Possible improvements to openSUSE

English Soapbox
#1

Hello openSUSE users and developers

I know this piece is really long, but I would appreciate you reading it thorougly.

Over the past few weeks I have been going back and forth between Debian and openSUSE as my production laptop. I have used other distributions in the past (Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, openSUSE 12.1-13.1), but felt like Debian and openSUSE fits my needs and visions for Linux the best. Although I really like both, I do feel like I want my system to be openSUSE. I do believe that openSUSE is a very much underrated operating system and generally doesn’t get the attention it deserves from the public users and reviewers. The developers really put in a lot of effort to write quality software for the benefit of everyone such as YaST, the Open Build Service (OBS) and SUSE Studio. Unfortunately, SUSE does not seem to be such a great deal anymore and people jumped on the Ubuntu/Linux Mint wagon. This made me think of ways in which we can improve openSUSE to improve its stance in the Linux world and attract more users. I am not sure if openSUSE/SUSE is open to this kind of feedback, but I think it is worth it to try bring fresh ideas to the ecosystem. I aim the following concepts at both general users to hear their feelings about the possible improvements, as well as developers of openSUSE to hear if they think these ideas are viable and doable within the SUSE framework.

  1. Release cycle: openSUSE releases are supported for 18 months and are released every 9 months or so. The Evergreen project provides updates for 3 years, which is quite good. I do think however that the cycle can be changed to benefit both home/office users as well as servers. I propose that openSUSE move away from releasing every few months. I have heard that the new rolling Factory is very stable. If this is stable enough for everyday home use, why not keep it rolling? Discrete releases should become a form of long term support (LTS) release, snapshotted and stabilised from Factory, which should be officially supported for at least 3+ years with about a 6-month overlap of support between LTS releases. I do realise that this might go against the SLES version, but people that needs commercial (and sue-able) support, would still pay for SLES. Everyday desktop machines should install Factory, server or production machines should use the LTS, and critical machines would install SLES. I think this will bring a new dimension to openSUSE, and increase support from OEMs for drivers, service vendors such as system76 and Digital Ocean, and increase deployment at universities and small businesses so that openSUSE becomes a distribution of choice in all sectors. The wiki is good, and just needs to be updated for the two releases if there is a difference.

  2. Network installer: The openSUSE network installer is currently not that well implemented in my opinion when compared to the Debian one. Upon startup, it takes quite long as it has to connect and download the install environment from the internet. On a slow connection, this can become really painful and might give the impression that the system froze. I would suggest putting the whole install environment on the disk and only obtain the packages to be installed from the online repositories. Also, a rescue mode is a good idea, which just opens a shell and mounts the install target somewhere so that rescue operations or just access to the filesystem can be acchieved, similar to Debian which mounts the system on /target.

  3. Non-free software during install: I have suggested this in the past, but never got around to formally making a request. During installation, a checkbox could be provided to add the Packman repository and immediately install some codecs. This would give openSUSE a better out-of-the-box experience, without directly including the packages and should not have legal repurcussions that I am aware of. This is to combat negative reviews as eveyone compares distros to Linux Mint who includes this, although I do not know how they get around the legal issues.

  4. GUI bug reporting: A graphical bug reporting tool could be a good idea. This will encourage users to report bugs. For some, going to a website to report bugs feels like too much effort. I am willing to contribute to such an application.

  5. Post-install tweaks: Many people complain that things like codecs are hard to install. Although they can do a one-click install, many people do not know about this or where to search. I think a tool can be coded to help with this, similar to Fedy for Fedora. This could be run from the openSUSE popup on first system launch. I have a Qt5-based concept application for this (amd64), and am willing to contribute to such an application.

  6. Front-end to packages.opensuse.org: It would be great if a frontend to the openSUSE software service can be included in YaST. It is wonderful that openSUSE has almost all software available in some repository, but again, many people do not know about this, and it seems there is a disconnect between the tools. A front-end could work similarly to what packer does in Arch Linux when searching the AUR. Also, a problem with software.opensuse.org is that many packages, for example Eclipse, have many possible repositories to choose from. The versions are actually different, in that some if for Java development and others for C/C++, but this can not be seen beforehand. Steam aswell, why have many repositories for it? This can be very confusing, and a unified approach is needed to only have one repo/maintainer per package and maybe centralise the hosting.

  7. YaST: YaST remains an awesome, awesome tool, especially due to its ncurses interface to manage software, firewall, virtualisation, etc… However, many people complain that upon first run of the software installer, the update size is massive. This is because they do not know that all previous “softer” dependencies are now also satisfied. I think this option should also be set during install time with a checkbox, as it is somewhat hidden in YaST.

  8. Zypper: I really like the zypper package manager, but it would be great if it could have an autocomplete function like aptitude. Unless it already has something and I just don’t know how to activate it.

  9. Sysconfig: Although this method of management is great, it does differ from other distributions in that something like “systemctl restart kdm.service” is not available as in other distributions. One needs to know that openSUSE handles it differently in “systemctl restart displaymanager.service”. Is there a specific reason why openSUSE does not conform to the standard in other distributions regarding this?

10 . Forums: The forum page too busy. I know that openSUSE wants international support, but this creates a messy forum. Are all those threads like the different language threads even used regularly? In my opinion, it would be better to have it all in English and reduce the clutter. Also I can’t find a edit thread title option, which is useful to mark something as [SOLVED]. The openSUSE community is intelligent and friendly, and an improved forum would make community support even better.

  1. Command line Wi-Fi: Arch linux has a project netctl, which is great for Wi-Fi connectivity settings in the command line without the need to edit text configurations. Something similar to this would be great for SUSE too, expecially for devices without an ethernet port. Maybe that can be packaged for openSUSE and included by default too?

  2. Public views: openSUSE needs to somehow squash the old Microsoft deal as this has nothing to do with the current state of openSUSE. People should now learn that openSUSE only aims to be compatible, not be part of Microsoft. People should also be discouraged to review release candidate versions, such as what the Linux Action Show for 13.2. This puts openSUSE in a bad light. Only full reviews after proper testing should done, and testing in virtual machines should be discouraged.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that openSUSE is bad, in fact it remains the distro I recommend to others, especially new users. I just want openSUSE to be the best distro it can be and become the distribution of choice by as many people and companies as possible. After using Linux for about 5 years I feel that I want to start contributing, and I feel like contributing to a remarkable project such as openSUSE.

Please share your thoughts and opinions with me, especially if you are an openSUSE developer. Feel free to correct me if I stated anything that is incorrect.

#2

Hi there, and welcome!

As many people have told me - rolling is never stable enough. Plus, as I see it, regular releases make it easier for the marketing team to create some buzz and fuss upon release.

  1. Network installer:/…/

I don’t know enough on the subject to comment.

  1. Non-free software during install: /…/

I think you can do that since the 13.2 installer - enable community repos, if i’m not mistaken. + What projects should aim at is to let people know why you can’t include that software by default, otherwise it defeats the purpose of pedagogic work, and just becomes free as in beer :slight_smile:

  1. GUI bug reporting: /…/

Maybe, but i like the site reporting since it’s been revamped :slight_smile: We now have our own bugzilla at bugzilla.opensuse.org.

  1. Post-install tweaks: /…/

As things are going, there should be a new revamped traditional news site for openSUSE soon. It should make this kind of info more accessible.

  1. Front-end to packages.opensuse.org:/…/

Like an OBS search tool? Maybe, dunno. The problems i think would occur with obs having gazzillion repos.

  1. YaST:/…/

OK.

  1. Zypper: /…/

OK

  1. Sysconfig: /…/

Will wait for someone versed in this problem to respond.

10 . Forums: /…/

Agree somewhat. Maybe the other languages subforums could be hidden under a subforum ’ Other languages’. Just to make it less clunky to begin with. However, i’ve bookmarked the English forums, so i go here directly.

  1. Command line Wi-Fi: /…/

Don’t know, wait for someone else.

  1. Public views: /…/

It has been said to me the MS deal is a non-issue for a while now. As for the rest, it’s up to the journalists to have ‘journalistic integrity’ and providing the best possible environment for reviews.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that openSUSE is bad, in fact it remains the distro I recommend to others, especially new users. I just want openSUSE to be the best distro it can be and become the distribution of choice by as many people and companies as possible. After using Linux for about 5 years I feel that I want to start contributing, and I feel like contributing to a remarkable project such as openSUSE.

Please share your thoughts and opinions with me, especially if you are an openSUSE developer. Feel free to correct me if I stated anything that is incorrect.

Nice points and nice of you to take the time to be thorough. However, developers rarely visit the forums, so my suggestion is (especially because you volunteered to do some work on your ideas) to join the appropriate mailing lists: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_lists

Anyone willing to contribute is accepted warmly, as you’ll see for yourself if you decide to take those steps. I encourage you to do so, as I’ve been very happy with the super-nice and welcoming community openSUSE sports. No place like the green side :wink:

Kind regards!

#3

Agreed :slight_smile:

I am not sure if openSUSE/SUSE is open to this kind of feedback, but I think it is worth it to try bring fresh ideas to the ecosystem.

Of course we are - but these forums aren’t typically the best place for this kind of feedback - most of openSUSE’s development discussion happens in our mailinglists, especially opensuse-factory. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_lists

  1. Release cycle: openSUSE releases are supported for 18 months and are released every 9 months or so.

Only partially correct. Release lifespans are a function of the release schedule, not an arbitrary chosen length.
openSUSE releases are supported for ‘2 releases + 2 months’. So, in the past, when we were releasing every 8 months, that meant 18 months (8 months + 8 months + 2 months)

After the decision to take 12 months for 13.2, there is an ongoing discussion regarding what the release schedule will be for 13.3 and 14.1. So at this time the best I can say is that openSUSE 13.2 will be supported for ‘at least’ 18 months and openSUSE 13.1 for at least 22 months (12+8+2), but the current trend of the discussion seems pushing for longer release cycles, and that’ll automatically lead to longer support lifetimes for recent releases.

The Evergreen project provides updates for 3 years, which is quite good. I do think however that the cycle can be changed to benefit both home/office users as well as servers. I propose that openSUSE move away from releasing every few months. I have heard that the new rolling Factory is very stable. If this is stable enough for everyday home use, why not keep it rolling?

‘Rolling Factory’ as you described it is now called Tumbleweed. It’s rolling, it’s stable, it’s what I use for pretty much everything.

https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed

We did our best to make quite a song and dance about it, press releases and everything… https://news.opensuse.org/2014/10/24/tumbleweed-factory-rolling-releases-to-merge/

Discrete releases should become a form of long term support (LTS) release, snapshotted and stabilised from Factory, which should be officially supported for at least 3+ years with about a 6-month overlap of support between LTS releases. I do realise that this might go against the SLES version, but people that needs commercial (and sue-able) support, would still pay for SLES. Everyday desktop machines should install Factory, server or production machines should use the LTS, and critical machines would install SLES. I think this will bring a new dimension to openSUSE, and increase support from OEMs for drivers, service vendors such as system76 and Digital Ocean, and increase deployment at universities and small businesses so that openSUSE becomes a distribution of choice in all sectors. The wiki is good, and just needs to be updated for the two releases if there is a difference.

You’re not the first person to suggest something like this. I do see some merit in the idea. The real challenge is twofold

From an openSUSE perspective, producing a distribution which is enticing and interesting for people to work on and contribute to - ‘old stuff’ doesn’t necessarily have the same appeal as ‘new stuff’

From a SUSE perspective, they’re not going to be keen to sponsor a project which directly attacks a source of their revenue. I think there is room for compromise and collaboration in this area, but it’s one of the few areas where openSUSE overlaps the SUSE Linux Enterprise business so that needs to be attacked from both the general ‘community’ perspective but also a SUSE ‘business’ perspective.

  1. Network installer: The openSUSE network installer is currently not that well implemented in my opinion when compared to the Debian one. Upon startup, it takes quite long as it has to connect and download the install environment from the internet. On a slow connection, this can become really painful and might give the impression that the system froze. I would suggest putting the whole install environment on the disk and only obtain the packages to be installed from the online repositories. Also, a rescue mode is a good idea, which just opens a shell and mounts the install target somewhere so that rescue operations or just access to the filesystem can be acchieved, similar to Debian which mounts the system on /target.

Interesting point of view - the Network installer IMHO should download as much as it can from the central servers, and not rely on too much data on the original network ISO (it really should be a bootstrap)

But I suppose someone could look into making it more ‘informative’ about what it’s doing - can you open a bug to that effect?

  1. Non-free software during install: I have suggested this in the past, but never got around to formally making a request. During installation, a checkbox could be provided to add the Packman repository and immediately install some codecs. This would give openSUSE a better out-of-the-box experience, without directly including the packages and should not have legal repurcussions that I am aware of. This is to combat negative reviews as eveyone compares distros to Linux Mint who includes this, although I do not know how they get around the legal issues.

This is a recurring one - The biggest difference we have in this area compared to lets say Mint or Ubuntu is we have lawyers who have a different interpretation on such things as them. And it’s their job to stop us getting sued, so I think we’re on the right track to keep on taking their advice.

But, as laws and legal interpretations change, I intend to bring this up next time I have a chat with our legal experts, I’ll see what I can do

  1. GUI bug reporting: A graphical bug reporting tool could be a good idea. This will encourage users to report bugs. For some, going to a website to report bugs feels like too much effort. I am willing to contribute to such an application.

I really like how Libreoffice has a ‘Bug Submission Assistant’ until it got broken https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/bug/

I wouldn’t mind if openSUSE had something similar

In the meantime, we do have our ‘streamlined’ bug submission forms linked on our wiki:

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports

  1. Post-install tweaks: Many people complain that things like codecs are hard to install. Although they can do a one-click install, many people do not know about this or where to search. I think a tool can be coded to help with this, similar to Fedy for Fedora. This could be run from the openSUSE popup on first system launch. I have a Qt5-based concept application for this (amd64), and am willing to contribute to such an application.

Again, see answer to Suggestion 3. The biggest concern here is not crossing the line into a legal grey area with the distribution of patented software.

  1. Front-end to packages.opensuse.org: It would be great if a frontend to the openSUSE software service can be included in YaST. It is wonderful that openSUSE has almost all software available in some repository, but again, many people do not know about this, and it seems there is a disconnect between the tools. A front-end could work similarly to what packer does in Arch Linux when searching the AUR. Also, a problem with software.opensuse.org is that many packages, for example Eclipse, have many possible repositories to choose from. The versions are actually different, in that some if for Java development and others for C/C++, but this can not be seen beforehand. Steam aswell, why have many repositories for it? This can be very confusing, and a unified approach is needed to only have one repo/maintainer per package and maybe centralise the hosting.

Good idea. I think you could contribute or find Ruby coders to contribute a YaST module for the ‘front end’ side of this.

Regarding the ‘too many possible repositories’ concern - I’m sure theres room for discussion and code to better filter/display repositories and their intended roles (Home, Development, Actual use by users, etc). This might be a good discussion to have on the opensuse-buildservice mailinglist.

  1. YaST: YaST remains an awesome, awesome tool, especially due to its ncurses interface to manage software, firewall, virtualisation, etc… However, many people complain that upon first run of the software installer, the update size is massive. This is because they do not know that all previous “softer” dependencies are now also satisfied. I think this option should also be set during install time with a checkbox, as it is somewhat hidden in YaST.

I think this only happens if you’re doing a network install… I certainly don’t see a ‘massive’ update on my first YaST run on any of my installs. Either way, a better, more visible way of handling ‘recommends’ is a good idea - contribute it, or open a bug :slight_smile:

  1. Zypper: I really like the zypper package manager, but it would be great if it could have an autocomplete function like aptitude. Unless it already has something and I just don’t know how to activate it.

Autocomplete works fine in zsh (which is my personal choice for any user-interactive shell)… I’m sure someone could write something for bash…

  1. Sysconfig: Although this method of management is great, it does differ from other distributions in that something like “systemctl restart kdm.service” is not available as in other distributions. One needs to know that openSUSE handles it differently in “systemctl restart displaymanager.service”. Is there a specific reason why openSUSE does not conform to the standard in other distributions regarding this?

We support more DM’s and DE’s at the same time than any other distro. I’m not saying the current solution is perfect, but that’s the ‘specific reason’ I can think of for the current implementation. If you want to change it, you’ll need to come up with a model that can handle situations like KDM launching GNOME, GDM launching KDE, XDM launching XFCE and GNOME and KDE, lightDM doing something, blah blah…

10 . Forums: The forum page too busy. I know that openSUSE wants international support, but this creates a messy forum. Are all those threads like the different language threads even used regularly? In my opinion, it would be better to have it all in English and reduce the clutter. Also I can’t find a edit thread title option, which is useful to mark something as [SOLVED]. The openSUSE community is intelligent and friendly, and an improved forum would make community support even better.

No comment, I’ll leave that to someone who spends more time on the forums :slight_smile:

  1. Command line Wi-Fi: Arch linux has a project netctl, which is great for Wi-Fi connectivity settings in the command line without the need to edit text configurations. Something similar to this would be great for SUSE too, expecially for devices without an ethernet port. Maybe that can be packaged for openSUSE and included by default too?

What’s wrong with wicked or nm-cli?

  1. Public views: openSUSE needs to somehow squash the old Microsoft deal as this has nothing to do with the current state of openSUSE. People should now learn that openSUSE only aims to be compatible, not be part of Microsoft. People should also be discouraged to review release candidate versions, such as what the Linux Action Show for 13.2. This puts openSUSE in a bad light. Only full reviews after proper testing should done, and testing in virtual machines should be discouraged.

The SUSE and Microsoft deal was a long time ago, and while it’s been a wonderful and complicated source of FUD for a long time, if people think that Microsoft are pulling any strings or somehow ‘tainting’ the work of the openSUSE community, well, I guess I have no choice but to compliment them on their tin-foil hats and get back to work.

End of the day, openSUSE is an independent FOSS community sponsored/patroned by SUSE (not ‘run-by’). We have our own Board, our own way of organizing things, and while of course SUSE, Microsoft, RedHat, and other companies contribute to openSUSE directly and indirectly, it’s the community as a whole, not any single corporation, that decides the direction and runs things.

If people don’t realize that yet, all we can do is keep on doing our best to spread that message.

Regarding release reviews, that’s good feedback and I feel somewhat similar - but the Press love to get reviews out before/during a release. There is a balance to be struck. I do think this is an area I can certainly influence though and I’ll be recommending some additional advice, such as not testing in Virtual Machines, into any future press kits.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that openSUSE is bad, in fact it remains the distro I recommend to others, especially new users. I just want openSUSE to be the best distro it can be and become the distribution of choice by as many people and companies as possible. After using Linux for about 5 years I feel that I want to start contributing, and I feel like contributing to a remarkable project such as openSUSE.

Please share your thoughts and opinions with me, especially if you are an openSUSE developer. Feel free to correct me if I stated anything that is incorrect.

I don’t get you wrong. Thank you for this post.

Good, honest, constructive feedback like this is some of the best contributions openSUSE can get.

Hopefully my responses help clear up a few things, give you some ideas for next steps, and possibly encourage more discussion.

Have a lot of fun!

Richard Brown
openSUSE Chairman

#4

On 2014-12-29 13:06, cornelusleroux wrote:
>
> Hello openSUSE users and developers

The developer community does not read the forum. You have to go to
certain mail lists.

> 1. Release cycle: openSUSE releases are supported for 18 months and are

Asking/talking here will do nothing.

Just a comment: I would not install factory or any rolling distribution
on a machine I /use/. Those things are for people that enjoy the edge,
and have the time to do so.

> 3. Non-free software during install: I have suggested this in the past,
…
> 5. Post-install tweaks: Many people complain that things like codecs
> are hard to install. Although they can do a one-click install, many
…
> concept application for this (amd64), and am willing to contribute to
> such an application.

If you know openSUSE, you know already that the issue is legal, not
applications or tools or methods. You can only implement things that the
legal team (lawyers) approve.

So if you have a proposal, make a proposal that does consider the legal
issues. Not ignore the issues, because then your proposal will be
ignored directly (except by people chatting), but design something that
can be legally accepted.

> 4. GUI bug reporting: A graphical bug reporting tool could be a good
> idea. This will encourage users to report bugs. For some, going to a
> website to report bugs feels like too much effort. I am willing to
> contribute to such an application.

Well, there is a bugzilla command, I learned recently. Have a look at
it, and find out if you can design a full GUI application that
interfaces with the existing bugzilla web system, and make a commitment
to maintain it for many years. Get a community to support that
application. Not trivial… but unless you do that, it will not be accepted.

> 10 . Forums: The forum page too busy. I know that openSUSE wants
> international support, but this creates a messy forum. Are all those
> threads like the different language threads even used regularly? In my
> opinion, it would be better to have it all in English and reduce the
> clutter.

Never. Having so many languages is intentional. How they are organized
is a different thing.

However, there is a subforum for forum suggestions, you’d better go there.

> 11. Command line Wi-Fi: Arch linux has a project netctl, which is great

We have wicked.

> 12. Public views: openSUSE needs to somehow squash the old Microsoft
> deal

openSUSE has not any deal with Microsoft. You are confusing us with SUSE.

And even then, you are confusing what the deal is about.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)

#5

Different people have different needs.

Yes, Tumbleweed (the rolling release) seems to be doing well. I’m using it on one test system but not on my main desktop.

Why not on my main desktop? Because a rolling release is disruptive. It requires more frequent updates, and updating is disruptive. I’m not doing anything that absolutely has to be at the very latest version. So installing a new release once a year or after ten months is plenty good enough.

As before, I will probably switch my desktop to the rolling release a month or two before the next major release. That allows me to participate in the more thorough testing needed at that time.

Other reasons people have: I happen to have a reasonably fat Internet pipe. But some folk have a small pipe and big fees if they go over their ISP quota. For such folk, a rolling release would be a serious burden.

Oh, and don’t forget the glitches. I updated my Tumbleweed system yesterday, and it didn’t boot. I filed a bug report with a suggested fix at Bug 911319 Cannot boot kernel 3.18.1 using an encrypted LVM (unable to enter key). Some people prefer to avoid the disruption of such glitches.

#6

These points could be very valuable for the simple user for his convenience. The power user can work and manage things as it is right now.

#7

On 2014-12-29 14:26, RBrownSUSE wrote:

>> 7. YaST: YaST remains an awesome, awesome tool, especially due to its
>> ncurses interface to manage software, firewall, virtualisation, etc…
>> However, many people complain that upon first run of the software
>> installer, the update size is massive. This is because they do not know
>> that all previous “softer” dependencies are now also satisfied. I
>> think this option should also be set during install time with a
>> checkbox, as it is somewhat hidden in YaST.
>>
>
> I think this only happens if you’re doing a network install… I
> certainly don’t see a ‘massive’ update on my first YaST run on any of my
> installs. Either way, a better, more visible way of handling
> ‘recommends’ is a good idea - contribute it, or open a bug :slight_smile:

It happens when you install one of the smallish live systems instead of
the full dvd. Also it happens if you install midterm - say, if you
install 13.1 now.

Also, during the RC and feature freeze phase many bugs are found, but
the correction is done via update on the next month. So a month after
the release there is a bunch of updates to download.

As the DVDs are never updated (for good reasons), we have to live with
large updates. Hopefully, they will be deltas, not full rpms.

> certainly influence though and I’ll be recommending some additional
> advice, such as not testing in Virtual Machines, into any future press
> kits.

Or convince devs to take virtual machines as design goal.

Me, I do most of my testing on virtual setups, because I don’t have a
machine to spare for testing, and don’t want to disrupt my daily work
that much. Sometimes bugzilla asignees dislike seeing that I did the
test on a virtual machine, and insist on real hardware - which has the
same bug, when tested.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)

#8

openQA is doing a huge amount to encourage that mindset, but the reality is that the first thing any developer is going to want to rule out is a ‘local’ issue

So someone reporting a bug on ‘real hardware’ is likely to get a first question of “can you reproduce this in a VM?”
and someone reporting a bug in a VM is likely to get a first question of “can you reproduce this on real hardware?”

As soon as they can blame the platform instead of their software, it becomes ERRNOTMYPROBLEM to them and they get to reassign the bug to the appropriate virtualisation/kernel developer

Such is life…a developers first instinct is to try and avoid bugs

#9

On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 13:26:07 +0000, RBrownSUSE wrote:

>> 10 . Forums: The forum page too busy. I know that openSUSE wants
>> international support, but this creates a messy forum. Are all those
>> threads like the different language threads even used regularly?

Yes.

>> In my
>> opinion, it would be better to have it all in English and reduce the
>> clutter.

Appreciate the input, but we prefer to allow people to post their
questions in their native language when we know there are people who can
also answer in those languages. The forums for individual languages are
ones that were specifically asked for by people who volunteered to step
up and moderate them.

>> Also I can’t find a edit thread title option, which is useful
>> to mark something as [SOLVED].

This is a topic that comes up periodically. We view marking threads as
“solved” as much less useful than most people, and often can be
misleading to someone who believes they have a problem similar to what
was solved.

We prefer to have users think carefully about the solution they’re
looking at and decide whether or not it really applies to their situation

  • and to ask follow-up questions in the thread if they have any doubts
    about it. Threads marked solved tend to stop the thinking process, and
    users can get themselves into more trouble by not thinking about the
    issue or asking further questions.

>> The openSUSE community is intelligent
>> and friendly, and an improved forum would make community support even
>> better.

We do always look for ways to improve the forum experience - we also have
to weigh changes against the disruption they would create (such as
restructuring the forums so they look - to some people - less “messy” :wink:
). But we have a forum that is specifically dedicated to forum feedback,
and would encourage you to both read the sticky post there and, after
doing that and considering our approach, provide feedback there. :slight_smile:

>>
>>
> No comment, I’ll leave that to someone who spends more time on the
> forums :slight_smile:

Done. :slight_smile:

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#10

Thanks to all the posters that took the time to read and respond. Since there was so many, I’ll group my reply by topic again.

@holden87, @robin_listas: Rolling has to be REALLY stable to make it a casual home user’s machine. I haven’t tried Tumbleweed yet, so I rely on others to tell me how stable it is, which I have heard it is. Regarding the buzz, it is also true that regular releases generate hype. However, fewer releases can also increase the hype as everyone wants to see what a big distro changed. I think that the once every 2 year Debian release generates more hype than the every 6 month Fedora release. This is however a point of debate for those who have the numbers, but looking at something like Google Trends, one can clearly see the spikes around release times, so I agree on that.
@RBrownSUSE: Thanks for pointing it out, although I am aware of this. I just used the intended release cycle, not counting delays. I also mentioned the dilemma of creating a product that is competition for the mother company, although the SLES users should likely remain with SLES, and rather move CentOS machines to something like a openSUSE LTS.
@nrickert: Yes, constant updating is disruptive, although I tend to update my production machine weekly. That is why I proposed the a LTS repo for server or critical production use. Sorry to hear about the unbootable Tumbleweed, as this kind of problems throws this whole idea out the door.

@RBrownSUSE: My problem here is mainly that the install system also loads over the internet. For us in 3rd world, this makes thing more troublesome. The last time I tried a network install, my ISP throttled my connection for that type packets to 30kB/s, meaning the install disk loaded for over 2 hours before the install actually started. Including the installation system on the iso will make it bigger yes, but could also include more functionality such as a rescue shell.

@holden87: Yes, I think I saw you can now add community repos during install. However, I’m not sure if new openSUSE users would even know that they should add Packman.
@robin_listas: I fully agree that is has to happen within the legal frameworks. The checkbox during install I mentioned should auto-include Packman and the codec packs, but I’m not sure on the legality. The post-install application should be fine (think of something like EasyLife for Fedora). See the end for a link to a concept app.
@RBrownSUSE: If the lawyers day no, then I guess that’s it. I haven’t seen Ubuntu or Mint getting sued over this yet, but then again, something like Mint is of much smaller interest and not as sue-able as SUSE.
@gkanos, also on point 4: That is what I also thought! Concept app at the bottom of this post.

@holden87: Didn’t know about the revamping, will check it out. Thanks.
@robin_listas: Yes, I think something that uses the existing systems is a good idea. See the concept app at the bottom (although I didn’t base it on the current bugzilla framework.)

@holden87: Looking forward to seeing it! I do think it would still be great to have things like codecs be part of that first-run openSUSE info popup on KDE, maybe include a link there to the wiki with a 1-click installer? Again, I know how to install codecs, the openSUSE first-timer doesn’t. See concept app at the bottom of the post.

@holden87:This is why I mentioned a more unified approach to at least remove duplicate repos. Instead of creating something on the side, rather have for example a single repo for Eclipse, but different people can contribute different versions to one repo, maybe?
@RBrownSUSE: Good idea to add to the mailing list.

@RBrownSUSE, @robin_listas: This definately happens on the live disks, can’t remember it happening on the DVD, although I usually set the ignore recommends for previously installed packages first thing. Many people also don’t seem to see that many updates are deltas.

@RBrownSUSE: Interesting, I haven’t noticed it in zsh, will check it out.

@RBrownSUSE: If that is the ‘specific reason’, it is a good one that I didn’t think about. I do not really have a problem with it, I was mainly curious about why it is done this way. I also think having these settings in a singular place is nice.

@hendersj: If they were requested and used, then their addition there is a good thing. To be honest I didn’t check the amount of recent post as I wanted to because I’m currently limited in internet access, having to rely on my phone in thethering mode with expensive data costs. I apologize if I offended anyone on this topic. Regarding the [SOLVED] issue, what you say makes sense, although I’m more used to forums where they rather want you linking to an old thread in a new thread than to necro-bump an old one.

@robin_listas, RBrownSUSE: I have heard about wicked, not about nm-cli. The application I’m referring to in Arch has a very nice ncurses interface, which makes it friendly for new users setting up their system, especially from a minimal install and on Wi-Fi only. I will investigate those options though, thaks for pointing it out.

holden87: I do know that the MS thing is a non-issue now, but there are still some people that think so. For instance, distrowatch (yeah yeah terrible) this mentions this as a ‘con’ in openSUSE, http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major . Mentioning of this mostly happens on YouTube videos, which I think more people see than for instance a post on zdnet and does more to bring new users that a news post somewhere.
@robin_listas: Yes, I know, but people tend to group openSUSE and SUSE. I misspoke what I meant here, read the reply to holden87 above for clarity. Rather than “squash”, I should have said “shed” the IDEA that there are any ties with MS.
@RBrownSUSE: Same as my reply to robin_listas above. Although openSUSE performs well in a VM (likely the best of all), VM reviewing is bad in my opinion as this shows generally a slower system with often graphical glitches. RC reviewing is also silly, and discouragement of this would be nice.

Phew, I hope I got to everyone. If I didn’t specifically mention something anyone said, it is not that I didn’t read it, I most likely agree or merged the answer with some of the others. I did read every reply though. Thanks to everyone who took the time to read and reply.

About my concept apps, they can be downloaded from https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73723958/openSUSE-apps.zip , with both the binaries and source. It was compiled on Debian x86_64 with Qt5, so it wasn’t tested on openSUSE yet (again, internet connection so haven’t installed yet). I included the source for those who do not trust me and want to compile it themselves. Remeber that these are CONCEPT apps, so some output is faked to illustrate what should happen. Also don’t insult my programming, I’m still fairly new to Qt, and because these are concepts I didn’t fully comment it. :stuck_out_tongue: Feedback on the viability of this is welcome, and if I should continue these.

#11

On Tue, 30 Dec 2014 06:56:01 +0000, cornelusleroux wrote:

> @hendersj: If they were requested and used, then their addition there is
> a good thing.

We do keep an eye on that, and have in the past removed ones that weren’t
being used or monitored properly. Please trust that we know what we’re
doing. :slight_smile:

> To be honest I didn’t check the amount of recent post as I
> wanted to because I’m currently limited in internet access, having to
> rely on my phone in thethering mode with expensive data costs.

Understood, you’re not alone. You might consider using NNTP instead of
the web, since you’re using an expensive data plan - NNTP would be a far
more cost effective method of accessing these forums. See the FAQ for
more info.

> I
> apologize if I offended anyone on this topic. Regarding the [SOLVED]
> issue, what you say makes sense, although I’m more used to forums where
> they rather want you linking to an old thread in a new thread than to
> necro-bump an old one.

“Necro-bumping” isn’t something we encourage, either - unless the issue
is actually the same. Taking a vaguely similar issue from an ancient
release and saying “me too!” isn’t effective, either.

No offense taken - it’s just that we’ve been doing this for a while, and
for many of the things you raised, they’re not new suggestions. Take
some time to learn about the community, rather than making a splash by
saying “here’s what I would do differently” - getting involved is the way
to effect change in an OSS community.

You’re not the first to post a list like this, and you certainly won’t be
the last. :slight_smile:

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#12

@RBrownSUSE: My problem here is mainly that the install system also loads over the internet. For us in 3rd world, this makes thing more troublesome. The last time I tried a network install, my ISP throttled my connection for that type packets to 30kB/s, meaning the install disk loaded for over 2 hours before the install actually started. Including the installation system on the iso will make it bigger yes, but could also include more functionality such as a rescue shell.

The problem is, our installer changes. It gets patches, software updates, changes its logic (like the dramatic change between 13.1 and 13.2). If you had the installer on the ISO, you’d not get the benefits of those updates, and, most likely, you’d end up with some pretty bizarre installation behaviour - eg. If libzypp changes its dependency model, you’d get the wrong packages, and that would be bad. Very bad

Doing it the way we currently do it, ensures our users are using the latest, correct, version of the installer for their network install, in addition to the actual installation from the network

@RBrownSUSE: If the lawyers day no, then I guess that’s it. I haven’t seen Ubuntu or Mint getting sued over this yet, but then again, something like Mint is of much smaller interest and not as sue-able as SUSE.

Yeah… “but no-one has sued Ubuntu and Mint” is a line I’ve tried with them before, doesn’t work, normally gets replied with “…yet” :wink:

@RBrownSUSE, @robin_listas: This definately happens on the live disks, can’t remember it happening on the DVD, although I usually set the ignore recommends for previously installed packages first thing. Many people also don’t seem to see that many updates are deltas.

We stopped recommending the LiveCD’s for installation with the release of 13.2 for reasons like this (and others)
If you want to install openSUSE 13.2+, the recommended methods are DVD or Network.
Keeping the LiveCD’s focused on Live demonstrations (with installation as a secondary concern) is dramatically reducing the chance of anything breaking in any of the installers.

@robin_listas, RBrownSUSE: I have heard about wicked, not about nm-cli. The application I’m referring to in Arch has a very nice ncurses interface, which makes it friendly for new users setting up their system, especially from a minimal install and on Wi-Fi only. I will investigate those options though, thaks for pointing it out.

If you want a ncurses interface, then use YaST :slight_smile: “yast lan” to be precise, aka Network Configuration :slight_smile:

@RBrownSUSE: Same as my reply to robin_listas above. Although openSUSE performs well in a VM (likely the best of all), VM reviewing is bad in my opinion as this shows generally a slower system with often graphical glitches. RC reviewing is also silly, and discouragement of this would be nice.

I’ll see what I can do, but when it comes to VM testing, I’ll probably recommend physical hardware or virt-manager (KVM) - that way they’ll be using the same platform which openQA uses, and we can be reasonably confident that’s free of graphical glitches - if it was glitching, tests would fail, packages wouldn’t get submitted, so they wouldn’t be in there to ruin reviews :slight_smile:

#13

Just to be clear: The system was not unbootable. The new kernel was unbootable, but I could still boot the previous kernel.

#14

to my humble opinion, opensuse developer should be involved much more in the KDE development and to become a KDE only distribution. making KDE very stable will have a huge impact on opensuse first glance perception.
but to be honest, compared to ubuntu or ubuntu based distribution, the users of opensuse must be a little bit experienced in using linux.

#15

On 2014-12-30 15:46, rich1974 wrote:
>
> to my humble opinion, opensuse developer should be involved much more in
> the KDE development and to become a KDE only distribution.

No way.

Or I’ll vote for an XFCE only distribution, so you take care. >:-P

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)

#16

… I just keep a can of Raid beside each machine.:wink:

#17

IME it already is. Small glitches, yes, as with any DE.

And I find the multiple DE choices brilliant, we have users with different experiences due to their DE of choice, and this enriches the forum experience, besides giving any user an easier way to experiment with another DE in a familiar base environment (Yast, etc.)

For me openSUSE is as perfect as a distro can be, given my usage requirements.

#18

Indeed, an important reply.

Especially since much of it involves the Sue Yas Ay – er, I mean the USA.

#19

On Tue, 30 Dec 2014 11:46:01 +0000, RBrownSUSE wrote:

>> 3.
>> @RBrownSUSE: If the lawyers day no, then I guess that’s it. I haven’t
>> seen Ubuntu or Mint getting sued over this yet, but then again,
>> something like Mint is of much smaller interest and not as sue-able as
>> SUSE.
>>
> Yeah… “but no-one has sued Ubuntu and Mint” is a line I’ve tried with
> them before, doesn’t work, normally gets replied with “…yet” :wink:

And one could argue as well that neither Ubuntu nor Mint are at least
perceived as having deep pockets like SUSE or RedHat.

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#20

All very well, but if Ubuntu and Mint are not based in the US, under what process would legal action follow? Where is their commercial gain? Then there is the adverse publicity, globally for the giant corporation (e.g. MS) going after the minnow.