Recently in 2022, Ubuntu introduced snap firefox. Then you see people complain and switch to another distro.
Then they switch to Fedora and act like its an angel. Then after that, Fedora removes codecs. Boom switch to another distro.
Arch breaks. Boom. Switch to another distro.
They switch to Solus because its community based. Then suddenly said distro stops updates for a while because of lack of direction. Boom. Switch to another distro that is coporate based even though they said corporate distros are bad.
Like seriously, do most of the ranters have actual lives?
No offence to Fedora. I’m just tired of the linux community vouching for one distro and then calling it a devil when things go wrong.
I haven’t seen such problems with openSUSE, though some folk are unhappy with the uncertainty about what will happen at the end of the Leap 15.x series.
Personally, I have never liked Ubuntu. I suppose that’s a personal bias. I have tested Ubuntu from time to time, but have never been persuaded to move away from openSUSE.
You’ve told me things about Fedora that I didn’t know. Maybe I haven’t done enough switching to notice. Fedora has looked okay when I have tested it, but I have never been tempted to switch.
Arch is interesting, but I have never gone beyond testing. I do use their Wiki from time to time. I guess I expect to see Arch break at times, because of the way they are pushing the latest software.
Solus in interesting. I’ve tested it. There is something very elegant about it. But a basic install does not give me “vi” or “diff” (I can add those later). And I guess that has discouraged me from going beyond testing it. I did install their latest release in a VM a few days ago.
I haven’t seen that in the openSUSE community. It has been a good place to be. Thus far I have stayed with Leap, but I do sometimes think about moving to Tumbleweed.
I really should get around to installing MicroOS in a VM, so that I can gain some experience with it.
A possible reason is, computing has become invasive …
There are masses of people searching for a computing environment which can fulfil their needs and, their search for a possible ideal solution leads to frustration when something happens which is beyond their expectations of how a computing system should behave.
Which begs the question, has computing changed human behaviour or, have humans always used trial and error to progress the way they live?
Or, with old age have I become complacent with my life and, with what I have and, the way I live?
That particular change made Firefox take about 3 minutes to start on my then laptop, and using a nightly build just for it to be in deb form wasn’t really a solution. It wasn’t just about the introduction of snap firefox, it was the removal of deb firefox, and way the command to install deb firefox was altered to instead install snap firefox. If I could have just installed the version appropriate for my system there wouldn’t have been an issue, but the choice was removed from the user, which is pretty antithetical to the linux ethos, and the reason most of us don’t use Windows in the first place.
I think you’re being quite dismissive of people’s response to the decisions of the distro maintainers fundamentally impacting the usability of their system. I distro-hopped because I have an actual life, and I shouldn’t have to spend it waiting for Firefox to load.
Plus 3 minutes is exxagerated when i have a laptop with 8gb ram and firefox launches in 2-5 seconds.
Sure, i agree with you, the snap wasn’t ready for daily usage.
Ubuntu isn’t nessecarily evil. If snap works fine now, then why use deb?
Meanwhile, red hat drops libreoffice and no one speaks about it.
They talk about Ubuntu dropping flatpak yet no other distro ships with snap preinstalled and they don’t yell about it.
Sure, you might say its heading into a dead end, but they think its good for their use cases. Everything has advantages and disadvantages.
I’m just tired about people insulting a distro when they no longer use it.
It is not exaggerated. You might be astonished to learn that not all laptops are similarly specced to yours. Given the Linux userbase’s penchant for using ancient Thinkpads, your laptop is probably on the relative high end with its comparatively massive 8GB RAM.
Maybe this is my ignorance talking, but I didn’t think most people bought RHEL for office work. If I did happen to find myself on, probably a corporate machine, running RHEL and I needed to start writing spreadsheets on it, I’d probably just install it myself like I do any other software that isn’t installed by default.
As another thing, are you not paying attention? There is absolutely a Red Hat-based shitstorm happening right now…
The problem is that they’re everywhere. Ask a question about Ubuntu/Debian and many people will flood you with requests to switch to another distro for philosophical reasons even if their current one is working fine.
No, it doesn’t. You can sit here and contradict me all you like: you have not used my laptop or one similarly specced, so you just sitting with your fingers in your ears saying “nananananan i can’t hear you” is not ever going to be productive.
Again: it wasn’t working fine.
Again, they removed choice from the user to enable their own advantages and disadvantages, and effectively bricked my system for its particular usecase. From the furore, clearly I was not the only person impacted.
To be honest, you’re bashing one of the only good reasons to distrohop. Most distros are customisable enough that if you decide you want the defaults of another, you can basically do that. If you, for heaven only knows what reason, want a snap-based openSUSE machine, then you can do that. Removing something as fundamental as your web browser in any form that us usable to you? No one owes you contentment.
Everyone’s pc is different. It can all depend on system configuration.
I’m not trying to ignore you. It may still launch slow on others as your view
A snap-based openSUSE? I would never want that. I’m just saying that most people that use Ubuntu won’t bother about this. Sure, if they do, they could just switch to another distribution but not yell about how this other distro is trash or spread rumours like ‘openSUSE is a Jewish hating distro’.
I’m talking about people who recommend Arch for beginners but not point out its flaws.
To be honest, you pointed out your view and that’s actually valid, rather than saying ‘Ubuntu is dead.’
That’s the point, though. All of these reasons for hating a distro are valid if they can be backed up, and they usually are. Enough people who use Ubuntu do care about this because you’re complaining about people mentioning it and disro-hopping because of it. Ubuntu used to be the go-to distro to recommend to new people. These days it’s Mint, in part because of crap like Snaps.
When people complain about Manjaro, their experiences are valid. When people talk about the “flaws” in Arch, for that particular set of power user they’re not flaws. I moved to Tumbleweed because out of the box it did everything I was trying to force Kubuntu into doing and did it better, and did so without insisting on a prescriptive way of installing software that didn’t work for me.
Whenever you have people talking about their experience with Linux and various distributions, not everyone’s experience is going to be sunshine and rainbows, and that’s fine.
Because a large portion of the human population, has a burning desire to be “right” and have other people acknowledge their “rightness”.
It’s not a new phenomenon, join any “community” and you’re going to find the same thing, with oftentimes some of the same players. They get validation by slagging off $thing, and having other people agree with them that “Oh Yeah, $thing sucks”
Just learn to tune it out. Maybe start cutting down time on social media.
(When I say social media, I’m not talking about things like Twitter/Facebook, I’m including things like IRC, Discord, Forums, whatever, anywhere where you interact with other people, and exchange opinions.)
Sometimes a person just needs a palate cleanser. Go touch some grass, or pet your cat, or take a walk, whatever.
These people, and these idiotic discussions aren’t going to go anywhere anytime soon, especially with the impenetrable shield of the internet allowing for the relatively anonymous spewing of uninformed opinions, with very few consequences.
(Just for clarification, I am not calling anybody talking in this thread an idiot. I am using idiot as a general pejorative for non-specified bad actors in non-specified places)
I have been on Leap and it’s predecessor for 16 years.
I was on Mandrake and Debian but those became stale so I tried Fedora and it’s predecessor and it was fine. Some of what I needed at work was not in Fedora but was in Centos - so I switched. My employer decided that Red Hat wanted too much money and Microsoft offered support on SUSE so they switched and I reluctantly switched to OpenSUSE so work and home were the same.
I think that Leap will be dead for me as it requires btrfs in both Leap Micro and MicroOS. Tumbleweed will be how I go when 15.6 reaches EOL.
I have VirtualBox machines of many flavors of Linux and as long as they support ext4 files - I will test on them.
I have been on Unix and Unix like OS’s since 1974. You had to work to get a OS up and hope it was stable - we distributed out fixes and workarounds on BBS that MIT had available if you had a 300 baud modem to connect with. Sometime in the 1980’s I went from development to support and my programming skills started to evade me. I can script with the best of them, how they code now leaves me wondering how did they do that. I worked on 8K machines and dreamed of 32K machines. Now I have 64GB machines with 2TB NVMe’s that do more work in 1 minute than my old PDP11 did in a year (it had a 300bps tape for storage exchange and one RK05 (5MB) disk to run UNIX on for 4 DECwriter terminals - to back it up, I had to got to another University that had 4 RK05 drives to an image copy (dd came later) using pip. We watched the blinking lights on the front panel to make sure it was still running as response time was pretty long. A “C” program that I used in 1975 took 2 hours to run. On my gen 12 Intel CPU time is almost zero - real 0m0.004s sys 0m0.000s. Our Data Center had 2 banks of 3330 - that’s 2GB of storage that took 4 hours to read once. I get 1.5 GB /sec on my WD Black drive and want the Micron that goes 6.8 GB/sec.
Some of us do not need immutable systems as we know what we are doing. I see that as much like Microsoft Windows did for Administrators - you can no longer do everything you want in Windows - you have to hope that that service can be stopped or file can be deleted without resorting to reinstall. Now there are SuperAdminstrators any you cannot have that privilege any more.
People switch Linux distros just like they switch cars/trucks.
They had too many things break - so they went elsewhere.
They love the new styling - so they switched.
Their old Auto broke and that is what they found quickly to get going again. ( I did that - lightning struck my machine and I need a cheap machine until insurance paid. I bought a Best Buy special and had to use Sparky Linux on a machine that was 64 bit but had a 32 bit UEFI BIOS OpenSUSE would not install. I got rid of that $100 Lenovo the next month was back on 43.1 Leap).
Nothing has been decided about Leap, and whether it will be an immutable core or not. This has been stated a number of times, and been discussed ad nauseum, in many places. Yet you continue to insist that “Leap is going to become immutable” everytime it comes up.
I’m getting tired of it. Even SUSE isn’t going “full immutable” with all versions of the successors to SLE 15, they’ve already committed to keeping around a traditional SLE-like product, for those customers that wish to continue to use it. Which may be what the next “version” of Leap may be based on. It hasn’t been decided.
Why don’t you try doing any research, in the future, before continuing to repeat the same uninformed nonsense?
I’ve started off with openSUSE into the Linux environment and used it for a while. I then started quite a journey across other distributions: Mint, Ubuntu, Mageia, Manjaro, Arch, Siduction and now back to openSUSE Tumbleweed, after more than 10 years I think. I cannot say that I hate any of them. Every distro has it’s pros and cons and besides a phase of just trying things I used e.g. Arch for quite a long while because my netbook had just 2GB RAM and a storage of 32GB (eMMC) and it was perfect for that machine.
Now that I upgraded my memory and storage I switched to Tumbleweed for convenience. Arch is a really good distro but from time to time you run into problems that you can usually fix yourself but cost time.
What I wanted to say through this example: I think there are good reasons for distrohopping once in a while. Also there are naturally a lot of people in the Linux community who are really passionate about (F)OSS. I mean the whole idea of the open source community is kind of based on certain values as well. Otherwise you wouldn’t find so many developers that don’t do the job (entirely) for the money.
Imho sometimes indeed discussions tend to turn very ideologic or political. Think about the discussions sorrounding systemd when it was introduced and more and more distros started using it by default.
For me the discussion about the Red Hat corporate policy is exactly fitting this pattern. On one side you have IBM/Red Hat who want to earn money with their product and of course have no interest in Rocky or others distributing their code for free and on the other side you have the open source community that heavily contributes to Red Hat’s success through projects like Fedora. Now, if you are a passionate volunteer developer/maintainer working on Fedora, seeing that Red Hat is taking FOSS code from other projects and deciding to not offer their code for free anymore I can imagine that this corporate policy goes deeply against your own value.
I also find a lot of tensions in the Linux ecosystem are discussed very intense. Sometimes to a degree that I can’t relate to. It’s like reading comments on political stuff. Quite often in these things there is no right or wrong it’s different opinions and as in politics it can get very passionate. But just because it might be not as important to me doesn’t mean that it’s not to others.
From my point of view these “emotional outbursts” show that you have people who really care about a distro/Linux/FOSS and it’s values and technical viewpoints. After all that’s a good thing I guess.
First - I love Leap distro - the sad part is the that Leap is based on SUSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) - as of today, SLES 16 is going immutable, as that is what the companies that pay for SLES and keep it going think they want (the company I used to support wanted that 12 years ago). We get what they provide. There is not enough support anymore for a separate OpenSUSE Leap development - it is hard enough to keep the parts that SLES does not provide.
OpenSUSE Leap 15 is based on SLES 15 - OpenSUSE Leap 16 will be based on SLES 16. That is fact.
I doubt that there will be enough support to allow all the flavors of Leap in the future not to be immutable. I dislike the waste of space that rollback requires and how it is done. I have always done backup and restores the old fashioned way and with tar and rsync. I don’t trust the btrfs way - it is too complicated in my opinion - it might be fine for most folks but not for me.
Tumbleweed is not based on SLES - it is user supported. It is all volunteers doing the work. I help keep VirtualBox going with Larry Finger. That is why the Kernel is way ahead of Leap. I have multiple machines to test Leap and Tumbleweed. I choose what goes on my machines - It’s my machine and I will not allow btrfs on it. There are plenty of folks that think like I do about btrfs. Rollback (It’s a Walmart thing) is what business wants to get past mistakes - better quality control is what they need but don’t want to pay for.
https://get.opensuse.org/ Go here and try the new Leap Micro - btrfs required to install - MicroOS - btrfs required to install. I won’t even build virtual machines to test them as installs fail when ext4 is selected.