What future PDF ?

English Soapbox
#1

All, have you come across any discussion on the future of pdf ? According to this post it does not look rosy for this popular format for Linux Fans.

Adobe Reader - openSUSE

I would love to see a wide ranging discussion of how we move forward with or without pdf. There are times when we need a fully fledged pdf editor. Okular does a respectable job at reading pdf - all good, but at times we need something more. I would be prepared to pay for a Linux pdf editor. In the past I have used Foxit and PDF Architect, both good Windows pdf editors. I don’t know why they can’t offer them on Linux. And yes we may have to pay. Not all Linux Officianados are in the free software camp, especially if Linux is our daily work platform. But some software creators continue to be stuck in the past - head in the sand - and cannot see outside of their beloved Windows. Anyway moving ahead, should be be creating xml documents, and do we have a xml printer in cups similar to pdf printer?

What do you think? The pdf format has been great at our work place. Having a format that can be viewed easily in Windows or Linux has been a great thing for ease of use and balancing the Windows dominance. Do we/can we move to something else? In my case I would need a document printer that would be available in a CAD application for printing - alongside the pdf printer.

#2

You might be interested in reading this recent discussion

https://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/pre-release-beta/491849-there-will-not-acrobat-reader-13-1-a.html

#3

On 2014-01-01 02:26, cabernet wrote:
>
> All, have you come across any discussion on the future of pdf ?
> According to this post it does not look rosy for this popular format for
> Linux Fans.

Notice that there is no problem at all for normal users. You can create PDFs, read them in any
operating system, and print them. No problem at all. That part of PDF is a standard published long
ago and supported by many applications.

The people that are affected by Adobe leaving the Linux camp are people like me using certain
advanced features. For example, a signed and certified PDF document: in Linux you can not verify the
signature. Do you use those? I do, but do you?

The other feature are certain PDF Forms that use javascript code: the code is not supported in
Linux. Are you affected by that?

Your post does not mention any of those features, so you are not affected by this issue.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Elessar))

#4

I make use of the editing features in Adobe and Foxit freeware version, for marking up drawings, inserting notes etc.

#5

Have you installed Foxit Reader via wine? (I have 6.12.1224 installed for interest’s sake.) It might suffice for your needs. There is also a proprietary application called Able2Extract (can be downloaded for trial) that may allow you to edit/convert as required.

#6

I thought that xml was supposed to be an open document exchange format. Should we be producing xml documents for sharing with other staff and interchanging with other businesses?

#7

This is a simple ideology, but with complicated answers. :slight_smile:

The problem is Adobe employs a lot of proprietary formats such as XFA (Adobe XML Forms Architecture), which is not part of the PDF ISO 32000-1 standard.

Many would argue that using the OpenDocument file format (ODF) is the way to go

https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/XML_File_Formats

LibreOffice can be used to create PDF forms that can be read by other PDF viewers

Create PDF Forms with LibreOffice

#8

cabernet wrote:
>
> All, have you come across any discussion on the future of pdf ?
> According to this post it does not look rosy for this popular format for
> Linux Fans.
>
> ‘Adobe Reader - openSUSE’ (http://en.opensuse.org/Adobe_Reader)
>
> I would love to see a wide ranging discussion of how we move forward
> with or without pdf. There are times when we need a fully fledged pdf
> editor. Okular does a respectable job at reading pdf - all good, but at
> times we need something more. I would be prepared to pay for a Linux pdf
> editor. In the past I have used Foxit and PDF Architect, both good
> Windows pdf editors. I don’t know why they can’t offer them on Linux.
> And yes we may have to pay. Not all Linux Officianados are in the free
> software camp, especially if Linux is our daily work platform. But some
> software creators continue to be stuck in the past - head in the sand -
> and cannot see outside of their beloved Windows. Anyway moving ahead,
> should be be creating xml documents, and do we have a xml printer in
> cups similar to pdf printer?
>
> What do you think? The pdf format has been great at our work place.
> Having a format that can be viewed easily in Windows or Linux has been a
> great thing for ease of use and balancing the Windows dominance. Do
> we/can we move to something else? In my case I would need a document
> printer that would be available in a CAD application for printing -
> alongside the pdf printer.
>
>
Using Latest version of LibreOffice we can edit pdfs very well.
Screenshot available in below link

http://img.susepaste.org/view/raw/74024691

–
Version 3.10.2
openSUSE 13.1 (Bottle) (x86_64) 64-bit
Kernel Linux 3.11.6-4-desktop

#9

On 2014-01-01 12:16, deano ferrari wrote:
>
> cabernet;2612829 Wrote:
>> I thought that xml was supposed to be an open document exchange format.
>> Should we be producing xml documents for sharing with other staff and
>> interchanging with other businesses?
> This is a simple ideology, but with complicated answers. :slight_smile:
>
> The problem is Adobe employs a lot of proprietary formats such as XFA
> (Adobe XML Forms Architecture), which is not part of the PDF ISO
> 32000-1 standard.
>
> Many would argue that using the OpenDocument file format (ODF) is the
> way to go

I wonder what the municipality of Munich is using. They migrated entirely to Linux, over a well
designed path, which they took a decade to implement.

> https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/elibrary/case/limux-it-evolution-open-source-success-story-never

No mention of this particular problem.

> https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/XML_File_Formats
>
> LibreOffice can be used to create PDF forms that can be read by other
> PDF viewers

Yes. But the current problem is interacting with PDF forms created by others, containing javascript
code.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Elessar))

#10

On 2014-01-01 08:46, cabernet wrote:
> I make use of the editing features in Adobe and Foxit freeware version,
> for marking up drawings, inserting notes etc.

Ah. Editing.

Well, foxit does run under Wine, it works. Signature verification does not, though.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Elessar))

#11

Yes, I’m aware of this story. IIRC, LXF covered it a few years ago. I guess they use LO and other open-tools. For the most-part, they probably create ISO standard PDFs and I doubt whether they have to deal with the complications of forms with embedded java-script and signature verification.

I’m based in NZ, and my banks, IRD (tax documents), various utility companies (online billing), and councils (eg rates) all produce PDFs capable of being read with Okular. I simply haven’t encountered the situations you describe. (Even when I have had the odd form, I’ve either been able to edit it directly, or print it, fill it, and scan it as a PDF again.) The company I work for produces and emails a payslip PDF, and I have to enter a password before I can view it, but even then open-source software copes with that. I’m sure that similarly well-designed PDF documents are produced by the city of Munich.

#12

On 2014-01-01 18:16, deano ferrari wrote:

> I’m based in NZ, and my banks, IRD (tax documents), various utility
> companies (online billing), and councils (eg rates) all produce PDFs
> capable of being read with Okular. I simply haven’t encountered the
> situations you describe.

No, wait. You can read those forms with about any PDF reader. But you can not verify the signatures
embedded in the PDF with none but acroread (in Linux).

And you can read, print, and fill the XFA forms with several PDF vievers. But you can not interact
with the javascript functionality they can include. This may be irrelevant (it is in most cases),
but it could also be important.

This code can be used to do entry field verification, tax calculations, etc.

> open-source software copes with that. I’m sure that similarly
> well-designed PDF documents are produced by the city of Munich.

Yes, but the question is how they manage to produce legally binding signed documents with
cryptographic signatures, which nothing I know can create in Linux.

Or what they use for form filling that can be done outside of their network, by citizens, for
instance. Inside they use some type of form server, with centralized macros, from what I understand
from reading the article posted.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Elessar))

#13

I’ve never needed to worry about that. I download or get emailed a PDF, and I read it, or fill out a form and send it back - the same as any other document sent to me.

And you can read, print, and fill the XFA forms with several PDF vievers. But you can not interact
with the javascript functionality they can include. This may be irrelevant (it is in most cases),
but it could also be important.

This code can be used to do entry field verification, tax calculations, etc.[/QUOTE]

It’s never been an issue for any PDF I’ve received for work or personal reasons.

Yes, but the question is how they manage to produce legally binding signed documents with
cryptographic signatures, which nothing I know can create in Linux.

Or what they use for form filling that can be done outside of their network, by citizens, for
instance. Inside they use some type of form server, with centralized macros, from what I understand
from reading the article posted.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Elessar))

Obviously there is likely to be a number of different ways that this could be achieved. LO seems to be able capable of some of this

Digital signatures
https://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel-help/add-or-remove-a-digital-signature-in-office-documents-HA010099768.aspx

Adding a physical signature line
https://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/add-a-signature-line-HA102247419.aspx

In fact, I’m sure LO ODF documents could be designed to meet all the criteria if required.

#14

On 2014-01-01 22:56, deano ferrari wrote:
>
> robin_listas;2612919 Wrote:
>>
>> No, wait. You can read those forms with about any PDF reader. But you
>> can not verify the signatures
>> embedded in the PDF with none but acroread (in Linux).
> I’ve never needed to worry about that. I download or get emailed a PDF,
> and I read it, or fill out a form and send it back - the same as any
> other document sent to me.

I get all my invoices and receipts as signed PDFs. ALL of them. I can not verify the signatures in
Linux, period. They can be falsified and I wouldn’t know. Would you pay receipts which you suspect,
no, know, can be easily forged?

The issue is real, not a joke.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Elessar))

#15

I not only get PDFs emailed, but I can verify my account and pay online at any time. (I wouldn’t get fooled by real mail or email - they warrant the same diligence IMHO.)

In any case I have direct debit set up with the trusted companies concerned.

#16

Yes pdf docs are very prevalent in business and personal spheres. And they reach outside of text into graphics and CAD work. They are not about to disappear. What may vanish is any serious ability to manipulate them on a Linux boxen, unless we opt for Foxit running under wine. Personally I would like to be able to print something beside pdf for graphics and CAD documents. But I am probably asking too much here.

#17

On 2014-01-02 01:06, cabernet wrote:

> Yes pdf docs are very prevalent in business and personal spheres. And
> they reach outside of text into graphics and CAD work. They are not
> about to disappear. What may vanish is any serious ability to manipulate
> them on a Linux boxen, unless we opt for Foxit running under wine.
> Personally I would like to be able to print something beside pdf for
> graphics and CAD documents. But I am probably asking too much here.

Printing PDFs is no problem at all. Some Linux applications default to PDF as printer language
instead of postscript. Have no fears in that respect.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Elessar))

#18

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 22:17:51 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2014-01-01 22:56, deano ferrari wrote:
>>
>> robin_listas;2612919 Wrote:
>>>
>>> No, wait. You can read those forms with about any PDF reader. But you
>>> can not verify the signatures embedded in the PDF with none but
>>> acroread (in Linux).
>> I’ve never needed to worry about that. I download or get emailed a PDF,
>> and I read it, or fill out a form and send it back - the same as any
>> other document sent to me.
>
> I get all my invoices and receipts as signed PDFs. ALL of them. I can
> not verify the signatures in Linux, period. They can be falsified and I
> wouldn’t know. Would you pay receipts which you suspect,
> no, know, can be easily forged?
>
> The issue is real, not a joke.

I found this:

http://askubuntu.com/questions/226257/how-can-i-validate-a-pdfs-digital-
signature-with-evince

Looks interesting. Maybe try building with the evince patches suggested
on OBS and see if it works for you.

I understand the issue is real for you and not a joke, but at the same
time, I wonder why one would do business with someone who’s not honest
enough to provide correct invoices.

I submit unsigned invoices to my project coordinator/employer, and she
pays them no problem. Probably because she wouldn’t do business with me
if she didn’t trust me to be accurate in my reporting of the work I’ve
done and the time it took.

It strikes me, though, that if the source might falsify the content and
digitally sign it, the digital signature is still going to be valid. So
I’m not sure even after all the explanations you’ve given in various
community areas what exactly the problem is that you’re having here.

I mean, if it’s a potential for someone to send you a fake invoice to be
paid under someone else’s name, it seems trivial to get in touch with a
representative of the organization that’s named on the invoice to get
verification and documentation based on the invoice number.

If the invoice number is falsified, and the organization is providing the
false information, a digital signature isn’t going to prevent that from
happening - they’d be just as willing to sign a bogus invoice as to
provide an invoice based on bogus paperwork.

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#19

That’s how I see it too.

#20

On 2014-01-02 07:40, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 22:17:51 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> The issue is real, not a joke.
>
> I found this:
>
> http://askubuntu.com/questions/226257/how-can-i-validate-a-pdfs-digital-
> signature-with-evince
>
> Looks interesting. Maybe try building with the evince patches suggested
> on OBS and see if it works for you.

It does (look interesting). I’ll wait. :slight_smile:

They say:

+++····························
So, you can experiment with the github development code if you wish, but it may not be a good idea
to patch poppler as other programs depend on it; however, it is likely that the digital signatures
feature will be available soon if it is integrated upstream. Judging by the evince screenshots for a
valid and invalid signature the patches do seem to be enabling just the features you are interested in.
····························+±

Meanwhile, I’ll use acroread in a jail or something.

From that post it seems that the devs are becoming aware of the problem and acting, so that’s good.
Thanks for finding it and posting it here :slight_smile:

> I understand the issue is real for you and not a joke, but at the same
> time, I wonder why one would do business with someone who’s not honest
> enough to provide correct invoices.

As signed PDFs are a legally binding documentation in Spain, everybody is using them. That Linux
does not support those is of no consequence to people, as Windows is the de facto standard. It is my
fault for using experimental and unfinished and unprofessional software such as Linux.

That’s what they say, obviously, not me. But they have a point.

I have no choice, in any case.

> I submit unsigned invoices to my project coordinator/employer, and she
> pays them no problem. Probably because she wouldn’t do business with me
> if she didn’t trust me to be accurate in my reporting of the work I’ve
> done and the time it took.
>
> It strikes me, though, that if the source might falsify the content and
> digitally sign it, the digital signature is still going to be valid. So
> I’m not sure even after all the explanations you’ve given in various
> community areas what exactly the problem is that you’re having here.

No, the source would not falsify the documentation. I’m thinking of a man in the middle type of
attack. And the fact that the legal validity of documentation is broken on my end.

> I mean, if it’s a potential for someone to send you a fake invoice to be
> paid under someone else’s name, it seems trivial to get in touch with a
> representative of the organization that’s named on the invoice to get
> verification and documentation based on the invoice number.

In theory, yes :slight_smile:

In reality, I just boot up Windows and check the document there.

Sigh.

See, there are several proprietary and very used software pieces that are abandoning the Linux camp.
Why? Flash, Acroread… Are they an attempt to force stop collaboration between the Windows and Free
camps, limited as it were?

(Yes, flash is evil. But it is needed).

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Elessar))