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#21

Surely its more time and energy trying to maintain software.opensuse.org, the package manager repos, the yast app itself and apper. We should be able to get ourselves into a situation where we only need one tool to rule them all.

In any case, Apper is not included with openSUSE (at least on my version) so would be useless for the beginner. There is not enough coherency between the various apps.

Finally, I hope we’re not becoming a recipe company like Apple is, trying to compile all the best ‘stuff’ from third parties and selling it off as their own. At least the Ubuntu and Linux Mint organisations have actually tried something new and innovative, regarding the Cinnamon and Unity environments (not that I’m a fan of Debian-based distros though).

#22

It is included with openSUSE. The beginner needs a desktop environment. If KDE is installed, then Apper is installed.

#23

+1

Apper is part of KDE and is installed by default.

#24

Just saw a few screenshots of Apper (not at the desktop currently), looks pretty good from what I can see. So, can anyone fathom why it isn’t the only tool installed by default? Why do we still have the YaST tools? No matter how good the tools are they are worthless if they are duplicated across the system. Why can’t we take the best of both and bung them into one app? ATM it seems incredibly unprofessional to me.

#25

YaST isn’t just to install software. That’s but one module. There are many such modules that make up YaST. It seems to me, that you don’t know or understand YaST. You should put some time and research in. Then if you still have questions, you can ask and they’ll be a lot better suited.

#26

I was referring to the software management app in YAST, not the rest of it.

#27

On 2013-07-04 19:56, Paspie wrote:
> In any case, Apper is not included with openSUSE (at least on my
> version) so would be useless for the beginner.

Apper is a KDE tool, and it is installed by default if you install KDE.
If you install Gnome you get a simpler but similar tool.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 “Dartmouth” at Telcontar)

#28

On 2013-07-04 14:16, Paspie wrote:
>
> Yeah, but my point is we shouldn’t have to remove features to make it
> easier for beginners. Having separate applications seems like an
> after-thought to me, and by combining the YAST Software Manager toolset
> and say, the aesthetics and layout of the ‘software center’ type app, we
> can remove fragmentation and make life easier for developers and package
> managers.

I do not like that idea at all, it would be a huge mistake.

YaST should stay as it is, a very good, stable, feature rich, package
manager. You can add a separate web tool to find the appropriate
application for your need, and then trigger yast or apper or oneclick to
do the actual installation. An extension of the OBS search frontend.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 “Dartmouth” at Telcontar)

#29

On 2013-07-05 01:06, Paspie wrote:
>
> Just saw a few screenshots of Apper (not at the desktop currently),
> looks pretty good from what I can see. So, can anyone fathom why it
> isn’t the only tool installed by default?

Because it is a TERRIBLE tool. Many of us hate apper and remove it from
our systems as soon as we can. >:-)

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 “Dartmouth” at Telcontar)

#30

YaST has an excellent software manager tool, there’s no reason to replace it. If something like Apper can compliment it, that’s fine. Once you understand how it works, you’ll appreciate YaST much more. Apper is designed for simplicity, and loses many features in doing so.

#31

That’s exactly what I mean. Why do we have it when the stuff that ships with YAST is already adequate. Are you getting it? I have been using it and similar types of tools pretty much since my first foray into Linux-based OSes and found few issues. Complimentary apps such as Apper are a waste of time. If they don’t work for everyone, don’t install them by default. It’s that simple.

Anyway, I’ve kinda run dry of ammunition, I am just eager to break new mould rather than just evolution all the time.

#32

And you still don’t get it. :wink: It’s not adequate for all users and all situations. YaST is an excellent tool for system administrators of multi-user systems, and for single-user machines where the user either enjoys spending time on system administration tasks, has many issues to solve, or just prefers it. However, YaST does not provide the general user with a desktop notifier for available package updates, the main reason why Apper arrived in KDE and openSUSE.

Personally, I am very pleased to have both Apper and YaST available. I’ve used Apper (notifier and updater) to install all of its package updates on my 12.2 and 12.3 systems, and it hasn’t dropped the ball. I don’t need YaST for that job, and prefer the convenience of Apper where it doesn’t require Authentication for me to update my system.

As Jonathan_R suggested, “You should put some time and research in”.

#33

But it was YOU who said, Apper looks fine, and why not get rid of YaST!>:)

Apper/PackageKit was designed as cross-distribution tool from the start, that’s an advantage and a disadvantage at the same time:
Advantage: bigger userbase, it looks the same on all distributions, users (who come from other distros) are already familiar with it…
Disadvantage: can’t support all the details of the specific distribution because it has to use the lowest common denominators of all distros

Where as YaST->Software Management was designed specificly for openSUSE (libzypp in particular), so it supports (nearly) everything that libzypp can do and PackageKit not like f.e. Package locks and Dependency conflict resolution.

Isn’t it great that you can choose among several tools for the same tasks, and use that one that best fits your needs/peculiarities?:wink:

#34

On 2013-07-05 11:46, Paspie wrote:

>That’s exactly what I mean. Why do we have it when the stuff that ships
> with YAST is already adequate. Are you getting it?

Because one of the features of Linux is choice.

We don’t have one tool for each task, we have as many as we can. Why
don’t we have just one desktop only, ie, LXDE? That should suffice for
everybody, it does everuthing we require. But wait, no, we also have
XFCE, with more features and a larger memory footprint. Ah, yes, there
is also Gnome. Oh, wait, there is also, whats its name… ah, KDE -
they’d kill me if I forget that one. >:-)

There is CHOICE.

So, people like me use YaST. Or zypper, or even RPM! Some prefer apper,
because it automatically installs updates without requiring the admin
password.

Choice.

Besides, apper is not done by openSUSE, it is an external tool,
cross-distro. openSUSE does just a few libraries to connect it with
libzyp, and hooks in libzyp perhaps. Many distros have apper, why should
we not have it?

> Anyway, I’ve kinda run dry of ammunition, I am just eager to break new
> mould rather than just evolution all the time.

You want an app market? Go ahead, do it. There is freedom, anybody can
do what he likes. Just do it, support it, and maybe people will flock to
it. Or maybe not. :slight_smile:

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 “Dartmouth” at Telcontar)

#35

I cannot agree more! This is why we have the greatest flame wars in the universe. And I must admit I like that.

I prefer vi by the way ;).

#36

On 2013-07-05 22:46, kalten wrote:
>
> robin_listas;2569596 Wrote:
>>
>>
>> …]
>> Because one of the features of Linux is choice.
>>
>> …]
>
> I cannot agree more! This is why we have the greatest flame wars in the
> universe. And I must admit I like that.
>
> I prefer vi by the way ;).

ROTFL!

me, Word Star :-p

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 12.3 x86_64 “Dartmouth” at Telcontar)

#37

On 07/05/2013 10:46 PM, kalten wrote:
> I prefer vi by the way;).

only a professional flame catcher would make such a statement!

truly bright folks use mc, by the way! :wink:

–
dd

#38

Gee. I thought bright folks used Emacs.

#39

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 18:56:02 +0000, Jonathan R wrote:

> Gee. I thought bright folks used Emacs.

Nah, only people who love overly complex stuff. [scnr]

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#40

Yeah Apper is quite sub par.
I rather have something like Muon or Yumex
And yes I am using Fedora right now, why do you ask? :smiley: