OpenSuse... No Offense but ARE you Nuts?

English Soapbox
1

Please forgive my crass use of English here.

OpenSuse developers and Novell — I have just installed OpenSuse 11.3 -I have been a User since 7.x and I have to ask ARE YOU NUTS? Where is SaX2? Where is an X config utility in Yast??? THE** MOST** important thing in the GUI is being able to SEE what in the ()%^(&! one is doing!

HELLO???: my monitor could not handle the default resolution your install decided upon… BLANK SCREEN!! I had to change monitors – hello the text is micro text – hello why do I have to jump through hoops to configure X to my monitor and my eyeball?

You may find me in one of the other distributions until you get a clue!

2

Do you want any help or have you already jumped ship?
openSUSE Graphic Card Practical Theory Guide for Users

3

I just spent 3 hours fixing my screen from going back to the default resolution.

I agree that the tools should have been maintained, since Linux obviously hasn’t gotten to the point where the DE can reliably choose the right resolution and maintain it across reboots. This causes one to drop back to editing config files, which was unnecessary when SaX2 and the X11 config YaST applet was there in earlier versions.

4

There have been lots of debate on the removal of sax2. In short Novell/SuSE-GmbH noted given the massive changes taking place in Xorg, together with an ongoing and increasing number of graphic hardware devices on the market, they could no longer maintain sax2. Already for many users (in openSUSE-11.1 and 11.2) sax2 no longer functioned. Novell/SuSE-GmbH asked for volunteers from the community to take over sax2 maintenance, noting if some came forward they would continue to include sax2. The call for programmer help mostly went unanswered. Ergo, there was NO ONE to maintain sax2.

So sax2 was dropped. Not without debate, but it was dropped.

Now graphics across Linux wide, and not just openSUSE, is in a massive traditional change, as the need for a traditional ‘xorg.conf’ file has been dropped !! and instead Xorg is supposed to automatically detect and configure one’s graphics (with KMS being used). Although as you have discovered, this does not always work properly. In addition there is a shift amongst all distributions (including openSUSE) to shift from using HAL to UDEV for automatic hardware identification and configuration (I hope I have those terms correct) which given its relative maturity (or lack there of) has added another risk to the possibility that one’s graphics will not be properly identified.

A classic example of an Xorg change is the use of KMS, and the fact that some Linux distributions (and not just openSUSE) when booting will go to a BLACK SCREEN after (or at the start of) the install, unless one specifies “nomodeset” as a boot code. This IS documented in the openSUSE-11.3 release notes for those who care to read this.

As a result of the above changes, a number of us on the forum have been making a community effort to help those who are afflicted by problems due to this change in graphics in Linux (and not just openSUSE). As caf4926 pointed out, a guide (which I need to update even more) is here: openSUSE Graphic Card Practical Theory Guide for Users

in addition, specific to openSUSE-11.3 (although there is information for earlier openSUSE versions) there is a wiki guide here: SDB:Configuring graphics cards - openSUSE where that has steps as to how one can attempt to deal with the symptoms you encountered.

I hope that explanation helps clarify what has been happening with the latest Linux distribution releases (and not ‘just’ openSUSE).

Cheers !

5

Hi cmonster3,

I’m installing different Linux distributions and usually have either no problem or the same problem with all of them - if we’re talking about monitors and graphic cards issue. As explained in oldcpu’s post above, xorg has ‘evolved’ drastically and there are a couple tricks you have to learn - and people here are willing to explain to you kindly - in order to avoid BLACK SCREEN or other inconveniences.

6

cmonster3 wrote:
> You may find me in one of the other distributions until you get a clue!

Have a lot of fun!
and try to grow up a little before you come back–slamming the door
like that is SO juvenile!

–
DenverD
When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]

7

cmonster3 wrote:

>
> Please forgive my crass use of English here.
>
> OpenSuse developers and Novell — I have just installed OpenSuse 11.3
> -I have been a User since 7.x and I have to ask ARE YOU NUTS? Where is
> SaX2? Where is an X config utility in Yast??? THE* MOST* important
> thing in the GUI is being able to SEE what in the ()%^(&! one is doing!

I do agree that the direction of xorg right now doesn’t mean we no longer
need a helper tool. It does a pretty good job at guessing things but there
are WAY too many variables and WAY too many monitors and things that lie
(sorry, but they do) with regards to the information they report back.

>
>
> HELLO??!??: my monitor could not handle the default resolution your
> install decided upon… BLANK SCREEN!! I had to change monitors – hello
> the text is micro text – hello why do I have to jump through hoops to
> configure X to my monitor and my eyeball?

There might be more than just a resolution issue. The newer xorg is trying
a lot of new things… and it’s just not as compatible with everything.

>
> You may find me in one of the other distributions until you get a clue!

Your choice. I think your issues are solvable (not with any kind of update,
but just with some workarounds). Again, AFAIK, the blame does NOT belong
with openSUSE if with anyone at all. Like all free software, it evolves and
sometimes it regresses. IMHO, this is a time of great growth xorg wise and
there are some regressions. Yes… some things are fixed… and yes, things
will probably get better in future xorg releases inside of future openSUSE
releases. But if you think another distro gets it right… it probably
does, either because they chose to stay behind… or they’re running
slightly newer versions of some of these rapidly evolving pieces.

Regardless… I do think we’ll always need a tool that makes it easy to
override the guesses by xorg and whatever driver is being used.

8

cmonster3 wrote:
> Please forgive my crass use of English here.

sorry, but i can’t forgive the way you enter our forum, call us “nuts”
and tell us to “get a clue”…

that is to say: you didn’t ask for help, you simply abused us and
slammed the door as you departed…

we understand frustration occurs when dealing with the plethora of
changes which typifies open source software today…,but, i personally
(not speaking for those you broad brush insulted) can’t understand how
a person old enough to have used SuSE 7.x can have so little patience
or willingness to attack the bugs in the current system and not
simply attack the people included in “OpenSuse developers and Novell”,
by name.

you are therefore not forgiven (by me) for making that smearing attack!

> OpenSuse developers and Novell — I have just installed OpenSuse 11.3
> -I have been a User since 7.x and I have to ask ARE YOU NUTS? Where is
> SaX2? Where is an X config utility in Yast??? THE* MOST* important
> thing in the GUI is being able to SEE what in the ()%^(&! one is doing!

the answers to all of those questions are easy to find by anyone
willing and able to use either Google or our forum’s advanced search
page…

the answers are also available to those who come here refusing to
search for answers in our wiki, forum or documentation and ask for
help–because those who ASK for help almost always get it, in spades…

but, since this is your first post and you didn’t ask for help then i
have to assume you don’t want help, you just wanted to insult us and
slam the door…

> HELLO??!??: my monitor could not handle the default resolution your
> install decided upon… BLANK SCREEN!! I had to change monitors – hello
> the text is micro text – hello why do I have to jump through hoops to
> configure X to my monitor and my eyeball?

i do not think the answer that particular question already exists in
our forum, so i’ll try time to provide one, here:

not seeking or following the correct instructions will lead to the
extreme frustration you seem to have experienced and that often causes
some with little patience or understanding to “jump through hoops”
both needlessly and fruitlessly…

unfortunately, and sadly your hoop jumping could have been avoided had
you found and followed the already provided information which clearly
explains how to change resolutions, text size, video drivers, etc etc
etc…

> You may find me in one of the other distributions until you get a clue!

i think you can still find distros lagging in their release cycle
which do not yet include the ‘advances’ in automatic detection of
hardware vis-à-vis the X-windows server which causes the unavoidable
need to seek and follow the new way (the post SaX2 and YaST way) to
find Linux desktop happiness…

enjoy those trailing distros while you can–and join me in hoping that
just around the corner lurks the ‘advances’ which causes all hardware
to “just work”, right out of the box, with no need to Google, read or
even think.

that will be a great (and frustration relieving) day!

–
DenverD
When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]

9

Please, it is a community that will effort the most to try answer all our users in trouble.

Please keep the respect or choose another distro, and dont bother who likes and enjoy OpenSUSE and we(Linux Distro, Windows & Mac users) prefer people that (Linux Distro, Windows & Mac) is respectful, just keep it in mind before write something gorgeous like crass use of english and then insult us that way!!

10

You may find me in one of the other distributions until you get a clue!

LOL I don’t think so, but thanks for the entertainment, haven’t laughed that much since the kdz were teens.

11

I’ve locked this thread on the WEB side, pending its move to Soapbox area of our forum. The move appears appropriate given the original poster did not repost asking for the guidance that likely would have easily sorted his graphical problems.

I ask that NNTP users do NOT reply to this thread, but rather reply to the Soapbox version of the thread, once its in place. You will know the Soapbox version is in place, when I reply to the new thread location.

Also, I ask that users provide positive comments in such a thread and hang any insulting criticisms outside the door. We want to have a friendly community, not one where users are less than civil toward each other. I know I may be the pot calling the kettle black here, but we are all (even myself) trying our best here, despite the occasional lapse.

Thankyou. Again, wait until the post is moved and I’ve replied indicating its ok to post again.

12

This thead is now open again in Soap box for both WEB based and NNTP users to post. Original thread was here: http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-help-here/applications/447870-opensuse-no-offense-but-you-nuts.html. Below is the original post, and one of the replies to the post:

With respect to replying to posts in this thread, I ask that users provide positive comments in such a thread and hang any insulting criticisms outside the door. We want to have a friendly community, not one where users are less than civil toward each other. I know I may be the pot calling the kettle black here, but we are all (even myself) trying our best here.

My hope is any Soap Box discussion will center around the need for a graphical configuration tool, and positively point out what can be done currently and possibly point out positively what other distributions are doing. Again, please leave any insulting comments away from this forum.

Thank you.

13

I am thankfull I didn’t upgrade to 11.3. While I understand the issue of evolution of software, what I am seeing through comments about the changes clearly indicates that not just openSUSE is being derailed! The four fundamental pieces that absolutely must be fully functional in any system beyond the CLI are Keyboard, Mouse, Screen, and Filesystem. Looking over the posts going back as far as to 11.3 milestone introduction, we have about 14 keyboard fail posts, 263 mouse related failures, 1246 Screen related failures, and 8 Filesystem related failures. My quick analysis was not through, I did not open threads to see what the failures were or if they were indeed failures or resolved. Scanning what I could of 11.1 posts on same criteria gave 4 keyboard, 31 mouse, 58 Screen, 3 Filesystem while 11.2 resulted in 4 keyboard, 42 mouse, 118 Screen, and 4 filesystem.
As so many Windows jumpers have complained about trying Linux (any flavor) to get away from the one choice fits all mentality of that OS and not being comfortable with the difficulties encountered just getting the basic hardware KMSF working in the various distributions and versions, I ponder how wise it is to keep slugging forward with new release after new release without resolving current issues brought up by forum members not by work arround temporary solution but by real programmatic lockdown.
Where is the roadmap? (maybe developers of today no longer use one) In the past there was always a roadmap that explained a few key things about a system component. Those things were (list of files with purpose of same, list of setting values with purpose of same, and list of helper apps and what they handled), but admittedly I have not found since leaving RedHat and Mandrake of circa 2000 such details. Working from memory only here, in Mandrake 9 there was kbdconfig (utility to set keyboard localization) drakekey (mandrake utility for same), mouseconfig and Drakemouse, modemconfig and drakemodem, linuxconfig (which brought all CLI utilities under one umbrella), harddrake (which kinda resembles YAST functionality), xconfig, monitorconfig, and netconfig. True we have most of this but this is the part that made fixing easier: In my Mandrake system there was a file called overview and it’s companion file settingview. Overview contained a list of keyboard, mouse, video, filesystem, modem, sound, and network categories. In each category was listed all the setting files associated with each device and all helper apps that affected each device. Settingview contained a list of all setting files as categories and the settings with explanation for purpose. And there was one more CLI program which brought it all together which was makoverview. This single program and it’s two files comprised an automated thing of the old programmers roadmap. When Mandrake became mandriva and RedHat forked to fedora, the manual and automated roadmaps vanished.
Your not developers here but I hope you understand how good information is imperative if you want to maintain system critical components especially when thing are changed so radically. I liked the automated roadmap because if a piece of hardware got misconfiged, I could launch emacs with the roadmap files and see what the settings were and where I needed to change them and what program to use to effect the changes.

14

You may find me in one of the other distributions until you get a clue!

Thats the advantage of Linux: If you find one distro is giving you problems you are free to go to another distro.

I myself have never had to use sax2 because I found that the automatic configuration works fine.

15

There is no doubt that 11.3 has its problems, … but I also note every other openSUSE Linux version (and indeed every other Linux distribution version) had/has its problems, dependant on whom one talks to.

Often the posts noting a Linux distro does not work end up as rants, where the user encountered a bug in the installation, which was either documented in the Release Note (with the bug fix noted) or simply a bug that many on the forum could provide the work around to fix, and the user would be back on the rails with a functioning system. But in their frustration, the user could not be bothered to post once, nor look at the release note. … Now thats not always the case, but I have seen it often.

I have never seen agreement (complete agreement) on what bugs are acceptable and what are not. Someone who criticisizes distribution-a version-3 and says its bugs are unacceptable may say distribution-a version-2 was good. But someone else will have a completely different opinion. IMHO these sorts of views are always subjective, and 99% of the time the critical views come from those who have done absolutely NOTHING to support a Linux distribution. IMHO its only once one starts to contribute, that one has a better perspective of the difficulties involved.

Having typed that, I definitely sympathasize with ALL users who had frustrations in installing ANY Linux distribution (and not just openSUSE). If those users would ‘just’ post asking for help, I know in many cases there will be many who try to help, as volunteers, giving up their own time, for free, with nothing (NOTHING) in return except the self gratification that comes from seeing someone else succeed.

I won’t be dragged into an argument that there should be no such thing as a released OS with bugs, because I dont’ disagree, but I also have never yet (not once) seen a Linux nor a MacIntosh nor a Windows OS released that did not have bugs, where for some people (not all) these bugs were blocking, irritating, and enough to put them OFF that OS completely.

Hence IMHO its important we try to rise above this, and do what we can with the tools that we have available.

In this case, and specific to this thread, and NOT off topic, as I noted, the graphics NOT JUST for openSUSE-11.3, but for EVERY major Linux distribution is in flux, with

  • the change from HAL to UDEV and with
  • the removal of xorg.conf and automatic configuration now by Xorg software, together with
  • the introduction of KMS in the kernel.
    All these factors together have lead to a situation where one’s graphics for all hardware ‘may’ not be configured as easily as one has seen in the past.

This has meant one now see’s an /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/ directory with separate files for the device, screen, monitor, etc … which used to be before all combined in the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file. And the idea now for graphics is that 1st the auto config of X should work, 2nd if the auto config of X does not work then an edit to a file in the /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/ directory should work, and IF that does not work, then one can try an /etc/X11/xorg.conf file (using an old file, or generating a new file either by hand, or with the appropriate tool). And yes, despite the elimination of what was almost a non-functional sax2 (because the community refused to support it by taking it over from Novell/SuSE-GmbH) there are other tools (albeit none of them are as nice as what sax2 once was).

I agree it would be useful to have an openSource tool for open source graphic drivers that does something similar to what sax2 does, and that is better than the " Xorg -configure " method. This IMHO needs to be a Linux wide tool, and not just a “sax2” openSUSE only replacement where the entire weight of the developement and maintenance is held by one distribution. Rather a large effort across ALL Linux distributions is the only way IMHO such a tool will succeed.

But one mitigating factor, which most users on a rant about graphics simply fail to do, is boot their PCs to the liveCD that practically every Linux distribution provides, and see how graphics fair with the liveCD. That is NO guarantee, but it does provide an indication if an open source driver has a reasonable probability of working in one’s hardware. We have not always had liveCDs to do such tests. We had no such liveCDs for SuSE-7.x. We had no such liveCDs for SuSE-8.x We had no such liveCDs for SuSE-9.x.

Having such liveCDs to test in advance is a MAJOR advance.

… just my 2 cents. …

And thankyou to everyone in advance for keeping this thread civil.

Again, I ask everyone to hang any insulting criticisms at the door, and be as civil and as polite and as positive as possible in this thread.

16

techwiz03 wrote:
> … I ponder how wise it is to keep slugging forward with new
> release after new release without resolving current issues brought up by
> forum members not by work arround temporary solution but by real
> programmatic lockdown.

not that i don’t agree with you (i do, i’m STILL on 10.3 hoping
someone soon will wake up and produce a stable, reliable and usable
release)…

but, until then i have to mention that forum users may find every
single bug in 11.3 and we here may help find some kind of work around…

but, that does absolutely ZERO toward getting a programmatic solution
(bug squash) because openSUSE developers almost NEVER come to these
fora, and if/when they do it is NOT to sift for bugs that need attention…

if forum users get a workaround and do not LOG a bug, the same bug is
very likely to be carried forward until forever…or until someone
with the time, inclination and ability to type a bug report actually
does so.

maybe one of the best things the folks in this forum could do is NOT
give a work around until the bug is logged…

–
DenverD
When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]

17

If you wish to get the attention of the SuSE-GmbH packagers of openSUSE then it is very easy to do so. Simply post on the mailing lists, or write a bug report. One typically gets IMMEDIATE attention.

In the “SuSE” scheme of things, the forums are relatively new, and were created from outside of SuSE-GmbH by community members (where the mailing lists and bugzilla were created and driven from inside SuSE-GmbH). There may come a time when the “critical mass” of the forums is such that the mailing lists are abandoned for the forums, but we are not there yet. I’m not sure if we will ever be (at that ‘critical mass’). I don’t even know what that level might be.

But I do know if I want to get a SuSE-GmbH packagers attention, it is not difficult. Its easy (follow the link to the mailing lists and bugzilla).

18

This is true, … unless of course a non-forum user stumbles across the same bug and raises a bug report.

Many times I have found what looks to be a bug, found a work around, and then debated with my lazy self for days, trying to think of a reason NOT to spend the time to write a bug report. Fortunately, my lazy self typically loses, and after what is usually less than a week, I write the bug report. … But its not the writing of the bug report that takes the time, … its the subsequent support that goes along with the writing, monitoring the bug report and feeding the SuSE-GmbH packager (assigned to the bug) with the information they request, so as to help them solve the bug report. … Knowing the effort there, I think I tend to be far too lazy. That reluctance/laziness is one of my devils (and unfortunately I have many) that I constantly have to face down.

19

Resources for openSUSE are stretched thin over at Novell, witness the demise of the “repair” facility in the DVD. There is no one with the time to keep the “repair” facility repaired. So prioritisation goes on and inevitably some bugs do persist from one distro to the next; e.g. VNC server hasn’t worked without workarounds since 11.0 arrived.And VMware server hasn’t worked without workarounds since maybe 2 years ago. And RDP wouldn’t be working without Malcolm to make the RPMs. And on and on and on…

I (nearly) always encourage folks to write bug reports where I think a bug might exist – but also: One of the really useful things we do IMHO is to create workarounds, without them so much would not work.

20

oldcpu wrote:

> In the “SuSE” scheme of things, the forums are relatively new, and
> were created from outside of SuSE-GmbH by community members (where the
> mailing lists and bugzilla were created and driven from inside
> SuSE-GmbH). There may come a time when the “critical mass” of the
> forums is such that the mailing lists are abandoned for the forums,
> but we are not there yet. I’m not sure if we will ever be (at that
> ‘critical mass’). I don’t even know what that level might be.

I don’t think it’s about a “critical mass” - if it was, we’re already
there. Webfora are, in my humble opinion, just not practical and
efficient, and will never replace the mailing list. The NNTP interface
we have for the openSUSE fora is okay, but not perfect.

–
Per Jessen, Zürich (9.2°C)
http://en.opensuse.org/User:pjessen