I’m not sure this is the correct sub forum for this. It’s supposed to be general feedback on openSuSE from the standpoint of a person that is new to it, but not new to Linux or computers in general.
My observation
I’m using the default install with KDE (OpenSuSE 11.2)
The most confusing thing for me is the package management.
There is this Update Notification app in the tray of the standard KDE bar on the bottom right.
There is Menu -> Applications -> System -> Configuration -> Install Software
There is Menu -> Computer -> Install Software
And then there is YaST with:
4. Software -> Add-On Products
5. Software -> Online Update
6. Software -> Online Update Configuration
7. Software -> Package Search (webpin)
8. Software -> Software Management
9. Software -> Software Repositories
My conclusion
All of the tools in YaST start different programs and the Menu links to some of those directly under different names. For example where the menu calls it “Install Software” YaST calls the same thing “Software Management”.
I also noticed that there are updates, upgrades and patches?! The “Online Update” program shows different updates than the KDE tray icon program, etc.
Being new to openSuSE and having no background on it whatsoever this is highly confusing.
How to improve this
In my opinion there should be one place for experts that allows them to install and remove every package by it’s name (including libs, and so on).
Additionally there should be a more user friendly tool that only displays applications, together with screenshots, ratings, etc. No libs, no dependencies, no confusing stuff. A user should be able to click on Gimp there and it gets installed together with whatever it needs to run (but without being told any details of the 100 packages that it might require).
The same tool should also offer a place to uninstall applications by allowing you to see which applications you have already installed (again excluding libs, and all that stuff). Ideally it would also remove all the things that got installed as dependencies once they are no longer required. (The 100 packages Gimp required and the user didn’t really care about).
Repository Management should be one central app that can be called easily from both the pro package manager in (1) and the user friendly one in (2).
Automatic updates should also be handled by one central application, with a tray icon that automatically informs you about updates and allows you to install them or does so automatically on it’s own.
The available programs from http://software.opensuse.org should be directly searchable and installable from both the package managers in (1) and (2).
There’s a couple of things in your post I like: it’s no good to call one and the same app “Software installer” in one place, “Software management” in another; you took the time to comment
But there’s a lot of things you would not have writen if you would have read first. The entire software management does have one central application, zypper.
About first three items: number 2 and 3 are the same entry in two places. You could f.e. put Opera in Internet/Browser ánd Internet/Mail since it’s both.
About the Yast items: they are all different things of which some can be used from within one of the others f.e. you can start the repo manager from Software management.
About not showing the dependencies pulled in: come on, you would be the next Ex-Buntu user that claims Buntu does not pull in other packages, openSUSE devs lie about size of packages etc etc.
From what I read I get the feeling this is a call to change openSUSE into the next Buntu spin-off. As far as I’m concerned no way
Furthermore I do get the sensation, that this was writen without thorough reading of what openSUSE and it’s package management realy are.
Zypper is no UI app though, so it’s practically invisible to a normal user.
I’m not saying openSUSE is lying about anything or that Ubuntu is doing it better. In fact Ubuntu is working on something similar to what I proposed here and I think it’s a good thing. But they aren’t there yet. I have found out that SUSE is working on something web based called the “Software Center”. It looks to me like this could be what I described under my original solution point (2).
I’m not saying be exactly like Ubuntu. But that simple application manager thing they are planning is a good thing in my opinion.
Yes, as I have said in my original post. This is supposed to reflect what a new user sees when stumpling onto the distro, with no knowledge about the distro itself. General Linux experience yes, general computer experience yes, SUSE experience no. That includes reading anything about it, etc. I think that these things could be improved to the point that a random person (with just general linux experience) would not have to read anything about it anymore.
I pointed it out so that SUSE devs get a chance to see through the eyes of someone who is new to SUSE.
Additionally there should be a more user friendly tool that only displays applications, together with screenshots, ratings, etc. No libs, no dependencies, no confusing stuff. A user should be able to click on Gimp there and it gets installed together with whatever it needs to run (but without being told any details of the 100 packages that it might require).
I would have to disagree. It’s very useful to know what is pulled in additionally when trying to install a package. I don’t want some package pulling in half of GNOME without me knowing it
The same tool should also offer a place to uninstall applications by allowing you to see which applications you have already installed (again excluding libs, and all that stuff). Ideally it would also remove all the things that got installed as dependencies once they are no longer required. (The 100 packages Gimp required and the user didn’t really care about).
This can be a bit dangerous as it may need to pull out a lib which another program depends on and in the end break stuff… However a feature has been proposed https://features.opensuse.org/300758
Automatic updates should also be handled by one central application, with a tray icon that automatically informs you about updates and allows you to install them or does so automatically on it’s own.
It already is, it’s called kupdateapplet and lives right here in my systray
I pointed it out so that SUSE devs get a chance to see through the eyes of someone who is new to SUSE.
SUSE devs don’t frequent this forum much, if at all. You’ll have better luck at https://features.opensuse.org by opening a ticket
I think the points you raise are good and I’m sure packaging systems will head in that direction. But change tends to be evolutionary. There is a fair bit of history and baggage in the way the packaging system is organised in openSUSE, and it takes time to deprecate older mechanisms and phrasings. Also KDE has their own package manager (packagekit) which is different from YaST, and openSUSE has deemphasised that.
As for screenshots and ratings, all that is feasible, it just takes effort and resourcing. Because in OSS software is produced in a decentralised manner, such a website would have to be designed to be distro agnostic to gain enough support and to amortise the cost.
Mind you, I don’t think things are rosy in other OSes either. How many websites and reviews does the average person have to rummage through to select an app? Many people just give up and go with what got preinstalled, even if it was a time-limited copy. That’s why vendors are so keen on being on the preinstalled machine.
And things aren’t going to get easier with app stores for mobile devices. The future is going to be more and more confusing choices and we’ll just have to cope best as we can.
Zypper is no UI app though, so it’s practically invisible to a normal user.
I wouldn’t say that it’s invisible. You will find extensive information in the man pages.
man zypper
will explain concepts and give extensive information on each command. For quick reference,
zypper --help
will give a list of commands, and
zypper help command
will give a list of options for command. If nothing else, it might be prudent to understand what all of these GUI front-ends are using.
One good reason to familiarize yourself with the terminal is that many things that work in openSUSE will work in any other Linux distro as well, including Ubuntu. Most of the commands are standard (although not zypper), and knowing them will help get you started quickly if you should decide to try something new. They also tend to have many more options than their front-end GUIs, which are usually limited to what their developer decides is important.
If you see yourself as a beginner, why not take a little time to learn a few things? You’ll find plenty of assistance in these forums. I see this is your first thread, don’t hesitate to ask questions!
I’m not a beginner in Linux or computers, just in SUSE. I didn’t post this because I was seeking help.
I know I hadn’t read anything, as said before, I just wanted to take the chance to write down what I noticed when I first looked at it. Once I start reading stuff I can no longer remember how I felt when I didn’t know all those things.
By now I have read up on everything and I know by now about zypper, yast, the PackageKit backend to the update notification tray thingie, etc etc…
I just want to mention that I was also a beginner at one stage with openSUSE, and I had a couple of questions that was quickly answered by this friendly community.
It was not long and I was up and running with a perfect system that fulfilled all my multimedia needs. I am also running Virtualbox - the non OSE version (USB is not supported in the OSE version) to test other OSES.
My system also runs SAMBA for windows file sharing. Also alongside everything else I run webmin which is a great tool for administering a system remotely accross the web.
So all I am saying is that from my point of view openSUSE was not too confusing at all. I invite you to stick a while with openSUSE and learn a few things, maybe it will become your OS of choice.
Yea, the community here is indeed very friendly. I’m quite surprised about that.
I will sure try it out some more. I’m currently evaluating several distros to find the right choice for me and SUSE is very much at the top so far
The only thing that comes close is Ubuntu. But SUSE has a few strong points that make me wanna stick with it, even if you overlook the fact that KDE in Ubuntu is a side-project and for SUSE it seems to be the main thing.
A: over 9000
S: female, though with high suspicion it’s actually a male in the closet
L: some dark deserted sh|thole where all are melancholic and await the return of the Dark Prince to save them all, or do them a favor and … but the thing is, he’ll never come but they still keep deluding themselves
Well, there are some real curmudgeons here, as you may well discover. The upside is some of them are also very expert and sometimes helpful.
I’ve got a slightly different take on your comments. Good comments, btw, I noticed something similar when I first started using openSuSE. However, after having used openSuSE for the past few months, I’m beginning to think that what I initially viewed as unnecessarily confusing was just me getting used to the local layout. Although, I did install a 2nd panel that uses the traditional Gnome menu, instead of the OpenSuSE menu, I still keep the openSuSE menu that I originally found confusing, and now am beginning to like it. I also have to note that Gnome has a single update notifier on the panel (“system tray”), just like Ubuntu and Fedora (same app, actually).
