POLL: What would you like to see improved in openSUSE?

English Open Chat
1

Yes I know that it’s a very large and open ended question, but please give your honest thoughts about what could be improved in openSUSE to make the distro the best for you, and the best distro in the world?

Apparently there are now one or two people from the openSUSE “inner circle” lurking here, and I have been informed that instead of complaining (or in my opinion - pointing out the fact!) that the devs never listen to us end users, we need to take this opportunity to air our thoughts and concerns and give ideas for improvements.

So fire away…

2

I would like to start by reminding everyone about open fate, which is the desired feature tracking web site that everyone can participate in: https://features.opensuse.org/ Users will find their openSUSE forum username and password works there.

3

  1. Provide a proper, fully working USB stick version of the iso (I’ve tried many many times with several USB sticks and various laptops using both the dd/unetbootin/win32diskimager methods and still cannot get it to boot). I mean, CDs and DVDs are such an old, unreliable, awkward and slow technology that we really should be looking at the newer, better alternatives as more mainstream by now.

  2. More information/warnings when installing. This was actually DenverD’s suggestion in another thread, when installing give clear warning messages and explanations when partitioning to avoid problems. IE don’t take for granted that everyone knows about partitioning and what it does. Also give a clear warning that the default of installing grub to the root partition means that your install will NOT boot unless you change it to install grub on the MBR.

  3. Dump the “head in the sand” approach to non-oss drivers and codecs. Inform the user that there are non-oss versions of drivers available for their hardware (wireless/video etc’) and make it a simple YES/NO click to get them installed. Also when a user tries to play a video with an unsupported codec, pop up a message that explains that the default media player was purposely crippled by openSUSE in order to avoid being sued by whoever, and that they can simply click YES or NO in order to switch to the Packman version. Same when a codec is needed. This could be easily programmed never to never even appear when the chosen install region was USA or another restrictive country where such codecs are banned.

  4. Give us the DKMS system of kernel module auto-compilation/re-compilation. What this does is allows you to have things like Proprietary video/wireless/vbox drivers that are automatically re-compiled at boot time if there has been a kernel change. It is fantastic and makes life an absolute breeze for the end user, and also takes a load off the Forum people having to answer boring and repetitive questions about why the latest updates just hosed their system.

4

this has been suggested many times, but its “too easy” and from what I have read the legal assessment is this is tantamount to installing the codecs and hence Novell would have their posterior sued off for that.

I can NOT afford to pay Novell’s legal fees, and I assume neither can anyone else on this forum. And lets not forget that Novell is the corporation that stood up to SCO’s attempts to force all distributions to pay them money (and hence would have forced all distributions to charge money for Linux). If the view of Novell legal is they can not afford the legal costs here associated with codec law suits then IMHO it is NOT a risk worth taking.

Distributions that are not associated with a major corporation like Novell can “get away” with this approach (that you recommend) because they do not have a big fat juicy cash position/financial position that would make it a sufficient target for the lawyers to chase after. Novell IS a juicy target.

As much as it would be a “nice to see” , I don’t see this ever happening.

5

Excellent point oldCPU, and I’m really glad you mentioned that :).

As a reply to that I would have to ask why it is a separate site, hidden away by giving it an obscure name and not even advertising it on the main forum page and making a link to it?

Plus the fact that I have heard that most ideas/suggestions are either ignored, poo-pooed, or take months to be even looked at.

What was the point then of integrating all the openSUSE forums into one single forum in the first place if we now have important things like this (including bug reporting) hiding away on distant, unconnected, unadvertised sites?

Which then leads me to my number five suggestion…

  1. Integrate all these satellite sites into the Forum for ease of bug reporting and feature requesting/suggestions :D.

…g’donya oldCPU ;).

6

IMHO that is a very unfair biased and uninformed view.

Have you heard of the LXDE desktop ? Do you know what mechanism was used to kick off the approval process to have that added to openSUSE-11.3 ? Given the “poo-poo” comment, apparently you do not.

Who is going to implement the proposals ? Who is going to pay for the proposals ? Are you going to code them ? Do you expect me to code them ? Have you ever coded software and then nicely packaged it, and then proposed it and had it completely ignored ?

Do you understand how the upstream/downstream software update philosophy works in Linux ? And how any suggestions proposed have to fit in that philosophy?

When I read the above about “poo-poo” I do not think you do understand how things work in Linux.

7

With respect oldcpu, the terms of reference of my poll were actually implied to be suggestions for improvements aimed directly at the “lurking inner circle” suse members.

Maybe I didn’t make that clear enough, sorry about that.

Those who have actual “clout” in the ability to either take on, or reject those ideas, and integrate them into the distro, not merely for forum members to give their own opinions on why they think they can/cannot be introduced.

That way we can get a properly informed explanation and understanding of their reasons and thoughts, a real perspective of the direction in which openSUSE is heading and who it is actually aimed at, and at the same time clarify the question of whether the openSUSE forum community is actually being listened to, and counted as being a part of the wider “openSUSE community”.

I mean no ill feeling or disrespect to you sir, just wanted to clarify my intentions ;).

8

This is exactly my point, you hit the nail fair and square on the head.

It is (in your opinion) unbiased and uninformed as I do not (or rather DID not until today) know what openFATE was, where it was, or what it did! Had it been advertised on the front forum page like everything else then I might have gone to have a look at it, instead I rely on what other forum members have said about it (and no I will not name names or give reference examples, as that is merely a simple and cheap tool used by a failing discussion opponent to deflect attention from the actual points of the discussion. I have stated my opinions and views already, and it is up to the opponent to prove that they are misconceived).

That is how one forms an opinion, based on what they read/see/hear/experience. It’s completely irrelevant if reality differs from perception, as has been seen throughout the history of mankind.

That’s what advertising and education do, and should be used accordingly.

QED!

9

growbag wrote:
> Had it been advertised on the front forum page like everything
> else

apparently you believe the front forum page (forum.opensuse.org) is
the center of the openSUSE universe…it is not! try going to the
front page of this universe:

http://opensuse.org

where you will find links to the SUB-sections of the universe, like:

  1. software.opensuse.org where you can download openSUSE

  2. en.opensuse.org where you can learn about how to use openSUSE

  3. build.opensuse.org where you can build openSUSE

if you keep reading on that entry page to the universe you will find
links to bugzilla, documentation, wishlists (including FATE), mailing
list, how to participate and one SMALL part of the universe, the forums…

plus if you click on number 2. (the wiki) the first page you hit there
has links to most everything you thought was hidden away in some dark
corner (including FATE, Bugzilla, documentation, news, upcoming
events, etc etc etc)…

explore from the root (opensuse.org) not from one branch
(forums.opensuse.org)

–
DenverD (Linux Counter 282315)
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
posted via NNTP w/TBird 2.0.0.23 | KDE 3.5.7 | openSUSE 10.3
2.6.22.19-0.4-default SMP i686
AMD Athlon 1 GB RAM | GeForce FX 5500 | ASRock K8Upgrade-760GX |
CMedia 9761 AC’97 Audio

10

growbag wrote:
> With respect oldcpu, the terms of reference of my poll were actually
> implied to be suggestions for improvements aimed directly at the
> “lurking inner circle” suse members.

with respect growbag, (imo) the lurkers are more likely to keep their
heads inside the thread named “openSUSE Strategy: Community Statement”
and in the mail lists, on IRC, bugzilla, FATE and the other places
they already frequent…

what i’m saying is there seems to be a great deal of organizational
inertia, stratification and specialization that would have to be
overcome for the “inner circle” to begin coming to the forums with the
intention of learning what “the world” (represented by some few
thousands in the forum) thinks needs to be improved…

that is NOT to say that there is an intentional avoidance of users or
that there are not frequent explorations by the ‘uppers’ into these
‘lowers’…

obviously, ymmv.

–
DenverD (Linux Counter 282315)
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD
posted via NNTP w/TBird 2.0.0.23 | KDE 3.5.7 | openSUSE 10.3
2.6.22.19-0.4-default SMP i686
AMD Athlon 1 GB RAM | GeForce FX 5500 | ASRock K8Upgrade-760GX |
CMedia 9761 AC’97 Audio

11

Maybe other distributions aren’t as cash-laden, but bieng able to take on the “most popular” desktop Linux and setting it back a few steps is something I’m sure Microsoft or Apple or some other corporations would love to fund the attack on so I’m not sure being a “juicy target” is the only reason for not doing it. Not to mention, I haven’t had it work for me yet so I’ve had to manually add the <distro>-restircted package myself. Plus that argument doesn’t cover things that are not so encumbered, such as Flash and Java.

I’m not sure if 11.3 is going to be any different, but I remember installing I think 11.1 or 11.2 Gnome on my laptop and looking at the list of updates, was surprised to see Flash and Java show up automatically. Plus, Banshee-Helix played MP3s out of the box! So adversity to questionable codecs does not see to be true for all situations.

I second the easy-USB version, becuase I go through too many distributions to keep burning and paying for CDs (plus storage afterwards :wink: ). Right now I’m having trouble getting any distribution to work on my USB, but when I was able to it worked for everybody except openSUSE.

Communication up-and-down needs to improve, but seeing the growing “organizational inertia” is encouraging. I hope it comes to something.

12

And you reported the problem at https://bugzilla.novell.com/?
This is out of the question. Devs are not going to manage bug reports through the forum. It just is not a medium designed to manage bug reports.

¿¿¿¿???
If the default doesn’t works it’s a bug. But, without knowing grub or the boot process in detail, I don’t believe you are correct when saying “installing grub to the root partition means that your install will NOT boot”. The default MBR should look at the root partition…

And the easy “I don’t like it, do it better” approach to the partitioning thing will neither work. You perhaps can’t program to change the warnings/messages… but you can think of a new workflow with new warning messages, true? Then open a bug report/feature request and propose a new, better, detailed workflow for the partitioner/installer.

No. Discussing this is getting boring.
If you are not a lawyer, or have not talked with a lawyer, please, stop suggesting changes about this.

Ok. Don’t open new feature requests… but at least use the ones already opened by other users: https://features.opensuse.org/308323 (the first and only result when searching for DKMS…)

Done: openSUSE News » Boosters: Umbrella Sprint Summary
Well, in fact it seems to be everything but Bugzilla. Feel free to report it if you think it should be changed.

Have you a better explanation?
Couldn’t people just accept the openSUSE project/Novel doesn’t removes features just because they love to torture users? If the codecs could be there they would be… they aren’t because they can’t.

Summary of what has been said a lot of times
a) Copyright is different from patents
b) When openSUSE has distributed a MP3 decoder it has been because somebody else paid for the patent licenses (Real Networks with Helix and Fluendo with GStreamer).

13

Originally Posted by growbag

  1. Provide a proper, fully working USB stick version of the iso (I’ve tried many many times with several USB sticks and various laptops using both the dd/unetbootin/win32diskimager methods and still cannot get it to boot). I mean, CDs and DVDs are such an old, unreliable, awkward and slow technology that we really should be looking at the newer, better alternatives as more mainstream by now.

I have not tried making a USB version of openSUSE but seeing how it is some what new and not all computers boot from USB it will get worked out and fixed.

  1. More information/warnings when installing. This was actually DenverD’s suggestion in another thread, when installing give clear warning messages and explanations when partitioning to avoid problems. IE don’t take for granted that everyone knows about partitioning and what it does. Also give a clear warning that the default of installing grub to the root partition means that your install will NOT boot unless you change it to install grub on the MBR.

I have tried many versions of Linux and find openSUSE to be the best and esaist to install, but then i dont have a computer built by a company i build my own so i pick all my hardware out by doing research and finding the best for me. I remember when SUSE did not have drives for my printer Epson. I had to pick one that would do the job or get another printer.

  1. Dump the “head in the sand” approach to non-oss drivers and codecs. Inform the user that there are non-oss versions of drivers available for their hardware (wireless/video etc’) and make it a simple YES/NO click to get them installed. Also when a user tries to play a video with an unsupported codec, pop up a message that explains that the default media player was purposely crippled by openSUSE in order to avoid being sued by whoever, and that they can simply click YES or NO in order to switch to the Packman version. Same when a codec is needed. This could be easily programmed never to never even appear when the chosen install region was USA or another restrictive country where such codecs are banned.

This is really a legal issue for Novell and I’m sure it will not change till the industry changes their view on what to allow. Now I can tell you this that installing the software to play mp3 files and videos is a lot easier than it was with SUSE 9.3 or even up to 10.3 you had to find all the software to install now you put Packman’s repository in and put the VLC repository and you will have all you need.

4)Give us the DKMS system of kernel module auto-compilation/re-compilation. What this does is allows you to have things like Proprietary video/wireless/vbox drivers that are automatically re-compiled at boot time if there has been a kernel change. It is fantastic and makes life an absolute breeze for the end user, and also takes a load off the Forum people having to answer boring and repetitive questions about why the latest updates just hosed their system.

Again this is a Legal issue for Novell and until the companies release their code it will stay Proprietary software. Some Linux versions have a one button click for this but they post on their site which version of the distro you should download for the country you are in. Like this one.
(For magazines, companies and distributors in the USA, Japan and countries where the legislation allows patents to apply to software and distribution of restricted technologies may require the acquisition of 3rd party licenses).
It would be nice to have software code to make free software but some companies would not make any money and people would be out of a job. The big giant MS is paying a lot of money to companies and getting money from them.
There are ways around some of the Legal issues but not to many and the coders are doing the best they can and they are on a track to catch MS and they will. Because Linux is better at security it will catch up and by pass MS. People are getting tired of all the virus and spamware they get, it will just take time.
When I was in the Army I saw XP running on top of RedHat and that was not to long ago plus they had one training device that was running Amiga DOS. Yes I had an Amiga 200 long time ago and back then for $12,000. I could have run Amiga, Windows, Commodore 64, and IBM DOS all on one computer. WOW talk about old times and a CD-ROM cost $500 and wrote at 2X.

14

It isn’t that they “remove” features, it is that they don’t implement ones which puts the the responsibility onto the user. While it makes it easier, it is up to the user to choose to perform that action with all the warnings, bells and whistles to let them know they may be in for legal ka-ka if they go ahead and do it anyway.

Not to mention, while Novell is openSUSE’s sponsor, I thought openSUSE was a community project otherwise independent of Novell. Is openSUSE Novell’s lap-dog or is it not?

15

Words like that won’t get you anywhere in trying to have a good discussion.

Unfortunately IMHO posts worded like that are one of the reasons why we will never get the packagers and developers participate in any major way in our forum.

16

How to improve openSUSE?

Well I guess growbag meant the actual distro, but openSUSE is more than just the distro. The social/infrastructure of openSUSE is improving and that should be commended. Merging the forums, forming the Board, forming the openSUSE Boosters, revamping the wiki…all of these are good moves.

Looking at the distro itself, a number of my personal gripes have already been fixed but to contribute to the discussion…

  1. I agree that a simpler USB media experience would be ideal moving forward, especially as more and more computers lack disc drives.

  2. I’d love to see something akin to Ubuntu’s “paper cuts” project. Although as a tester I try to find a report small, easily fixed, things that would make the distro better (OpenOffice now has its grammar-checker installed by default for example) there are sure to be many things that I miss. I’d like to see a more formal effort in this regard.

  3. Simplify the OBS repo structure. This is already underway in some corners…The KDE branch is a mess of options that could be pared down (this is happening by the way).

  4. Continue the new version flexibility on bug-fix releases. OS 11.2 saw the standard update repo upgrade users from KDE 4.3.1 to 4.3.5, with similar moves for GNOME. In my opinion this makes perfect sense, if upstream is making the shipped software more stable then we should pass those bug-fixes on to users.

  5. Move to an annual release with a mid-year bug-fix release. I’m not actually a die-hard proponent for this, but I do like it. I think there could be some advantages in say releasing a major version every May, and then every November releasing a respin that was the same just with all the patches to date. I believe most major upstream software is mature enough to make this feasible.

This has a number of repercussions:

PROS
a. Conservative users get their “super-stable” release which will include all the official bug fixes from GNOME & KDE along with the squashing of most/all major bugs that may have cropped up in wide testing. People who have bandwidth limitations would also benefit from a ‘maximum fixes included’ iso being available.

b. Gives openSUSE consistent release months that everyone knows rather than the current tumbling system.

c. Buys the artists, programmers and testers a longer period of time to work on things for each major release.

d. Gives all the support mechanisms a longer shelf life. Forum helpers don’t need to shift their support target as quickly, manuals and wiki pages stay valid for longer periods of time, etc. etc.

e. Given the support commitment of “two releases plus two months” the support cycle would expand from 18 months to 26 months - the respin doesn’t count as a proper release since it just a collection of bug fixes for the major release. This would reduce the feeling of being on an “upgrade treadmill”.

CONS
a. There’s supposedly a large segment of Linux users that want new software but are only willing to get it through brand-new releases of the whole distro.

I think this segment is misunderstood. The users who need new major releases to get new software are using the major releases to get around their frustration with distros not providing new software via online updates. The presence of the OBS means anyone who really wants the newest Chromium/GNOME/Amarok/whatever can get it - what we need to do is make the OBS more discoverable.

b. openSUSE will miss a major update to GNOME and KDE.

I don’t think this is that big a deal. The current system already guarantees that major versions will be missed (for example OS 11.3 will have KDE 4.4.x while OS. 12.0 will have KDE 4.6.x).

17

growbag wrote:

>
> 1) Provide a proper, fully working USB stick version of the iso (I’ve
> tried many many times with several USB sticks and various laptops
> using both the dd/unetbootin/win32diskimager methods and still cannot
> get it to boot).

Hmm, I remember making up one of those not long ago, worked just fine.
I think it was the Live iso.

–
Per Jessen, Zürich (22.0°C)
http://en.opensuse.org/User:Pjessen

18

Once again, that still isn’t legally valid: [opensuse-kde] Call for testing: on-demand package installation](http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2010-03/msg00138.html)

The openSUSE project can take decissions indepently of Novell. But Novell is legally responsible of what it’s done. This will change once the openSUSE Foundation is created. (Not meaning once the openSUSE Foundation is created we will start to provide codecs)

But this has nothing to do with Novell vs openSUSE, devs vs forum users or anything similar…

  • When we need to take a decision about the kernel we ask the kernel devs, not the KDE devs.
  • When we need to take a decision about KDE we ask the KDE devs, not the kernel devs.
  • When we need to take a legal decision we ask the lawyers (and the ones we have are the ones from Novell), not random forum users.
19

Per Jessen wrote:

> growbag wrote:
>
>>
>> 1) Provide a proper, fully working USB stick version of the iso (I’ve
>> tried many many times with several USB sticks and various laptops
>> using both the dd/unetbootin/win32diskimager methods and still cannot
>> get it to boot).
>
> Hmm, I remember making up one of those not long ago, worked just fine…
> I think it was the Live iso.
>

Here we go - this works very well:

http://wiki.opensuse.org/SDB:Live_USB_stick

–
Per Jessen, Zürich (22.9°C)
http://en.opensuse.org/User:Pjessen

20

On making USB-install sticks/disks:
Search the forums for “isohybrid” and you’ll find some posts on how to make USB-install media from any CD/DVD iso image.