Ok, I have seen people say this a lot and would like to know what is wrong with using the 1-click installers?
I accept the point that you have more control over the install but the installers are meant for something very specific. I have personally not had any problems with a 1-click install and I like them. I do however always do into customise and make some adjustments but the idea is great.
I will admit that I am not the smartest OpenSUSE user here but it sure makes things easier for users.
Since you quoted me … my view is EXACTLY what you quoted. The problem with the one click, is if it is blindly used, one has no control over the repositories that it uses to install applications.
I’ve lost count of the number of users who used one-click to install multimedia apps, and ended up with a mix of packman and videolan applications, that were not compatible with each other. These users ended up with non-functioning multimedia applications.
Their comment? All they did was follow the one-click install that was recommended to them. … Recommended by whom? NOT by me.
Then there are the users who trashed their desktop after a one click of some update KDE-4.x.x version, that was newer than their Novell/SuSE-GmbH KDE4. Sure, updates can be done by one click, but one HAS TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. The trouble is one click treaches a philosophy of just click, and don’t worry about what you are doing, … one click will look after you no matter what. WRONG WRONG WRONG.
One click does have its place, but I still maintain it should be used judiciously, and as much as possible users should try find another way to install their applications, as opposed to the one click. A way in which they can be assured they get their applications from repositories that have a high confidence of rpms with good functionality, and good compatibility. One click does not yet have that “confidence” type check, IMHO.
I too like the idea of 1-Click installers and if I’m supporting someone on openSUSE from a distance they can be a helpful stopgap solution. But I agree with oldcpu in that they create the impression of magic, “just click the magic button and abracadabra you’re done!”
I think some of the problems lie with the default behaviour to “remain subscribed” to repos after the install. It’s an understandable default - presumably the user will want updates to the software they chose - but if you have repos that conflict (like VideoLAN & Packman) then it can cause more trouble than it solves.
[To be fair to the community hosted multimedia 1-click, the VideoLAN repo is no longer used.]
I think a key to 1-click is that they need to be created with the same level of care as an RPM. If things are just thrown together then it can be problematic. And that’s biggest part of my love-hate with 1-click installs…they are a support headache if they go wrong.
Because 1-click is specifically designed (seemingly) to play into the “next->next->finish” habit many Windows users bring with them, 1-click means when something goes wrong a beginner can’t tell the forum anything beyond “I clicked the magic button and it abraca-broke on me!”
While it’s true that users can be made to blindly add repos and download or upgrade things, at least such a user can point you to the repos they added and tell you what they did. Not to mention the process of adding a repo presents a barrier to entry that keeps most of the incapable from doing risky things (for their skill level). 1-click changes all of that. Worse, a 1-click user who doesn’t pay attention to the process (which is likely how their system got hosed) can only tell you what they clicked and what the link claimed it would install. As long as users go “next->next->finish” the link can say “KDE 4.2” but actually install something totally different (or at least not to expections). That hasn’t happened yet, but the security/reliability of centralised repos can be easily evaded with through obfuscated process of 1-click installers.
I think the 1 clicks should be kept to just 2 things that of the codecs & the video drivers. I must admit I see no reason to go beyond these 2. Why?
Look at this from the newbie perspective:
I’m coming in from a MSFT OS. I don’t know anything about codecs,I just can’t play anything. What do I do?
I can’t see the screen & can’t change the 1280x1024 to something I can read. How do I change it?
Now I read about a thing called “restricted formats” & I still don’t know what they are, but I have a simple one click for them GREAT!
Now I can play my stuff!
Now I know I have an Nvidia video card. In order to be able to see what I’m doing all I have to do is this Nvidia 1-click GREAT!
Wait I still can’t hardly see what I’m reading. I’ll ask in the forums I put in that Nvidia thingy, how do I get the 1024x768 I can read?
Oh they say to go to Yast>Hardware>Graphics card and Monitor, look for the resolution you want there. OK did that gee that yast is something! Now reboot Ok, WOW now I can see!
Now how do I get this KDE thing I’ve heard there’s a better version. How do I get that? Hey I’ll go to those forums.
Ok, now I’m back to me again as a Busy Penguin,what I wrote was a very condensed version of my own beginning adventure in Suse,way back at 10.0 which didn’t have 1-clicks. If it did though, that’s how I’d have done it.
Oh sure very likely would have asked if there was a 1-click for this or that. However, after I can read it & play my music I’d be ready to handle this new thing called a Package Manager.
That’s the way some people come into Opensuse. They know there’s a learning curve,but let’s make the initial & most vital parts the easiest. For that reason I think it should be kept to at least these the codecs & the video drivers.
All other programs can use the PM, because if I can’t read it I can’t use it. I need to have my music playing in the background so I can concentrate on what I’m doing.
Overall, there’s nothing wrong with 1-click it has its place it’s just that I think it’s going too far.
I love the 1-click install. I use it all the time. However, I think the main problem is it should be used to install one piece of software. The checkbox asking you if you want to subscribe to the repository should definitely be unchecked by default. It should not be used as an updater.
I’m afraid I agree with ‘oldcpu’, though I am guilty of quoting their use. What a hypocrite - I never use them myself and have seen the result of their use in users repo lists. No wonder their system gets messed up.
In my defense, i do normally take the long road to a solution in this respect. But of course the openSUSE site itself makes the recommendation in many areas, like currently kde4.2
I use the one click for my KDE 4.2 upgrade, multimedia, compiz and nvidia drivers. I do always customise it and mostly untick the box to not remain subscribed to the repo’s after I’m done. They have mostly worked but I can see all your points.
it did have the apeal of 1 click and I’m done.
Thank you all for your opinions. I will stop recommending the 1-clicks or talk people through them.
i have guarded respect for the 1-click method, both good and bad experiences.
after considering my unpleasant attempts (two to be exact) i think the concept is fine, but your fate is in the hands of the person that constructs the .ymp file, if it points wrong, you are left with a mess.
that said, the disadvantage of updating only through repo’s using yast2/zyppr is that you could possibly miss packages included in a major release that won’t show as a needed update or dependency, but is less likely to result in a broken machine.
I only use 1-click installers when I’ve found some software I couldn’t find on the usual repositories. I always take care to modify the settings before it installs so that I don’t end up with something like 50 repositories.
I’m pleased to have followed oldcpu’s advice to reduce complexity, by using only 4 basic repos and avoiding 1-click, when enabling or updating full multimedia support, for example. Doing this, I have experienced very few problems over several new releases of openSUSE.
However, I also agree with VorianGrey’s comments and I successfully use 1-click, but only for a single package/application, e.g from the Build Service. Normally I don’t keep the 1-click repo(s) after installation, but if I do keep for future use, it is disabled in YaST and only re-enabled for the duration of any required update.
I have found that this combined approach provides for easier control and understanding, should any problems occur:).
I’m massively lazy, so I’m a fan of the 1-click-installs. I always check to see what’s being installed though, and every now and then I tidy up my repositories.
I used to be happy with the oss, non-oss, update and packman repositories, but now I’ve taken a liking for having the latest and greatest KDE and firefox as well as some less well used programs which are only found in the peoples’ home repositories. It is so much easier to use the package search and 1-click-install than to go through the faff of adding a repository manually.
Certainly agree with that. If I had a spare higher-end spec machine, given where novell-openSUSE’s priorities are taking the distro, I would probably be doing more experimentation like you are.
For now, it’s good to have the Search and 1-click install just to get that important video driver or popular application that packman or openSUSE doesn’t include in the semi/official repos. Oh, but hang on, other distros provide those in their main repos, where trust is not an issue… rotfl!
