Resigned To Video Problems

English Soapbox
#1

I had to revert to Opensuse 10.3 because I couldn’t get the Nvidia drivers to work under 11.1. I know that I probably could have, but I finally got tired of fooling with it. Easier just to pull out the older DVD and reinstall.

Of course, getting it work under 10.3 wasn’t painless. The driver in the NVidia repository won’t work, so I have to download NVidia’s driver and install/build it myself. Then run “nvidia-xconfig.” Then (carefully) run Sax. Finally, once I get into the KDE desktop, I run “nvidia-settings” to get what I really want.

But what makes me REALLY happy is that … once again! … the Opensuse updater installed a new kernel, and all of that was undone. I rebooted and got one (1) free black screen instead of my nice KDE desktop.

In some other threads, most notably this one:

What is holding back Linux from breaking trough - openSUSE Forums

… there’s been a lot of discussion about how to increase Linux’ adoption rate. I can tell you this: I’m no dummy, and I can work through most problems. If nothing else, I’ll just bulldog them until I figure them out. Plus, I’m a programmer who’s not afraid to tinker with source and to build from source, if need be, to get something working.

But the average user is none of the above. In fact, if the average user were to lose his/her video after a routine kernel update, they’d probably hurl the monitor out the window, smash the computer, and then run cursing into the woods.

What makes this so frustrating is that it doesn’t need to be this way.

#2

Yeah … this was mostly a consequence of the decision starting with openSUSE-10.1 not to include proprietary drivers with openSUSE. Many users jumped up and down and complained about the package management hiccups with 10.1, but IMHO the most significant aspect of 10.1 was the philosophy change not to include proprietary drivers.

Until the openGL drivers are of sufficient functionality , this will continue to happen.

I can say that my PC’s (with both ATI and Nvidia chipsets) where I only use the openGL driver (with hardware that is less than state of the art) I never have this problem with openGL drivers. That is likely the solution for the average user, which means less than stellar graphic performance. Users who want the best graphic performance will have to learn how to grapple with the video problems you describe.

As toward fixing this problem, it is up the the openSUSE community, … it its up to users like you (and one’s like me, but more motivated toward superior graphic behaviour) to help automate this functionality. Its definitely NOT Novell’s policy to provide proprietary software and so I doubt that you will see anything directly coming from Novell (although they may be contributing toward openGL development via some indirect means).

#3

Me, is an average JOE. No programming, etc. Only thing know is to turn on and off my pc. I had use ati, nvidia and intel graphic cards, luckily I made them all work with opensuse. I never whined about resigning or threatened jumping to other distro after some debacle for I knew that it was my decision to go on thinkering with linux, therefore nobody is to blame for anything but me because I decided it for myself.:yawn:

#4

Just a note ATI is on the repository list for opensuse 11.1 I just got through downloading the drivers and after uninstalling my drivers from amd and doing a aticonfig --initial to get the repo driver up everything is ok. Oh a simple ctl alt backspace twice is sufficient a reboot is not necessary unless you want to

#5

If you even know your vendor’s name, you’re not average. Being a programmer isn’t the only thing that elevates one above the term “average.”

The average user can’t tell you if they have an NVidia, ATI, or MagicGraphicThingie in their PC.

Years ago, when I was pushing Mandrake, the common approach back then was to tell the user to go into Windows System and write down the names of their hardware. Just getting them to find the Device Manager was a trick. You had to provide plenty of graphics that showed them precisely where to click, and what to look for.

No, my friend, you are anything but “average.” Believe me. :slight_smile:

#6

I believe you. But me have talents in other field which you won’t probably reach 30 percent:cool: Believe me.

#7

Well, that’s harsh on the hypothetical average user, but there are people who over-react for sure.

What puzzles me is the desire to spread Linux to people like that. What do they contribute? Nothing but stress. What do they take? Hours and hours of your time with never a word of thanks.

I cheer every time one of them flounces back to Windows, and I’m secretly relieved when they depart openSUSE in a huff to annoy the good people who use another distro - because at least they aren’t whining about my distro of choice.

I’ve been accused of being a typical Linux elitist when taking this position, but that’s not the case at all. I’m open to help anyone I can who has an open mind and a willingness to learn instead of expecting the world to be handed to them on a plate.

#8

I had to revert to Opensuse 10.3 because I couldn’t get the Nvidia drivers to work under 11.1. I know that I probably could have, but I finally got tired of fooling with it. Easier just to pull out the older DVD and reinstall.

Why 10.3? Did you have the same problem under 11.0? \

I don’t think I could ever go back to the 10.x series. 11.0 was such a milestone. I am unfortunately stuck with 10.3 on one of my linode vms and its such a pain waiting 10 minutes for the Yast repos to refresh.

#9

Yep. The problem isn’t necessarily with Suse, save perhaps for the wrong driver being specified in the repository. I downloaded the correct driver (after a couple of misfires) from NVidia and installed it myself. Wouldn’t work under 11.0 or 11.1

Like I said, I could probably make it work if I had the time or interest.

#10

To make sure you understood me, my intent was to say, “if you can even name your video hardware’s vendor, you are ABOVE average.” :slight_smile:

#11

> Until the openGL drivers are of sufficient functionality , this will
> continue to happen.

Read never…as card manufacturers will continue to enhance and modify their
chipsets. Open source drivers will always lag. Heck the proprietary
drivers often lag their hardware refreshes. The best thing to do would be
to simplify the process for getting and installing the proprietary drivers
and many options to do this have been discussed. Hopefully, the OS crew
will at least attempt some of those options.

#12

> To make sure you understood me, my intent was to say, “if you can even
> name your video hardware’s vendor, you are ABOVE average.” :slight_smile:

I wholly agree with that statement. True story, I had a user insert quarters
in a slot in the case…called the help desk and said she had inserted 50
cents in the computer and it still would not come on. I wouldn’t have
believed her but after hours I cracked the case open and found two
quarters.

#13

Did you keep them? :slight_smile:

#14

No, binary video drivers held back suspend, and have a track record of causing stability problems in the kernel, that noone could debug. There’s also the problem of the manufacturer losing interest in supporting their old cards. Furthermore, they’re not distributable with the Linux kernel.

Most users do not need the “perfect” driver, just one that’s good enough, and benchmarks under Windows show how hyped driver improvements are, when they offer some small framerate increase like 50.5, to 51.2 fps.

In some cases like the Nvidia chipset (non graphic with NIC forcedeth),the binary drivers have been superceded by higher quality FOSS drivers, that eventually Nvidia themselves have switched to supporting,thanks to customer pressure. They seem to have been able to overcome their intial objections, and their chipsets are well supported.

OpenGL is a 3D application API, a programming ‘standard’; naturally MS wished to control their own proprietary standard so developed DirectX, a closed interface they aggressively developed to encourage adoption by games programmers. You need your driver to support OpenGL well, if you run OpenGL programs, that’s true under Linux and Windows. Stated because there seems to be some confusion in some of the comments in this thread.

There are not technical reasons for FOSS drivers to lag, video hardware companies can like Intel develop drivers for the chips in an open manner. It is commercial and legalistic issues like DRM which make it impossible for AMD/ATI for example to FOSS their window’s driver. Similarly Nvidia claim use of licensed IP, which also prevents a change.

What determines what is more advanced, is simply engineering investement, and that investment follows the market. FOSS works, because it conserves the contributions of many, who gain from an established code base.

If you’re interested in understanding what’s being done, and why we are where we are, then LWN is the best source of information.

LCA: Updates on the X Window System [LWN.net]
http://lwn.net/Articles/316274/ ( currently subscriber only content )
LCA xorg packard site:lwn.net - Google Search

If we want better video drivers and less issue, then we MUST support manufactureres like Intel & AMD/ATI who are developing FOSS drivers, and supplying documentation to enable the process without reverse engineering.

Proprietary closed source companies should support their own customers, and openSUSE should not feel obligated to spend resources on ameliorating the consequences of these companies commercial decisions, which undermine the whole purpose of the FOSS movement.

#15

There’s actually a Google Video talk on dealing with “Poisonous People” in your open source project by the SVN guys. You might have a wry grin like I had, when watching it.

The naive user’s I know, just don’t notice that they don’t have the manufacturers proprietary driver, and effects and the famous rotating cube would confuse them.

There’s probably a lot of the “Zeal of the Recent Convert” to many of the forum threads. When you switch, you are (rightly) aware that there’s a benefit if very many others switch to, as market share is important.

We have 1 Click install, and the Kernel Module concept, for the repositories. A VESA driver works acceptably for installation purposes, and the 3D games, and Desktop Bling aren’t critical system features.

To me there’s an element of “painting the bike shed” in this issue. I’ve seen Nvidia binary driver issues for 8 years, and all sorts of support methods tried. They haven’t been really satisfactory, simply because the proprietary binary model is broken, when shipping with the GPL v2 kernel.

#16

Blah, blah …
…which undermine the whole purpose of the FOSS movement.

First, I would kindly appreciate if you will stop telling me and all the other people, what hardware and software they have to use. Thanks. As that is probably not “the whole purpose of the FOSS movement”.

Second, matter-of-factly, are Nvidia cards with their binary drivers the one and only graphics “solution”, that does actually deliver functionality and performance. They recently proved again commitment to actively develop their driver software and they deliver improvements. This did include rewriting and circumventing a solid block out of X.orgs “accelleration architecture”. So, other drivers are YEARS back, and there is little hope for a performance graphics alternative. Maybe reality collides here with your ideologically biased view of the world.

BTW., AMD’s move of dumping some specs to the public in order to get rid of the maintenance of their ****ty fglrx drivers is not exactly a heroic move, its not even generous.

#17

You can use whatever software you want, but you should accept the consequences. Explain, why the costs of certain decisions should be born by volunteer projects and other companies.

People can go to Nvidia, click in the boxes and follow that, if that process is a PITA, it’s Nvidia’s problem.

There’s no reason, why video can’t work as well as networking, and other hardware, and complex software. It’s all about engineering effort, which requires investment which follows the money of purchasing decisions.