum.

Thx,
Tony

Thx,
Now I see that the Wiki Discussion Forum is located as a sub-forum to “Community” which isn’t visible unless you actually opened the Community Forum.

If these Forums are designed with unlimited hierarchical depth, IMO it’s very important to provide a navigation tool that enables complete visibility.
MS introduced a dynamic treeview to their web newsgroup tool, a similar treeview is used to browse MSDN.

Would like to see a similar tool, I imagine there’s some off the shelf Javascript that dynamically updates and never needs maintanance somewhere that can do this if tool doesn’t already exist in the Forums app.

Tony

On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 16:36:01 +0000, tsu2 wrote:

> If these Forums are designed with unlimited hierarchical depth, IMO it’s
> very important to provide a navigation tool that enables complete
> visibility.

Good point. :slight_smile: I’ll talk with Kim about that.

Jim


Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

tsu2 wrote:

> …
> I’ve visited the issue displaying this kind of data a few times over
> the past 10 years. …
> IMO the most flexible and User-friendly way to display tables of
> information like this based on User configurable parameters is typically
> called the Pivot Table,…
> The problem is that displaying hierarchical data in a web
> spreadsheet is deceptively difficult. …

We use wiki to store data, which wasn’t very successful.
Until recently it wasn’t possible to create table that will rearrange data
per user request. About hiding columns that are not relevant, I’m not sure.

There is project Smolt that is an attempt to create developer friendly
layout, that will retrieve data about computer with minimal user
intervention. Not very user friendly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Smolt (Linux)


Regards,
Rajko

If you’re looking to extract data about your hardware and how OpenSUSE is configured,

  • There is a “get everyhing imaginable” script in the OSS downloadable and installed as an RPM called “siga”
  • You can do a Forums search for username jdmcdaniel3 who has created and posted numerous scripts which will extract select information.

IMO whether you’re talking about “enterprise” or a single machine, both options should be sufficient for most businesses and Users, much better than Smolt.

As for storing and displaying data, yes just blogging/posting to a wiki is simple but has its drawbacks. Since displaying pivot table data can be done even using regular HTML (generally least preferable option though), I’m sure that if a database was made available somewhere to the Wiki, then at least simple implementations are possible. Solutions can vary from a pivot table with fixed parameters that could be written in a few minutes but will dynamically build from most recent data to complex options that permit the User to vary parameters and hierarchies (which would likely require a major Dev effort). As I’ve noted, better solutions do not process the data and construct the table client-side.

Tony

On 02/15/2011 12:36 AM, tsu2 wrote:
>
> yes just blogging/posting to a wiki is simple

for your background info [since you were not here]: two or three years
ago one of the moderators raised the point about how really difficult
it was to feed data into the HCL then in use in the wiki…

the reason for the difficulty was the poster had to know the
wiki-markup for tables (conversant in html is no help) and if adding a
new device had to both manually construct and populate its table with
data…

[if you don’t know the difference between hyperText-markup and this
wiki’s markup, then go ahead and add your hardware and its
capabilities to our HCL…you will soon see it is not “simple” (as
you said)…]

even with the new ease of data collection by (external) Smolt, two or
three years later, we have a mostly-unchanged but better looking
(improved layout and color coordination) HCL which continues to be
manually updated using the not-simple wiki-markup…

additionally, those who don’t figure out the markup are offered the
possibility to drop a smolt URL in a comment on the page…

that offer and info advising where your HCL improving suggestions (and
subsequent discussion) should have landed is on
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Hardware


DenverD
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
[NNTP posted w/openSUSE 11.3, KDE4.5.5, Thunderbird3.0.11, nVidia
173.14.28 3D, Athlon 64 3000+]
“It is far easier to read, understand and follow the instructions than
to undo the problems caused by not.” DD 23 Jan 11

Maybe the info in the Hardware Comparability List (HCL) could be improved by adding numeric ID’s with links to according tags in these forums?
Like: forums.opensuse.org/tags/14e4%3A4727.html for 14e4:4727

Regards
Martin
pistazienfresser

Anyone?
Rajko?

Portal:Hardware - openSUSE
shows still the wrong URL to the wiki sub-forum on its stable version when I am not logged in .

Regards
Martin
(pistazienfresser)

I’ll add it to my long list of lower priority ToDo :slight_smile:

My hope is that the Wiki markup language should include some kind of “include” or other container I can embed something like HTML… or link/display to a page served from another website which does support “more generic” languages…

Tony

On 02/15/2011 06:06 PM, tsu2 wrote:
> I’ll add it to my long list of lower priority ToDo :slight_smile:

smile all you wish, until you know what you are talking about, you are
not helping move us forward with suggestions that are based on
ignorance of the facts…

> My hope is that the Wiki markup language should include some kind of
> “include” or other container

prepare for your hope to be skewered…


DenverD
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
[NNTP posted w/openSUSE 11.3, KDE4.5.5, Thunderbird3.0.11, nVidia
173.14.28 3D, Athlon 64 3000+]
“It is far easier to read, understand and follow the instructions than
to undo the problems caused by not.” DD 23 Jan 11

Just because I say it will have a lower priority doesn’t mean it won’t be done some day, it means that there are several other things I’ve already committed to that push this type of thing down the road.

BTW - Now I’m noticing that for both Forum and Wiki there doesn’t seem to be any “Test” sections. What are current Dev people doing, deploying mirrored staging sites or generic local sites to test code?

Tony

Probably my last post in this thread for awhile, I did some quick investigation into the posted openSUSE Wiki documentation (yes, I noticed that is the only and required way to spell openSUSE now, not starting with a capital and ending in all capital letters) with the following obervations…

Although the Wiki markup language is recommended, regular HTML is supposed to work too. I think the author wasn’t enthusiastic about using HTML because depending on what the HTML does might screw up the Templates. But, this likely opens up a whole world of capability beyond the few Wiki markup commands described.

Found the “sandbox” section, believe that is offered as the testing playground.

No database access, but that isn’t necessarily surprising.
No scripting capability, but that isn’t necessarily surprising.
But, there are ways to get around both these issues.

A general observation, the tone of the instructions seems very severe to me. The Wiki is really open to anyone who has a Novell Account login but the rules are extensive from what you can and can’t say, how to say it, how things must look and how to spell and display anything related to the SUSE name.

where’s the fun? :slight_smile:

As I said, my schedule won’t permit taking on something of this magnitude soon, but if someone wants to have a go at this, message me offline and I can give you resources, code and guidance.

Tony

I use a sub-page of my wiki user-page as a playground/sandbox/testing space for drafts, e. g.:
User:Pistazienfresser/GRUB - Legacy and 2 (Comparison) - openSUSE
(like I was told to do in the de.wikipedia some years ago).

Until now I got not killed for a doing like that.
Martin
(pistazienfresser)