Suse should change the bootable politic

Well, I have vista and Xp installed yet.
To install Suse, there are something bad manner of GBR.
Suse force the install GRUB in kicking Vista and Xp
MBR.

Ubuntu, I think is more intelligent for that. It ask
you to install GBR on your convinience. It can you
install on MBR or on Ubuntu partition.

(I am sorry for my english )

On 2009-02-24, dionnode <dionnode@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
> To install Suse, there are something bad manner of GBR.
> Suse force the install GRUB in kicking Vista and Xp
> MBR.

Incorrect…

> Ubuntu, I think is more intelligent for that. It ask
> you to install GBR on your convinience. It can you
> install on MBR or on Ubuntu partition.

You can do the same during YaST install.

> (I am sorry for my english )

We all are.

Kind regards,
Andreas Stieger

This does seem to be a common complaint though. Maybe the setting should be made more prominent…

I agree, this is a common complaint and perhaps a change during the bootloader install is needed. We are, after all, trying to make the process easier for newcomers.

And dionnode, you need never apologise for your English. The fact that you make the effort to speak a second language is apology enough for me.

On 2009-02-25, saltyp <saltyp@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
> I agree, this is a common complaint and perhaps a change during the
> bootloader install is needed. We are, after all, trying to make the
> process easier for newcomers.

Oh not this “easier for newcomers” nonsense. It’s my honest opinion that this
repeated point in based on a concept of training the users to be idiots. The
actual “common complaint” is that some people neither RTFM or look at what is
presented to them on the screen.
http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_DVD_Install#Step_8:_Installation_overview
The location of GRUB is printed on the screen, the user is advised about the
pending modifications when he clicks “Install”, including the phrase “Go back
and check the setting if you are unsure”.

Kind regards,
Andreas Stieger

How does removing the automatic setup of multiple OS supporting bootloader make it “easier” for newcomers?

Let’s imagine this:

Regular Joe installs SUSE - does not install Grub as it no longer defaults to being installed. He then proceeds to reboot the machine after the installation.

Where’s the bootloader? The only thing I get is XP/Vista. How can I boot Linux?

Yes, definitely making it easier for the user.

@Chrysantine
@AndreasStieger

Both of you make points I am in agreement with. But it’s not that we are training users to be idiots, they are idiots, and in large measure you can blame M$ for that.

Never yet have I had issue with the bootloader. But I certainly can see how newbies get caught out. I’m not sure though, that it is possible to make the installer ‘all seeing/all knowing’. But short of that, I feel all we could do is offer up a ‘WARNING’.

Seriously - any user who is about to partition a drive by shrinking the existing windows install. MUST know what they are doing OR suffer the consequences. Yes, it might put some off taking up Linux, but that has to be better than putting them thru Hell and back.

Totally agree: USERS! please read the copious amounts of install help and advice.

This was flagged some time back, as something users in 11.1 need be aware of.

If one reads our forum installation guide:
NEWBIES - Suse-11.1 Pre-installation – PLEASE READ - openSUSE Forums

Please note the quote:

**7. Installation Menu **

If you have a simple PC setup, with only a single MS-Windows partition on your drive, then likely you can leave the “Use Automatic Configuration” selected. BUT if you believe you may have to change the location of the openSUSE boot manager GRUB in your Master Boot record then you MUST deselect “Use Automatic Configuration”. If you do not, you will NOT be able to control the location of your boot manager GRUB.

Presumeably everyone read that effort on our part on this forum to help, and this complaint is inspite of that ? [and if so, fair enough] … and if you did NOT read it: Why not? What can we on the forum do to make this more obvious than the stickie we already created?

I’m not suggesting the thing should be designed to hold users hands the whole way through, or, God forbid, to reduce functionality for the sake of simplicity.

But I do think, especially when having limited English like this user, expecting them to not only RTFM but stickies in forums is unrealistic.

I think the number of people who have run into this problem indicates clearly that it should have a more prominent warning in the installer.

Not that what it does should be changed - just that it should be more obvious what it’s doing.

Thats great, except we are NOT the developers on this forum. We are users like you. We can post guidance, where we think it might help, and that is the idea of a stickie.

Many users DO visit our forum around the time of a new SuSE build, and the stickie does help many new users.

If you want more, and if you feel strongly about this (and clearly you do, based on your input to this thread), then IMHO YOU need to contact the developers.

Posting here is not IMHO going to further your goal (assuming your goal is to see this improved).

As noted, on this volunteer based forum, all we can do is try to help with the way things ARE, not change the way things will BE.

In the forum we simply try to help users with the exisiting system … we do not control the end product, nor indeed do we have any direct access to the developers.

IMHO, if you are serious about pursing this, to get it set up the way you believe it should be setup, then the thing for you do do is to raise a bug report on the Installer sequence (or words to that effect) wrt the warning about where Grub is to be installed. http://en.opensuse.org/Submitting_Bug_Reports

In the forum we simply try to help users with the exisiting system … we do not control the end product, nor indeed do we have any direct access to the developers.

Very true - and I recognise that people here are volunteers, and didn’t intend to come across as demanding.

This isn’t a bug though, is it? Perhaps it would be better logged in openfate, and people can vote on it as they will…

I’m busy right now, but will consider it in a few days - but if anybody feels strongly about it and wants to go ahead…

Confuseling wrote:
> I’m not suggesting the thing should be designed to hold users hands the
> whole way through, or, God forbid, to reduce functionality for the sake
> of simplicity.
>
> But I do think, especially when having limited English like this user,
> expecting them to not only RTFM but stickies in forums is unrealistic.
>
> I think the number of people who have run into this problem indicates
> clearly that it should have a more prominent warning in the
> installer.
>
> Not that what it does should be changed - just that it should be more
> obvious what it’s doing.

Well those two things don’t fit together. So he’s limited in language and
whatnot, but is demonstrating knowledge about the difference beween
overwriting the MBR code and not doing so by complaining about it. Why didn’t
he just apply that knowledge in the first place?

Kind regards,
Andreas Stieger

Sorry Andreas - didn’t see your post, and the above was directed at oldcpu.

I think if anything him having come up against this problem despite having some linux competence argues for my point.

All I’m saying is if it’s befuddling enough to need to be mentioned in the sticky, and users aren’t going to read the sticky for various reasons, and many are running up against this problem, you don’t need to be bowing to the ‘make everything as simple as possible’ brigade to make it more obvious in the installer. However, it’s a while since I’ve installed openSUSE, and hopefully I’ll be putting it on another disk in a few days, and I’ll have a think about it then and decide whether I think it’s worth filing something on openfate.

This is always a quandry for me. … How do we express our views to the developers … in a way thats helpful for the community, and also helpful for the developers. … I confess I tend overuse to use the “bug mechanism” for this.

Maybe we need somewhere, an easy to find way of listing, as to how this influence can be done (written by someone who knows more than I) and how we can ensure the developers get a balanced input .

This is hardly ‘blue skies thinking’, I agree. :slight_smile:

But to me it falls under ‘feature request’ rather than bug. I guess because openfate is relatively new, it’s mostly populated by peoples epic dreams and major bugbears, but once it’s filled out a bit there’s no reason low priority / scale requests can’t have a home there too…

You cannot blame Microsoft (or Apple) for it any more than you can blame microwave makers and microwave-ready foods for making people idiots and not able to cook a meal from scratch! Or blaming Grocery Stores for making people idiots and not know how to hunt/fish/trap their food, skin it and prepare it for cooking!

Unless they are buying a computer with Linux installed they will need to know more than the average computer consumer. HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. all do the partitioning, configuring, installing and installing drivers (and crapware) for the user yet in Linux that has to be handled by US (Linux consumer)!

The amount of documentation one has to read is going to cause some people to choose not to do it (or worse, try and do it and whine/complain/give up when something doesn’t work perfectly the first time) and that’s fine. For those people that pass this initiation it doesn’t hurt to make things easy, available and understandable.

Ubuntu handles this by making the installation easy enough that when the user reboots they are “roughly” where they would be if they were booting into their Windows or OS X computer for the first time (or better because applications are installed, but skip that for the moment)

Would it hurt to make the default settings as newbie friendly with the provisions for those people who are inclined to do something different to be able to?! Never remove the functionality, but make smart default settings for those that don’t understand (yet).

It took me many, many (many^n…) installations to screwing up to learn what I’ve learned so far and I still get myself into trouble (nobody says I’m the fastest learner :stuck_out_tongue: ).

Individuals who find themselves institutionalized - End up having decisions made for them, the ability to think for themselves and solve problems becomes greatly reduced.
Microsoft has basically done just this.

I’m not trying to be anti M$.

They’re an exemplary case - responsible to an extent, but I think it’s a wider social trend.

Are McDonalds responsible for fat people? Well, maybe some of them… :wink:

Well, I have vista and Xp installed yet.
To install Suse, there are something bad manner of GBR.
Suse force the install GRUB in kicking Vista and Xp
MBR.

What is “GBR”? You are not referring to grldr, are you??

Ubuntu, I think is more intelligent for that. It ask
you to install GBR on your convinience. It can you
install on MBR or on Ubuntu partition.

Actually, the openSUSE Boot Loader module is much more intelligent and powerful than Ubuntu’s. Ubuntu’s, like Debian, simply uses the vanilla grub-install script which comes with the grub package. openSUSE runs a program looking at the disk layout, the partition table, the contents of the MBR and boot sectors, checks for quirks that certain hardware have - and then makes a recommendation. openSUSE’s module provides many boot parameters through the gui that require hand-editing in Ubuntu, and the module performs functions (such as installing generic boot code to the MBR or recovering previous boot code) not available in Ubuntu at all.