Why I won't recommend 11.1 to friends.

English Soapbox
1

This is some general feedback about my 11.1 experience.

I was using Suse 10.3. The last time I recommended Suse to a friend had been a disaster: 11.0 botched the bootloader installation on a new average desktop and my friend panicked. I helped him to fix the MBR over the phone so that he could boot Windows again and he discarded the Suse DVD immediately. :frowning:

Now I have just installed Suse 11.1 with KDE4 on a new Dell M4400 laptop. I had also tried beta4 and RC1 and even submitted a bug report. Hereā€™s the summary of my final experiences. Overall, I feel this would be too much trouble in order to recommend it to a friend.

My woes:

  • GRUB installation fails.
    SOLUTION: manually select MBR for install. Selecting root, boot or extended partition as suggested fails somehow, no matter whether I check or uncheck the make active and generic MBR checkboxes.

  • Unable to run any resolution higher than 800x600.
    SOLUTION: install nVidia binary driver.
    HOWEVER, during installation, e.g. the Bootloader-Installations Dialogue does not fit onto the screen, but there are no scrollbars. Hence some Buttons are simply inaccessible! I thought such problems should not occur nowadays anymore!

  • Wireless recognised, shows available networks, but never connects successfully to several networks.
    SOLUTION: Disable ipv6 support.

  • k3b cannot write a DVD.
    SOLUTION: add yourself to groups CDROM, DISK, etc.

  • Sound does not work.
    SOLUTION: Getting generous help in this forum enables sound, but no microphone works.

  • ALPS touchpad was way to slow.
    SOLUTION: Multiply Acceleration entry in /etc/X11/xorg.conf by 10

  • Transfering data using ā€œfish://ā€ via Dophin always stalls after a few hundred megabytes.
    WORKAROUND: Fish from the other machine running 10.3.

  • Bluetooth does not seem to work; there are no more Bluetooth configuration dialogues in YAST, so what am I supposed to try?

  • Suspend to RAM works out of box. HOWEVER, waking up takes way longer than booting or resume after Suspend to Disk. I do get a moving cursor on a black screen quickly, but I need to wait for a full minute until I am allowed to enter a password and disable the screen lock. Then, Knetworkmanager will not work anymore, etc.

  • Installing the multimedia codecs messes up the packet manager. Sure, there is a warning that there might be ā€œvendor-changeā€ warnings, but I still
    get them all the time whenever I hit ā€œupdate all packagesā€. Also, frequent messages about downgrading. Huh?

  • Lots of minor KDE4 annoyances, like vertical panels not working correctly (especially quicklauncher), inability to easily add applications buttons to panels (drag and drop from menu works though), Kate not starting from root-konsole (but kde3-kate does), etc.

The are some good things though: Package management is much faster. The internal SD card reader and the internal webcam worked out of box with Skype (no use without microphone though).

All the eye-candy is nice, but essentials like not seeing the entire dialogue during installation is just a killer for newbies.

2

Try "sftp:// ā€¦ " I find it works far better than "fish:// ā€¦ "

3

These views constitute opinion and personal experience, not generally accepted fact.

SOLUTION: Getting generous help in this forum enables sound, but no microphone works.

PulseAudio on OpenSuSE, Ubuntu and Fedora blows. I might just as well say PulseAudio blows. For me I canā€™t even get two audio sources running at once, or even use PA volume control to the same time as something playingā€¦

Installing the multimedia codecs messes up the packet manager. Sure, there is a warning that there might be ā€œvendor-changeā€ warnings, but I still get them all the time whenever I hit ā€œupdate all packagesā€. Also, frequent messages about downgrading. Huh?

Install the repository by wgetā€™ing the repo file and editing it to have a good priority like 200. Then you still get multimedia codecs without anything being ā€œvendor changedā€, this is the fault of a community repository overwriting base components not OpenSuSE. (The .repo files should go into /etc/zypp/repos.d)

Using the GUI ends up in tears with repos called repo_1, repo_2 etc. which is not helpful on the CLI.

Lots of minor KDE4 annoyances, like vertical panels not working correctly (especially quicklauncher), inability to easily add applications buttons to panels (drag and drop from menu works though), Kate not starting from root-konsole (but kde3-kate does), etc.

KDE 4 is a steaming pile right now, I donā€™t know a single distribution that works correctly with it in every way. The very nature of KDE is to bring new functionality to the desktop but I think they have gone too far, too fast with KDE 4.x.

Benefits of openSuSE 11.1

  • SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop (SLED) should be based on this release :smiley:
  • Quicker package management ^^
  • YaST Software Management doesnā€™t have the ridiculous bug where if a package == what is in the search box and is selected it all blows up :smiley:
  • Newer and better (proprietary) ā€˜nvidiaā€™ drivers
  • Quicker 3D support on (OSS) ā€˜nvā€™ drivers (glxgears works quicker?)
4

Man, can you help me with that? I installed Suse 11.0 on another disk, Suse installed its own Grub and now I can no longer install Grub in that disk. Iā€™ve tried the Super Grub CD, Windows ā€˜fdisk /mbrā€™ and no go! How do I delete whatever junk Suse 11.0 did to my HD?

5

I am afraid, ā€˜fdisk /mbrā€™ was all I advised to my friend, which already allowed him to boot Windows again. He just had been curious to see what Linux is like, but decided to wait instead and not investigate the issue any further. :frowning: I could also not inspect the machine myself, as I currently live in another country.

Besides, I feel I should clarify my intentions for the first post here: I am happily using Suse for more than 7 years now. Although in the first three years I never had to install it myself. I am a user. If a setting does not exist in Yast, I do not mess with it. Only once I compiled a kernel to get a bluetooth headset working. It worked for 3 months, but the next update destroyed everything again, and the steps I had done before did not work anymore (the way to apply patches apparently had changed slightly, I was told by a more experienced non-Suse Linuxer).

Anyway, I am happy with 11.1 for myself and the four machines I maintain for others. I just would not recommend it to a friend who has no Linux experience and for whom I cannot perform the installation directly. This thread was just intended to give some feedback why.

6

Well, the current KDE version isnā€™t very recommended, not for older SUSE users nor new ones. I prefer KDE over Gnome but Iā€™m currently using Gnome until a more stable KDE version is available, which should be somewhere in January.

And about 11.1 specifically, it took me longer to configure it correctly compared to 11 but itā€™s really worth it as soon as the important features work.

7

as suse-11.1 is not installable in intel 845 mobo computers
i will not recommend it to my friends.almost all computers here around are 845 intel mobo.
kde4.1.3 is stable and work nicely.but a resource hog.
so i have installed kde3 also
kde3 works faster.

8

I really likeā€¦and run Suse for my desktop. ā€œsince 9.3ā€
But I donā€™t really run it for my laptops. Mainly because with wireless, they make you jump through so many hoops and it is buggy on my laptops.
It just annoys the heck out of me. >:)
I can get wireless working? Yes but maybe in an afternoon.
I can think of 1/2 dozen distroā€™s where about 6 clicks of the mouse and everything is configured and running with wireless.
It doesnā€™t make 11.1 bad. But that is why I choose other distroā€™s for wireless.

9

Funny, I run entirely on laptops for 6 years, and wireless always worked out of the box for me - except for 11.1.

10

Glad they worked for you out of the box.:wink:

I change laptops like some people change underwear.lol!
I bought and sold about 4 just this month.
There is a distro out there to match every laptops hardware.

11

I could never agree more to the original poster than anyyoneā€¦ v11.1 really sucksā€¦

One must really love this distro to have it 100% working. Being a GNME user since SLED 10 but started with suse 7.2.

It took me some days to have my desktop working the way I wanted it to workā€¦ Now I even have emerald working just fine and Iā€™m using KDE4 ā€¦ This is the 3rd time I use KDE (I used in the past with linxpire and xandros)ā€¦

I wouldnā€™t recomend v11.1 to a friend unless I wnat him to have a very bad day :D, however, I love this distro and to be honest Iā€™d spend more time on tweaks if I had it, but changing from 11 to 11.1 has been a real PITAā€¦ I must really be out of my mind!!!

Iā€™ll wait for SLED 11 and stick to it for as long as I can. I believe it will be a great distro with a lot of fixes and enhancements.

Cheers

Luis.

12

I could not disagree more.

Iā€™ve been playing a lot with Fedora 10 recently ā€¦ and while its a good distribution, it simply does not have the shine and gloss that openSUSE has. Fedora is definitely harder to setup on my PC hardware.

A lot of us can say that (been using SuSE for a long time). ā€¦ And what I can say is 11.1 has worked better with my hardware than any previous version.

Why not KDE3 ? So this is really a complaint abut KDE4, and not about 11.1.

Frankly, I would recommend 11.1 with KDE-3.5.10 over Fedora, over Vista, and over all other distributions that I have tried recently (knoppix, sidux, kanotix, ubuntu, kbuntu).

Your views are noted, and Iā€™m sure there are users who feel like you. But I also know there are many users who feel like me (as I have exchanged emails with some, and chatted with some).

13

Well, that is part of the work I expect my distro to sort out for me: Hiding KDE3 behind others and putting KDE4 up so prominently seemed to indicate that the people behind the distro believe that it is readyā€¦

A KDE radio button with an extra dialogue that lists think that do not work, like bluetooth or wireless, would have me think about that and make my own decision after more research. But the mere question ā€œGNOME or KDE?ā€ is one I do not think about anymore.

14

I couldnā€™t agree moreā€¦ with oldcpu :smiley:

15

Excellentā€¦ but this is my personal point of view.
I will not talk about Fedora, the only time I wanted to use it (Probabily Fedora 2 or 3) I hosed my HD and went for help to the forum only to recive a ā€œRTFMā€ answer

A lot of us can say that (been using SuSE for a long time). ā€¦ And what I can say is 11.1 has worked better with my hardware than any previous version.

Yes oldcpu and I agree with you, but what is the level of your linux skills? would you recommend it to a newbie?.. ok I know your answer, but I wouldnt, sorry!!!
I will go far beyond. My youngest daughter is 10 years old. Sheā€™s beeen using openSuSe since 10.3, (Now she is using OS11) Her desktop has an old ATI radeon card where she installed the driver only by selecting the ATI Repo with no single problem. in v11 she installed (with no help) some games and even her belkin usb wireless. she upgraded from 10.3 to 11 only with minor issues. I can say that her linux skills are basic, she can open a terminal and change from one directory to another and she can even execute some other commands like ā€œwine nameofgameā€ and thatā€™s about it, Very very basic linux skills. When we tried to upgrade to OS11.1 , guess what?.. yes! a complete hosed system where the only thing I could do was to insert my OS11 DVD and revert it to v11ā€¦ thatā€™s only ONE exampleā€¦ want more?..

Why not KDE3 ? So this is really a complaint abut KDE4, and not about 11.1.

Simple. Iā€™m using ā€œkdenlive 0.76ā€ which works great using the KD4 libraries but tends to break kde 3.5x and GNOME 2.2 and 2.4. Iā€™ve only been able to use it with KDE4 natively with no single issue. But as I said before, now Iā€™ve not a single problem with KDE4 (aftrer some hours of hard work)ā€¦ And the best is that Iā€™m learning new things, which is the mpst important for me.

Frankly, I would recommend 11.1 with KDE-3.5.10 over Fedora, over Vista, and over all other distributions that I have tried recently (knoppix, sidux, kanotix, ubuntu, kbuntu).

Your views are noted, and Iā€™m sure there are users who feel like you. But I also know there are many users who feel like me (as I have exchanged emails with some, and chatted with some).

Ok. My only approach to KDE3.5x was in v11 when I tried to run ā€œkdenliveā€ with the KDE4 libraries. So most probabily you are just right! Iā€™d recommend OS11 over any other distro (including Mandriva which I really like). And the reason for this is that people who comes to me are windows users who know me for using linux. But I donā€™t live from linux or make money for this,as Iā€™m not an expert and Iā€™m involved in a different kind of business.

My point of view is one thing, however I use OS 11.1 with KDE4. Now with no single issue, but that does not mean Iā€™d recommend it.
Your work and mine differ a lot and i respect your opinion very much 'cause I know you an expert with Linux and specially OpenSuSE. I really thank you very much for your comments. Different opinions tend to build bigger and stronger communities.

Respectfully

Luis

16

I suspect our assessments wrt specifics are not far apart, but our conclusions are likely different. :slight_smile: ā€¦ my view, like yours, is coloured by experience of friend/acquaintances. ā€¦

Let you give you mine instead.

My mother is 82 years old. I would say your 10 year old daugherā€™s Linux skills slightly surpass that of my mothers.

Every year, since 2001 (except for last year) my mother has totally hosed both her winXP and winME boot partitions. They have been totally siezed with all sorts of malware, typically a few times in the course of a year, each year. Sometimes she was able to get a neighbor, nephew, cousin or neice to fix it for her. Most of the times, she could not, as the problem was beyond there skills also, and she had to wait for my annual visit to fix things (or pay an arm and a leg for a technician from the local store to come fix her PC, and probably set it up NOT the way she wants).

Now, would I recommend winXP or winME to her, in light of that? No is my answer.

I installed openSUSE-10.2 on her PC two years ago. I maintain it for her remotely (a continent away). When we started 2 years ago, she visited winME 90% of the time, and openSUSE-10.2 10% of the time. Her winME has problems now. So does her winME. Her openSUSE Linux is still running. She is now using openSUSE 80% of the time. In Jan-2009, I will update her PC to openSUSE-11.1. And I have no concerns about that approach.

Let me give you another example. I have friends who used to live in Germany (but moved back to the USA). The husband is in his 40s. The wife in her 30s. They are average PC users. When in Germany, every six months they typically hosed their winXP. Full of malware. Twice my wife and I reformatted their PCā€™s hard drive, and re-install winXP for them. The last time they purchased a new PC, and relegated their malware infected PC to the basement. I had them lend it to me, ā€¦ I installed openSUSE-10.2 on the old PC, and gave it back to them. They moved to the US. Their new winXP PC has been hosed twice since (full of malware). Their old openSUSE-10.2 PC is still chugging along, no problems.

Just like you, I can rattle off examples.

And you ask me what I would recommend? Well, either a MacIntosh or a Linux distribution, but definitely NOT windows.

Now if I had to choose a Linux distribution, what would I recommend? I would recommend one I know works well. And that is openSUSE.

I respect your view. I respect the user friendliness and power of the applications for Windows. But it does not do a user any good if those applications (that they all paid hard cash for) can not run because their Operating System has been crippled. And that has happened to most of my friends who run Windows.

So I respect your opinion, but I do have a different view.

17

This should read:
ā€œHer winME has problems now. So does her winXP.ā€

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@oldcpu

I agree with you almost 100%. Butā€¦ we are talking about OS v11.1

I would recommend SLED 10, OS 10.2, 10.3 and 11. I would also recomend Mandriva 2008 and 2008.1 but not 2009 over any windows or macosx platform. By the wayā€¦ right now my brother is moving from WinXP SP3 to OS11 GNOME which for me is a Victory :smiley:

My point isā€¦ v11.1 is very hard for newbies who come from Windows or Mac where they are only used to click and F*.
Now, my neighbor nextdoor, who uses Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex, is running into some issues and heā€™s planned to move to OSv11. His linux skills level are advanced, and of course heā€™s aware of all my problems with OS 11.1 GNOME 2.24 'cause he also run into the same issues. I did not even had to tell him to try OS11, he just came; a little angry, and grabbed my v11 DVD and took it to his house. So, for me, this tellsme Iā€™m not aloneā€¦
I strongly believe v11.1 is not ready for anyone whose linux skills are very basic. Or at least not in this right moment.

And the last but not the lessā€¦ have a wonderfull New Year (Everyone)

Luis

19

Far enough, but frankly, in going from openSUSE-10.3 KDE-3.5.7to openSUSE-11.1 KDE-3.5.10 Iā€™ve seen improvements. In going from openSUSE-11.0 KDE-3.5.9 to 11.1 KDE-3.5.10 Iā€™ve seen improvements. The few hiccups Iā€™ve seen in KDE-3.5.10 (kdenlive being one) are far outweighed by other positive factors in 11.1.

As for a newbie from Mac or Windows coming to 11.1, IMHO it makes no difference between 10.3, or 11.0 or 11.1. The shock will still be enormous.

Indeed! A wonderful new year to you, your family, and your friends.

20

I guess, I missed some things trying to get GNME working properly. However, being a GNME user and having KDE4 actually, I believe you should give KDE4 a tryā€¦ itā€™s really wortheit!!..

Luis