I read a lot of blah blah … did you forget who you where talking to…
How about OK not this is definite but a good source o0f indication of what is happening why is hpd down to 4th(distrowatch)why is os losing to mint and probably mandriva then?
Perhaps most importantly, this is one project where the developers and users are in constant interaction, resulting in dramatic, user-driven improvements with every new release
So carry on and lose market share or address it but at the moment with that outlook all it is doing is allowing other distro’s to grow… Whilst oS becomes the testing ground for sles/sled…
Don’t get me wrong I understand what you’re saying but when I started using 9.3 the forum was full of this is the testing ground for sled/sles they where different beasts and felt like it… But can you really tell me what he have now is comparable to 9.3 I remember the days when slipping onto the latest kde was pretty much a no go and Suse was critisised by some for being stale I suspect many would like stale and stable back.
I agree this related to strtegy and resources but by embracing the user community you should increase the developer resources its a numbers game…
That next person you call a troll may well become the next mint dev.
I think one is confusing the packagers with the developers.
In general, Linux distributions are put together by packagers, NOT by developers. They may be a small number of developers with a distribution, but they are in the minority. The majority are packagers.
Linux survives because many distributions send feedback and fixes upstream to the developers who in turn send them back down to benefit all distributions. At the distribution level, the packagers do the packaging. In the case of Ubuntu (which Linux Mint is based on), they send their fixes to Debian, who may or may not agree with the fix, and hence it may never make it upstream, or if it does, it makes it up late. Which means other distributions do not benefit in a timely manner from Ubuntu fixes.
Take a look at SuSE history and read some of the reasons why it split from Slackware. Part of the reason was sending fixes from SuSE thru slackware just did not meet the goals of the distribution. It was too slow. Fixes did not happen in time. But that is what is happening with Ubuntu, and it is surviving because a multimillionaire is footing the bill. But IMHO its not helping Linux in general as much as it could be doing.
Hence I do not give much credence to such posts about Linux Mint, as something to emulate. Just the contrary. I see them as something to avoid. Their fixes are too slow going upstream.
But if one is talking about user liaison with Distribution Packagers, then it is a different kettle of fish.
Well you opinion is users aren’t worth anything it is all about upstream.
Then Suse is no angel either Suse is very un-vanillish and has many patches that aren’t upstreamed have a look at grub to see how many patches are added.
Packagers don’t just package and to say they do little is very unfair I know for a fact you’ll feel the help given from an Arch user why because as a more vanilla system working upstream is actually easier than using Suse as a base for clarity look in wiki for the notes from Prague and the golden cage…
I did not say that. What I did say was Linux with only users and no developers can not exist. That is not saying they are worthless.
You are making up words I never said. Please point to the EXACT words where that was said. If you are going to make up claims about an opinion that I never expressed then I will leave this thread.
Thats the trouble with discussing with you (and this has happened in the past too). You make up things when your argument is being debated.
What ? thats not true. The patches are either copied from upstream (ie they are ALREADY THERE !!! ) or they are being sent upstream in parallel.
That sentence is so long it is impossible to read. Who said packagers do little ? I assume you are referring to something other than this thread? Because that definitely is NOT my view you are making up there.
Anyway, I don’t understand that sentence, it make sense to me, and if you need to invent things to discuss this, I WILL leave this thread.
You better take it up with the guys in the prague office they would disagree there is a fair bit in Suse that is Suse’d…
As for making it up no it is the clarity of you argument that is poor… Then you resort to not understanding or that you’re being personally attacked which is rarely the case and just you being over sensitive and that I have encountered and witnessed on more than one occasion.
If openSUSE needs more developers, where will they come from? I see two quick places:
Developers on other distros will be enticed to become developers on openSUSE.
Non-developer USERS of openSUSE will be enticed to become developers on openSUSE.
#2 is what I’d like to see. I don’t think there is a shortage in oS of users who would like to help develop if they only had the skills. The question as I see it is, “Should those who would like to learn so they can be helped in house or sent to another distro to learn and then invited back to develop oS once they have the skills?” If you send them out of house to learn and then come back, I doubt many will come back. Where they learn is where they will stay.
what exactly are we talking about here?
I think what would help here is a clear understanding about “developers” and “packagers”;
what is it they do?
how does it fit into pushing out a new openSUSE release?
where do they cross-over (or are we using both terms synonomously?)
how many do we have?
how many do we need?
non-development application packages
Not supporting packages not related to developers that’s one needs better definition if it is going to be viable. Where do advocates/ambassadors, marketing and design groups fall? Are they considered “developers”, “packagers” or some other category that is not specifically listed and, as not being “developers” may find their programs of choice regressed. What about documentation and wiki?
non-contributing users
As for “free-loaders” for a Linux distro; DEAL.
Every distro has them and there is nothing you can do about it. Instead, build an environment to make a larger number of them contributors instead.
make it easy for them to contribute
make it a positive environment so they want to contribute
take each opportunity to teach them what they are doing right, and what they can improve upon (mentor)
Heck, if each current developer and packager (assuming they are not the same ) were to offer to mentor one person, and you 1/4 of the mentors somebody to help isn’t that still an increase in active participants and reduction of the free-loader?
Sorry… unintelligible babble is my first language, English my second.
If you have 12 developers and manage to get 3 people to be “mentored” (one to a developer/packager/whatever), you still increase the contributor base by 3.
> One thing I would like to see, as a volunteer for providing support, is
> some sort of guidance provided by the developers (and the packagers) to
> the support volunteers , in providing guidance so that the support
> volunteers can document the way things are done for basic user support.
I would agree with this. Something that I’ve been thinking about since
this discussion started is that an escalation path for issues from the
forums (for example) might be very useful.
I’ve seen and participated in models like this in the past in the Novell
forums - the idea being that volunteers have the ability to escalate to
backline support (in that case) allows the volunteers to be a funnel for
such requests.
I wonder what others think about an idea long these lines? That might
facilitate better communication from the forums to other avenues and
integrate them without the need for technological integration.
Jim Henderson wrote:
> I wonder what others think about an idea long these lines? That might
> facilitate better communication from the forums to other avenues
i’ve suggested here that the next time ‘they’ release a kernel which
breaks graphic drivers, sound systems, the ability to shutdown, the
ability to boot, the ability to connect via wireless etc etc that we
here just send all those with problems to the mail lists for
repair/support…
i’d expect we might then get some much needed attention to detail when
running out kernels…
) were to offer to mentor one person, and you 1/4 of the mentors somebody to help isn’t that still an increase in active participants and reduction of the free-loader?