On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 08:43:08 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2014-11-17 22:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 15:36:02 +0000, consused wrote:
>
>
>>> Just thoughts:
>>>
>>> * Tumbleweed now has improved forum visibility to match its newly
>>> published status.
>
> It already had its own forum here. What happens to it? :-?
The NNTP side? That stays, but I suppose it might make sense to make it
read-only.
>>> * Evergreen has been relatively low volume wrt forum queries. It’s
>>> after all just extended standard release, and so seems to be “odd one
>>> out”.
>
> It can be handled just as easily inside the rest of the groups, as till
> now. Like I just said on another post:
I’ve made a note of your thoughts here.
> «We may have, for instance, a user with 12.2 posting in Applications (it
> is a no longer supported release, too old), and another using the even
> older 11.4 having to post in “beta” - sorry, I can not see the actual
> current name where I sit - because it is an Evergreen version.»
>
>
>> Ultimately, driven by the fact that we don’t rename on the NNTP side of
>> things (because we can’t - we can delete and create, and we lose
>> history if we do that).
>
> Well, it is work, but you can freeze a group and create a new one. :-?
That’s fairly disruptive to do - it stops threads that are in progress,
and while if, for example, a thread is started in one place and continues
in another, then we’ll get complaints from some NNTP users that there’s
no continuity. We have historical precedent for that.
> And perhaps, this is a guess, you can do the equivalent of “symlink”. It
> is similar to what happens with the susestudio group, that has two
> places, suse and opensuse.
As I recall, that’s because the forums are hosted on two different
servers (on the web side).
> Sorry, I have to clarify again: my use of “you” is plural, not singular.
> This is very confusing for Spanish people like me, because we have and
> use “thou” and “you” with very distinct meaning. I don’t know how to use
> “you” in English and convey that exact distinction, and I’m not aware
> when other people are interpreting what I say very differently than what
> I intended.
I understand your meaning perfectly here.
>> We’ve had our discussion amongst the staff; the naming does make sense
>> in general if you read it not as “these are beta releases” but rather
>> “these are classifications of openSUSE distributions that have special
>> support needs”.
>
> However, Evergreen is way more similar to the standard, stable, release,
> than to Tumbleweed. One is the older of the loop, the other is the
> newest. It could very well stay where it was, IMO.
It could, but it’s not an “official” part of the project - it’s a
community-maintained project.
The purpose of this grouping is to separate the mainstream “13.x” (or
whatever releases) from the “special” releases, development releases, etc.
>> The subtitle on the forum makes it somewhat clearer, though it could be
>> argued (correctly, IMHO) that Factory isn’t a ‘derivative’, but in many
>> ways is the “upstream” release.
>>
>> Still, it may not be perfect, but it is what it is - and the tagging
>> that we’ve enabled in that forum means that users posting in the forum
>> should be indicating what release they’re using. We thought we’d try
>> tagging there to see if that made it a little easier to keep track of
>> who was posting relating to which of these (Factory, Tumbleweed,
>> Evergreen, or Pre-Release/Beta). There’s not really enough traffic for
>> any of these individual versions/distributions, so grouping them
>> together makes some sense in that regard.
>
> Ok, accepted. I can not agree, but I accept it.
>
> Please then add a post somewhere that nntp users can easily read where
> there is a list of the nntp names and the corresponding web side names,
> and what are the appropriate questions on each, and links to each group.
>
> We need instructions.
>
> Also please explain how are nntp users to add those “tags”, so that the
> web side users understand them, too. And the other way round.
Here’s how you add a tag from the NNTP side: Include the information
about your release in your post or in the subject line. NNTP users tend
to be a lot more saavy about stuff, and there aren’t “training wheels” as
there are on the web interface to remind people to include pertinent
information.
This is one of those things that doesn’t translate from the web to the
NNTP side.
> Nntp users are few, but active; we can write faster and we have a large
> knowledge pool, being typically older 
Please do not forget us, even
> if we are second class citizens, as we are reminded now and then.
>
> (and again, this “you” does not mean “thou” )
You forget that I almost exclusively use NNTP myself.
>> I’m also going to say something here that applies generally (so is not
>> directed at any individual):
>>
>> Let me also be clear - staff here doesn’t mind suggestions or ideas,
>> but presentation is important. Characterizing the current
>> implementation as “daft” or using other inflammatory language is going
>> to probably not draw a positive response. If anyone wants their
>> suggestions to be taken seriously, consider your tone and word choice.
>
> Apologies then.
>
> I’m Spanish, we heat up easily. We shout at each other, then we go to
> the bar to drink beer happily. It is a cultural behaviour.
I’ve worked jobs where I’ve had that relationship with others and with
even my management, so it’s not a Spanish thing exclusively.
But remember that in those situations, we have nonverbal cues to work
from, and it’s a more immersive situation. You have a heated argument
with someone in the hallway/office/whatever, but you see them around, and
you talk with them about things other than work.
Here, in a written medium, we don’t have those nonverbal cues, so clarity
is important. Coming across as pissed off all the time is going to get
you ignored - trust me on that. The forums also aren’t immersive in the
same way, and you don’t have that continuity of seeing the person
throughout the day, chatting around the water cooler, etc.
So when every post is an angry-sounding post, and there’s no “hey, let’s
go down to the pub and grab a beer after work” that takes place, then all
you’re projecting is ‘pissed off all the time’.
It’s a very different social situation, and as such, needs to be
approached differently.
Jim
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C
