the beat goes on..

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#1

it is working…that is, they will kill off nntp (and the presumably
‘old heads’ who wanna use that means)…or at least they are so very
close to running me off…

why, the group named General (and some others) has(have) no appeal to
me…which is not a problem as ‘unsubscribe’ is real easy in
Thunderbird…but, then i go to Applications (or any of the others) and
find LOTS of threads popping up with subject lines beginning with “Re:”
and finding a post answering a question that i can’t see…

so far the ONLY ways to view the actual thread (prior to it being moved)
to find the question AND the previous answers is to go to the web forum
(which i just don’t intend to do) or search though ALL the other fora to
find the snipped stub…

i just did that and find too many abandoned threads to count in
General…all being moved by one, i sure well meaning, person
“kastorff”…s/he is really good at “cleaning up” some of the talk
places and making sure everyone follows the what-is-posted-where rules…

i wondered what else he is contributing to the cause, and joined the web
forum and searched up all his postings…it is about (i didn’t actually
count, but i guess) 30 messages moved to 1 with any other content, at
all…maybe i’m wrong but it seems like he is (or has appointed
himself) as the what-is-posted-where-Police, only…

which is perfectly ok with me…assuming it is perfectly okay with the
strategy Novell has outlined for what they are trying to do with the
‘community’…

i WONDER, however, if you have the influence and/or the technical
expertise necessary to try to chart another course…i guess it is a
matter of first building a method in which web side moved posts are
echoed in their new home (so nntp folks have a CLUE what is going on
in the thread)…

notice i didn’t say moved because i heard often enough already how
difficult to impossible that is…but, it is NOT impossible for a
patient person intent on moving a thread to:

  • open a nntp client

  • open a new post to the desired new location

  • copy message text and paste EVERY existing thread posting into the new

  • press send

  • go to the old thread and post the thread closed as usual (in the web
    environment if desired…even if slower)

  • note: it will NOT be necessary to also move the thread in the web
    environment…just delete them in the old (wrong) place…because, the
    entire thread will be shown in the opening post in the correct place…

will the new thread with several posts in the originating it be “as
pretty” as the old way? No. So?

sure it will be a LITTLE more difficult (i guess) than the current way
which is just killing me…

i’d guess some bright person might even be able to write a script which
would automagically do ALL of that…the staff might only have to click
on the thread source (in the wrong place) and spin the dial to where
s/he wishes it to be…and click ok!!

AND, i’d guess it might be possible to in that same two click script an
information update to ‘bot’ to periodically crawl the nntp server
looking for any posts to the (script named) abandoned threads, and
auto-add them to their correct/new location…

i know i’m just one…but, i’m afraid, for me the handwriting is on the
wall…i’m about ready to bail…it is just too hard.

–
DenverD (Linux Counter 282315)
A Texan in Denmark

#2

Its the same on both sides :wink:

Can’t please either sides it seems Broken Threads - openSUSE Forums

#3

DenverD wrote:
> it is working…that is, they will kill off nntp (and the presumably
> ‘old heads’ who wanna use that means)…or at least they are so very
> close to running me off…
>
> why, the group named General (and some others) has(have) no appeal to
> me…which is not a problem as ‘unsubscribe’ is real easy in
> Thunderbird…but, then i go to Applications (or any of the others) and
> find LOTS of threads popping up with subject lines beginning with “Re:”
> and finding a post answering a question that i can’t see…
>
> so far the ONLY ways to view the actual thread (prior to it being moved)
> to find the question AND the previous answers is to go to the web forum
> (which i just don’t intend to do) or search though ALL the other fora to
> find the snipped stub…
>
You are right, the beat does go on and the drone of the drum is over the
same issue. The staff is trying to work with both NNTP users and web
users so that both protocol users can use the reader they like. The main
issue is that certain NNTP users complain about threads being moved as
well as certain web users complaining about broken threads appearing.
Seems like those certain users on both sides are a small minority and I
would hate to see the voice of the small effect the majority (and I
don’t mean NNTP vs web users total).
> i just did that and find too many abandoned threads to count in
> General…all being moved by one, i sure well meaning, person
> “kastorff”…s/he is really good at “cleaning up” some of the talk
> places and making sure everyone follows the what-is-posted-where rules…
>
Yes, there are certain places to post and General is under community.
Community is for talking about things, not helping on issues. That is
why there is a help section and we do not want General to become a catch
all for users.
> i wondered what else he is contributing to the cause, and joined the web
> forum and searched up all his postings…it is about (i didn’t actually
> count, but i guess) 30 messages moved to 1 with any other content, at
> all…maybe i’m wrong but it seems like he is (or has appointed
> himself) as the what-is-posted-where-Police, only…
>
You need not concern yourself on what he or any other staff member has
contributed. Since the board opened a month ago, a lot of the staff is
busy doing staff functions which takes time out of helping. Hey, just
look at my posts, there may not be a lot of help threads since the merge
but check the archives and there will be. Point is, posts are indicitive
of contributing as there are other things to do when running a board
besides trying to help, hopefully that is what other users can do for now.
> which is perfectly ok with me…assuming it is perfectly okay with the
> strategy Novell has outlined for what they are trying to do with the
> ‘community’…
>
Novell has no strategy since they are not involved. This is a
community forum just like a community release.
> i WONDER, however, if you have the influence and/or the technical
> expertise necessary to try to chart another course…i guess it is a
> matter of first building a method in which web side moved posts are
> echoed in their new home (so nntp folks have a CLUE what is going on
> in the thread)…
>
What did you do, give people a week? Look the issues between NNTP and
HTTP will be worked on but in my estimation will take a while to figure
everything out. It seems like you have an unrealistic idea of when
things should be fixed by.
> notice i didn’t say moved because i heard often enough already how
> difficult to impossible that is…but, it is NOT impossible for a
> patient person intent on moving a thread to:
>
> - open a nntp client
>
> - open a new post to the desired new location
>
> - copy message text and paste EVERY existing thread posting into the new
>
> - press send
>
> - go to the old thread and post the thread closed as usual (in the web
> environment if desired…even if slower)
>
Things don’t work like that on the web side so moving threads get worked
on differently. And I’m sorry but I doubt 1 staff member is going to
paste every post that was written into the new thread. That is way to
time consuming and also unrealistic when a user can just pop open their
NNTP client and look at the original thread to see what was written already.
> - note: it will NOT be necessary to also move the thread in the web
> environment…just delete them in the old (wrong) place…because, the
> entire thread will be shown in the opening post in the correct place…
>
Be even more of a mess that way as it kills the whole original flow of
who wrote what to who, what they were replying to, etc.
> will the new thread with several posts in the originating it be “as
> pretty” as the old way? No. So?
>
Nothing to do with looks.
> sure it will be a LITTLE more difficult (i guess) than the current way
> which is just killing me…
>
A little?
> i’d guess some bright person might even be able to write a script which
> would automagically do ALL of that…the staff might only have to click
> on the thread source (in the wrong place) and spin the dial to where
> s/he wishes it to be…and click ok!!
>
Same thing with the NNTP side, we would need to find someone that knew
the protocol and the software and have then create the mod. Would
probably take the same amount of time as getting the NNTP side to move
and cancel/delete threads.
> AND, i’d guess it might be possible to in that same two click script an
> information update to ‘bot’ to periodically crawl the nntp server
> looking for any posts to the (script named) abandoned threads, and
> auto-add them to their correct/new location…
>
You have a lot of ideas and thoughts on how easy all these changes are,
why not see if you can create these fixes to help better the community?
> i know i’m just one…but, i’m afraid, for me the handwriting is on the
> wall…i’m about ready to bail…it is just too hard.
>
> –
> DenverD (Linux Counter 282315)
> A Texan in Denmark
That is your feeling and your choice. You’ll need to make the decision
on what you should do for yourself.

#4

Seems like those certain users on both sides are a small minority and I
would hate to see the voice of the small effect the majority (and I
don’t mean NNTP vs web users total).

Seems we’re the minority that like to read threads in context.

Oh well, I have to say I would thought that would be the majority.

I stepped down over this because it was rushed in and the implications where never thought about.

#5

I even suggested a more generic forum to assist the lack of moving needed, but that got dismissed.

#6

FeatherMonkey wrote:
>> Seems like those certain users on both sides are a small minority and I
>> would hate to see the voice of the small effect the majority (and I
>> don’t mean NNTP vs web users total).
>
>
> Seems we’re the minority that like to read threads in context.
>
I don’t see what the actual issue is on the web side. All the broken
threads have been and are getting merged now so you do get to see
threads in context.
> Oh well, I have to say I would thought that would be the majority.
>
The minority I was speaking about was people coming out and saying it is
an issue. So far there has been a minority of users saying it was an
issue on both sides of the argument.
> I stepped down over this because it was rushed in and the implications
> where never thought about.
>
>
And that is/was your choice. I don’t believe so, I see the upside to
NNTP as well as the downside to it. I say the same can be said on the
web side and I think we are doing a pretty good job so far trying to
delicately balance the 2.

What “implications” do you see besides broken threads that later get
merged together with the original content?

#7

Honestly you have threads around here from both sides. You tried to please both but I’m not sure you managed it.

You seem to of created a greater load for the moderation team with little benefit. It seems moderators and I believe even your self admitted, have less time actually helping.

#8

If you actually had a generic catch all you wouldn’t need to move as many posts, people could still ignore them if they didn’t like the idea.

Moderators or such like could give assistance and gently point the poster in the generic catch all to the correct place. But these are arguments I’ve voiced before and where pointless first time around.

#9

FeatherMonkey wrote:
> Honestly you have threads around here from both sides. You tried to
> please both but I’m not sure you managed it.
>
> You seem to of created a greater load for the moderation team with
> little benefit. It seems moderators and I believe even your self
> admitted, have less time actually helping.
>
>
But I don’t see that as the fault of NNTP use. I see that the fault of
members posting threads where they shouldn’t be. The same would be done
if it was a web only interface honestly so i don’t see the difference there.

#10

FeatherMonkey wrote:
> If you actually had a generic catch all you wouldn’t need to move as
> many posts, people could still ignore them if they didn’t like the
> idea.
>
> Moderators or such like could give assistance and gently point the
> poster in the generic catch all to the correct place. But these are
> arguments I’ve voiced before and where pointless first time around.
>
>
The problem with a generic catch all is that it catches all. ow you have
every post there and no one using the correct forum/subforum. It would
be more of a chaos there. That is just my opinion though.

#11

Or we have moderators just moving and fixing threads, hell normal users can point them to the correct place.

But you’ll have less broken threads, less work for the moderation team, meaning they can get back to actually helping.

Which of those 2 sounds good to you? The oh dear the noob doesn’t know where to post or someone breaks a thread? Which have to be followed up with constantly in case some one from NTTP posts.

I know which one I would prefer and offered to take the catch all as my own forum as there was so much contention, due to people wishing to move things from it. The thing is you don’t move things from it you stickie it and if helping in there you gently point them to the correct place.

So a few may need a couple of reminders but not the majority after a little experience and a few pointers to the correct place they’ll have an idea where to post.

But I’m tired of this go read my posts in the mod area I’m not rehashing them here.

At the moment you have general being the catch all any way, and just break that. You can’t change people over night some people simply wont know where to post, so give them a place to learn in.

#12

From what I’ve worked out 46/122 have been moved.

That’s 46 threads that could cause you trouble, had there been a generic none would of been moved. But 46 people would of been helped and told where to post and no broken threads.

So 1/3 posts in general are unsure where it should be.

#13

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:03:54 +0000, DenverD wrote:

> it is working…that is, they will kill off nntp (and the presumably
> ‘old heads’ who wanna use that means)…or at least they are so very
> close to running me off…

Dude, chill. Change takes time.

Jim

#14

Thread moved to Forums Comments/Suggestions

#15

kastorff wrote:

>
> -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
>
> Thread temporarily closed.
>
>

Ah, the irony…

Loni

L R Nix
lornix@lornix.com

#16

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:51:53 GMT
L R Nix <lornix@lornix.com> wrote:

> kastorff wrote:
>
> >
> > -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
> >
> > Thread temporarily closed.
> >
> >
>
> Ah, the irony…
>
> Loni
For sure, but you should really have posted your reply to the correct
forum…

–
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
SLED 10 SP2 i586 Kernel 2.6.16.60-0.23-default
up 15:36, 2 users, load average: 0.58, 0.42, 0.48
GPU GeForce Go 6600 TE/6200 TE Version: 173.14.09

#17

Malcolm wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:51:53 GMT
> L R Nix <lornix@lornix.com> wrote:
>
>> kastorff wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
>> >
>> > Thread temporarily closed.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Ah, the irony…
>>
>> Loni
> For sure, but you should really have posted your reply to the correct
> forum…
>

Uh, I did. I pressed ‘reply…’. Knode sent the message to the group the
thread existed in.

It’s ok, I’m sure kastorff or someone will move it.

I’m an nntp user… the thread exists in community.general. NOW, it’s broken,
with no continuity. I had to search for where it was originally, as someone
previous in the thread so kindly said I should do. Sorry, if I have to spend
time to look for the original question of a thread… I won’t, and I’ll move
on. My ‘oldtimer’ expertise will be lost to that person. Or I’ll post to
the original thread as I see it, someone will break it by ‘helpfully moving
it’, and I’ll not see the thread again, figuring it’s forgotten or solved.

I believe we should TEACH the ‘newbies’… yes, they post in inappropriate
areas. They’re naive… not ignorant or stupid. forums, newsgroups,
usenet… these are all alien ideas to the new generations… to them, the
web exists ONLY has archaic email and http addresses. nntp? smtp? ftp? ssh?
telnet?!? OMG!!

The internet is a vast ocean, with currents and rivers of information moving
beneath the pretty www surface. We should educate them, but not coddle them.
I agree that they should be gently reminded that their post should be made in
whatever forum is appropriate and help them do so. Over time, it’ll sink in.

Oh no!! I’ve said too much, kastorff will move my post to ‘soapbox’ now!!!
Yes, kastorff for one, has annoyed me with his overzealous “thread
temporarily closed, moved to xxx.xxx”. I counted. Yesterday, he had 670
posts… of which more than 600 were… “thread temporarily closed,
moved…”.

And his attitude has changed. In the early posts, he was nice, considerate,
helpful even. Now he’s surly, defensive, and “holier than thou”… “I’m a
site admin!”. Oh, don’t joke about his status, he gets upset.

I suppose having to deal with all those danged newbies posting to wrong forums
and messing up his preciousssss is disheartening. They’re newbies!! get
over it! Teach them! Isn’t that an underlying theme behind linux anyways?

Yup, I’m doomed… soapbox. darn!

Take Care,

Loni

–
L R Nix
lornix@lornix.com

#18

I will politely point out, publically berating someone is frowned upon here.please desist as i would hate to lock a thread because of it

Andy

#19

Soap box indeed. I like Jim Henderson’s comment, … “… chill. Change takes time”.

We all have day jobs. This is a volunteer effort. Some of us have either never seen NNTP before, and one user in particular who had tried NNTP before had a very strong dislike to it when he first saw it and voted against it (that would be me).

Having stated that I am committed to making it work, as are others.

But this takes time to sort the best method, and I’m not going to lose my day job over trying to figure out the ins-and-outs of this. I don’t think any of the rest of us will either. We like to get paid. We like the salary that comes every month from a job that has nothing to do with Linux.

In the interim we are doing our best to provide a service to the users, in the best manner our experience allows us.

Eventually we will obtain an optimum solution, but IMHO it is NOT going to happen tomorrow, nor IMHO next week, and maybe IMHO neither next month. In the interim we will do our best, and to avoid pushing us into a course that not everyone will like, … how about cutting us some slack! :rolleyes:

As Jim Henderson notes… … “… chill. Change takes time”.

#20

deltaflyer44 wrote:

>
> I will politely point out, publically berating someone is frowned upon
> here.please desist as i would hate to lock a thread because of it
>
> Andy
>
>

Wait… lock a thread… OH NO!! I couldn’t post in this thread then. Uh,
nice threat.

Wasn’t berating anyone, simply agreeing with a previous poster that certain
patterns of activity have been noticed.

I’d rather take the time to teach the new members to linux and these forums.
I use nntp to access these forums. Various “admins” breaking threads make it
difficult to do so. Everyone urges web forum access instead. That is an
inefficient method to me for reading the volume of posts involved.

The web forums, on the other hand, are a VERY efficient method for the new
person to post questions and find answers. The ‘thread moved’ issue doesn’t
affect those users, which a good thing. So I can see the benefits of both
sides of the forums.

Now, if I could convice my newsreader to combine certain groups, or all
groups, it could follow the threads easily. It doesn’t, and, like others, I
subscribe to several hundred or more. Searching for the beginning of a
thread is often daunting.

You have a wonderful thing here, these forums are great for the new people,
and an example of what goes right within communities.

I just see it as some people taking their “jobs” waaay too seriously. I’d
rather a person get their problem solved and have a good feeling about linux,
opensuse, forums, and so on… than to see we’re nothing but a group of
control freaks with OCD and God complexes. So they posted in the wrong
place? {shrug} This is the new age… why not just make a single huge
group, and let everything get posted in there regardless. No broken threads,

never mind.

You’re right, this is pedantic. I’m being childish, whatever.

Take care,

Loni

–
L R Nix
lornix@lornix.com