P2P IP Camera recommendations wrt software and hardware ?

English Applications
#1

This request for information could be in many forum areas - but in the end I decided to place it here under ‘applications’.

I’m pondering the purchase of a P2P IP Camera. For those who don’t know, my understanding is these tend to be sort of like a stand-alone security webcam, that plugs into one’s network directly (using wireless and/or 10baseT wired eithernet). The cameras are typically remotely controllable , such that they can possibly zoom, and also rotate in looking. People often use such a camera internal to their house, for monitoring the baby’s room, etc … ie this is not an ordinary webcam.

I’m curious if our membership have any suggestions wrt Linux applications that can use such a camera’s features ? I think nominally one simply uses a browser to access such a camera, but I’m not sure. I also know there are Android applications designed for accessing and remotely controlling such a device.

And in addition to the ‘applications’ are there any members who have a recommendation for the P2P IP camera hardware ? I’m pretty much convinced to spend no more than 100-euros (as I plan to buy this mainly to teach myself some things).

#2

For an application (in addition to a regular browser) I am currently considering ZoneMinder which is packaged for openSUSE.

And as an entry level P2P IP camera with reasonable features/value-for the money, I pondering a Foscam FI9821W V2 (although I note there are also MANY nice P2P IP cams available).

#3

On 2014-08-02 18:36, oldcpu wrote:

> People often use such a camera internal to their house, for
> monitoring the baby’s room, etc …

I forgot to mention, about regulations. In my country, the regulations
are strict if the things record the images, but not so if they just
/display/. Most baby-watch cameras can not record at all.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Minas Tirith))

#4

On 2014-08-02 18:36, oldcpu wrote:

> I’m curious if our membership have any suggestions wrt Linux
> applications that can use such a camera’s features ? I think nominally
> one simply uses a browser to access such a camera, but I’m not sure.

You are right, some/many do.

I don’t remember the brand name, but one type I tried absolutely
required the browser to be iexplorer, so they would not work at all with
Linux. Not even Firefox in Windows. I don’t remember now if they were
using activex… so be careful with the specifications.

I

> And in addition to the ‘applications’ are there any members who have a
> recommendation for the P2P IP camera hardware ? I’m pretty much
> convinced to spend no more than 100-euros (as I plan to buy this mainly
> to teach myself some things).

Even if the cameras are inside the house, there may be regulations. In
my country, they have to be registered with the police and the data
protection agency - because they can “accidentally” record someone that
“happens” to be inside your house, like a visitor or a thief.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Minas Tirith))

#5

That’s good advice. I read, for example, that Tenvis IP ROBOT 3 does not play well with iOS nor with GNU/Linux. I have read of GNU/Linux users using the Foscam F1I9821W and there are guides on using GNU/Linux Zone Minder with Foscam cameras.

Thanks for the heads up. I’ll look in to this. It surprises me a bit that there would be regulations, but fair enough. Regulations, if in place, need to be determined and followed.

These are the sort of things that I want to learn - which is why I plan to proceed here.

#6

Further to this, and indeed noting this is good advice, most long-in-the-tooth GNU/Linux users (where possibly I fall in to that category) are used to having to research for GNU/Linux compatibility prior to any computer related hardware purchase. In the case of the FI9821W that I am considering, I note this article http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/invite-big-brother-into-your-home-with-the-latest-foolproof-ip-cameras/#!bugX13:

The Foscam FI9821W Black Wireless IP Camera … is the company’s latest 720p HD IP camera. It is also their first camera to sport Foscam’s brand new web interface, allowing all features to be compatible with every standard browser on the market, including Chrome, Firefox, and Safari.

I do want to make a cautionary statement wrt anything I may be leaning toward installing (as an application) and my buying for IP camera hardware. Some years back I purchased an expensive Logitech webcam that I am very happy with. I’ve used this webcam mainly for Skype and the occasional home-brewed (for a small group of friends) podcast. I posted on the openSUSE forum I was happy with it and that it worked well. Unfortunately a user with different requirements from me, purchased the same webcam and was very unhappy with it because it did not have the ‘infinity’ focus they wanted. They then jumped on the thread I started noting their unhappiness. They wanted the webcam to look outdoors and obtain HD quality images of what was happening there, and that was NOT my requirement. So please, for anyone reading this thread, if I end up purchasing IP-camera-X, do NOT purchase the same IP camera unless your needs are 100% identical to mine. And even then, do NOT purchase the same IP-Camera blindly. Read up on the IP-Camera, go to the IP-Camera specific forums and ask questions, and study yourself and come to your own conclusions INDEPENDENT of mine. I do NOT want to feel responsible for someone else’s disappointment.

#7

I’m wading through the Amazon reviews on the FI9821W. Its heavy going due to massive size ( > 500 reviews - some good - some bad). I did learn that the FI9821W V2 does not currently have a compatible plugin for Firefox or Chrome on Mac OSX. I assume that also means no such plugin for GNU/Linux. What that means to me is to obtain access to full features on my GNU/Linux PC I likely would need to use my WinXP (which is running in VirtualBox) or use Firefox/Chrome from my GNU/Linux with only some of the features available.

On the subject of applications, I learned it may be possible to stream the camera’s video to VLC, although I can not vouch for that, NOR even dream of helping anyone in that regard since I am simply at the application research stage now prior to any purchase. So please for anyone other than myself reading this thread - no questions to me, as I am the one here trying to learn. :slight_smile:

I’m a bit taken back by how many users (on the Amazon site) are upset because an IP camera does not work as they expected when they are using the camera for things which I doubt it was designed for. One user complained it could not be used to record hours of a classroom lecture. Another complained it did not work well out doors (there are specific different cameras designed to work out doors). … etc …

Experience (lack there of) with port forwarding appears to a major issue for a number of users who can not monitor remotely.

If nothing else, the research has been educational thus far.

#8

How about ZoneMinder + a supported device? ( http://www.zoneminder.com/wiki/index.php/Hardware_Compatibility_List )

Ah you already had it up there - missed it. Not enough coffee today… need to make more :slight_smile:

#9

As expected when I started this - the information available is a bit contradictory. I found one GNU/Linux user on Amazon complain that the Foscam FI9821W did not work with GNU/Linux with any browser (while same user noted Foscam FI9810 did work). Then I found a web site here and web site here which note Foscam cameras can be setup on any OS (ie works with GNU/Linux) without having to resort to using the browser plugins. … It may take time for me to flush out who is right and who is wrong (and likely both are right - with some qualifications).

EDIT: Those may in fact just be commercial advertisement pages - so they may not be accurate. I recommend disregarding those links for now. I will delete them (with my mod permissions) if I confirm that to be the case.

#10

I researched this, and as near as I can tell in Germany, if the IP camera is only looking inside my apartment, it is perfectly legal. However if it is looking outside my apartment to a public area, then a permit may be required < not sure > . Since I intend to use this for surveillance inside my apartment (pointed a the door/entrance), I don’t see a problem currently. Plus, I don’t really plan to set this up for any permanent internal surveillance, but rather I am just trying to teach myself about technical issues, and learn a bit about ‘requirements’ through some basic experience.

Given both my wife and I are the only ones who live in our apartment, and given we will both have access to the data (ie for oversight), from what I can deduce there is no moral issue. Possibly the only issue might be recording when visitors enter our apartment. My current plan is to stop any recordings at those times.

Hence I’m satisfied for now wrt reglations and I am going to go back to focussing on the technical.

Speaking of which, the older Foscam FI9810W gets good comments on GNU/Linux compatibility. And while it is much less capable than the FI9821W and FI9826W, given I am interested in learning, I may go with that less capable FI9810W.

#11

You should consider the fact that a low resolution, low update speed cam like Foscam FI9810W also makes it a lot harder to identify people.

I wouldn’t consider anything lower than 720p/15fps for any real surveillance nowadays.

#12

I don’t have any idea that fits in to your budget. If you getting up in price I would recommend Axis cameras. I have a Axis2100 bought 2001 on my lan and its watching my yard. Running Linux with built in webserver. Its old now but still working. God luck in your search.

Regards

#13

Indeed that was my view to start with, and still mostly my view.

I should note that that “real” full time surveillance is not my initial goal.

Instead I do note I want to initially start ‘playing’ with this to learn , and if I set myself too big a challenge, I won’t succeed and I’ll simply give up. The first “hill” needs to be NOT too big such that it completely discourages me from trying further to climb after a failed first few attempts.

A big concern I have is if there is no GNU/Linux compatibility with a 720p then that is mostly a show stopper for me. A poor quality 480p that works is in my books superior to a 720p that does not work, despite it being painful to type that

The initial Reviews on Amazon of the FI9821W (which is a 720p) had some very strong statements from GNU/Linux users that the FI9821W did not work with any GNU/Linux browser. Even Windows and Mac users were struggling with their browsers where they had plugins. The Windows/Mac plugins did not work with GNU/Linux, and without the browser plugins it was commented that the FI9821W camera could not be used from a browser in any OS.

… but it appears now there could be more to this …

I am now going through the Foscam forum, and have stumbled across posts by a user who goes by the handle “TheUberOverLord” who appears to be providing HTML code that can be used by a GNU/Linux browser to get some sort of functionality/control over the FI9821W with GNU/Linux : http://foscam.us/forum/free-generic-browser-interface-for-foscam-fi9821w-cameras-t4341.html Its a massive thread, started in February-2013 with last post in May-2014. It will take time to review that thread. Its not clear to me which of the FI9821W’s features are available to GNU/Linux users from a browser using “TheUberOverLoad’s” HTML code, nor given last post in May, if “TheUberOverLord” is moving on to other activities, and is about to stop working on this.
.

#14

On 2014-08-03 13:26, oldcpu wrote:
>
> robin_listas;2657155 Wrote:
>>
>> Even if the cameras are inside the house, there may be regulations. In
>> my country, they have to be registered with the police and the data
>> protection agency - because they can “accidentally” record someone that
>> “happens” to be inside your house, like a visitor or a thief.
>>
>
> I researched this, and as near as I can tell in Germany, if the IP
> camera is only looking inside my apartment, it is perfectly legal.
> However if it is looking outside my apartment to a public area, then a
> permit may be required < not sure > . Since I intend to use this for
> surveillance inside my apartment (pointed a the door/entrance), I don’t
> see a problem currently. Plus, I don’t really plan to set this up for
> any permanent internal surveillance, but rather I am just trying to
> teach myself about technical issues, and learn a bit about
> ‘requirements’ through some basic experience.

Regulations for each country differ.

For instance, if I have a non registered camera recording strictly
inside my house, there is a robbery, and the camera registers the face
of the guy, and the fact, it can not be used in court at all. You need
independent proofs, like fingerprints and such. You may even need to
prove that the police seeked for the guy without using the photos.

Also, if the camera is hidden and records a friend or a visitor, even
totally innocent pictures, he can sue me for recording his picture
without telling him in advance. There has to be a notice in the premises
saying that there are recording cameras in action.

For instance, I wanted to have a camera pointing just to the outside of
my door, to find out from my chair who is ringing the bell; even from
the “hole” in the door, the ringer button location is too far for me to
recognize the face without opening - then to find out that they want to
sell me broomsticks!

Well, I had to back out.

I can replace the “hole” and lenses in the door with a digital camera
and display, with battery, and no recording device. That’s legal. But it
has no zoom and thus it is useless to me. And it can not be connected to
the computer (or the mobile phone) at the other end of the house, so
that I have to get up, anyway… Imagine that I’m having a siesta, get
up, and find a broom-seller.

A very interesting usage is just surveillance cameras, to find out if
your house is still there, when you are in a trip…

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Minas Tirith))

#15

On 2014-08-03 14:06, Miuku wrote:

> I wouldn’t consider anything lower than 720p/15fps for any real
> surveillance nowadays.

Verisure uses far less. :frowning:

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Minas Tirith))

#16

On 2014-08-03 15:06, oldcpu wrote:
>
> Miuku;2657236 Wrote:
>> You should consider the fact that a low resolution, low update speed cam
>> like Foscam FI9810W also makes it a lot harder to identify people.
>>
>> I wouldn’t consider anything lower than 720p/15fps for any real
>> surveillance nowadays.
>
> Indeed that was my view to start with, and still mostly my view.

Mmm.

72050015*3 = 16200000 bytes per second

Very rough estimate. But it is clear they need high compression in order
to send via network. Plain 100 cable would not suffice for uncompressed
video.

That may be the reason they use solutions that require “special”
browsers :-?

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” (Minas Tirith))

#17

I checked that wrt Germany, and as near I can determine, this can be used in court in Germany.

I could find no reference to German law here. But to me it would be unethical to take secret videos and/or pictures of someone who is visiting my wife and I at our place (when we are home) and so my approach would be to put a cloth over the camera when my wife and I are home.

wrt obtaining surveillance, as part of the things we would do when leaving the house (we each have a check list) we would remove the cloth so the IP-camera can now view the door from the inside. The camera would only take videos of my wife and I as we come and go, or videos of anyone who is illegal. If we give anyone special access to our place when we are gone, we will of course tell them of the camera.

The following PDF is a bit old, but it provides some information: http://www.surveillance-and-society.org/articles2(2)/regulation.pdf

… and as noted , I am now convinced I am 100% legal here and I am now focusing on the technical.

#18

I’m still digging to understand this. I did read that one reason Foscam (and other IP-camera suppliers) have gone to h264 is achieve maximum compression for video/file storage. The Foscam IP-cameras I have been looking at have an SD-slot where one can put up to a 32-GB SD card (recommended class-6 or higher by Foscam). I read one user note that after a day, only a very small number of files were present and he thought he could go for many days. And I read of another user who moaned that after 1-day of use, the 32-GB card was full. Identical IP-cameras (720p). Two completely different assessments. My only conclusion can be that they have their IP-cameras configured differently.

wrt special browser, I read it depends on the IP-camera as even with Foscam they can have different plugins for different cameras. One user complained that the plugin required significant permissions on their Windows PC that they did not like to give. Foscam replied the reason the plugin has to have more than basic plugin requirements is so it can manually record to the hard drive. Foscam assured the user that these camera’s and their plugins are self contained and send no information to Foscam.

Another user noted Foscam has not registered their extensions, which are required to run on any browser, with any of the browser companies. So, Chrome does not work. Foscam noted their older MJPEG cameras required the use of Internet Explorer to use the 2 way audio feature. They claimed they are currently working on getting the plugin approved and added to the Google Chrome Store.

Of course none of these plugins are GNU-Linux compatible.

As noted in my previous post, a user has GNU-Linux browsers working with the Foscam FI9821W camera:

but they also note to initially setup the camera, one needs to use MS-Windows with a browser with the right plugin, or I think the Mac iOS safari browser with the right plugin. I’ve also read the plugins can be a bit flakey, but that could be users messing up, as opposed to the plugin fault. Its really hard to tell when reading these things.

#19

I got interested and check it up what the law here. Sins a year ago we have a new law in place:
-if you have a camera inside or watching private property outside and in places where the public dont have access’(like home) and not watching public areas its ok.

So I’m ok :).

“There has to be a notice in the premises saying that there are recording cameras in action.”. I not shore if that is relevant any longer at home. I could be wrong.

Regards

#20

I took a brief look at AxisM10 series: http://www.axis.com/products/m10_series/

AXIS M1025, M1014, AXIS M1004-W, M1033-W, M1034-W and AXIS M1054 are significantly outside even a big extension to my budget.

If I extend my budget by 50% AXIS M1013 would be at the very upper limit. The AXIS M1013 has a resolution of 800x600 and low light performance of 1.2 lux. I note no audio. I would need to research it some more to see if extended my budget 50% is worth while - given it appears to have less features.

Still GNU/Linux compatibility means a lot to me which causes me to not reject M1013 outright (just yet).