OpenSUSE 11.0 is horrible!

Hi,

I’ve to post my opinion (and hope, that I feel better then):

I using OpenSUSE for my Desktop systems, because I think OpenSUSE have the focus on such systems. Now - in the beginning of my linux journey (2000) some “linux experts” say to me, that every suse version with an even number behind the dot is an unstable version - now, that’s sadly true and 11.0 doesn’t made an exception! 10.3 runs really good and stable (10.2 wasn’t really the best one …) and 11.0 is horrible. Because I need my “production” system for “real” work, I installed 11.0 first in an virtual maschine and do my default settings. Means:
Add repositorys for mozilla, X and some others and configure the openSUSE Updater for offer non security related updates.

Now… the updater show me updates - fine. When I tell him, that they should do install this updates, they do nothing. The goes directly back to the previous state (see bug: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=399661).
Okay - I goes the way, go via yast, “Online-Update” and select the updates. Now… yast tells me, they have an update which need first an restart before more update can be done. Well, it’s ok - i confirm this message but see, they install NO package but show me an restart window. I restart - the same again…

Hey guys, imho an working base system is very important and such bugs are really bothersome. Is it so important, that the release date match exactly or nearly the roadmap date for an release? Is an stable version not more important? When you look at bug report https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=399661, you’ll see - the problem is known before the final release are tagged but this bug doesn’t block the release. Why? When I install an final release, I expect that the base system works nearly without any error.

Small bugs are “normal” (shouldn’t be but thats reality) and the reality shows also, it’s never possible, reach 100% for something, but more quality and an minimum of “usability” for an typical workday use can expected, or?

prodigy7

su -c “zypper up -t package”

Problem solved.

I don’t look for an solution, I want denounce the quality of this software release :wink:
And the other side: That’s a workaround… If the delivered software would do their job, that wouldn’t be necessary.

prodigy7 had his/her rant, so now I’m going to have mine back!

Too many people are complaining about how “Suse 11.0 is horrible” or “…broken…” or “…unusable”. Rubbish!

I’ve been using Linux for nearly 12 years now, and since 2005, I have been almost exclusively Suse. I now have 3 machines of my own, and support another 6. All are either Suse 10.3 or 11.0. I rarely use Windows (2k or XP) other than for testing webpages or documents that have to be in Word or Excel. I use Ubuntu/Kubuntu 6.10 & 8.04 as backup for myself and have 5 users I support.

During all my experience, and with every version of every distro I have tried, and with every major release, something has been badly broken with the initial release. With Suse it has mainly been each major upgrade of YaST. With 10.0 it was almost unusable, but got fixed. With 11.0 it has been annoying, but now that it is fixed, this release is a big improvement.

On my Acer latop, the screen resolution worked “out of the box”. I tried Fedora 8, and Ubuntu 8.04 and a couple of others and they all needed hand tuning. On a Dell Optiplex it only needed to be told which Dell monitor was connected. The Dell is a recylced ex-corporate machine with a very basic BIOS, which won’t report any of the hardware properly. Installing Windows XP on it was a REAL nightmare.

The wifi (ndiswrapper & XP drivers for the INPROCOMM IPN2220) was easy. Ndiswrapper was installed by default, and had a GUI to install the driver. I did an upgrade from 10.3 to 11.0 on the Dell mentioned above, and it picked up everything, and rebooted with the wifi active at the end of the upgrade!

The moral of this story is that openSuse is the Community version. WE are the tech support and R&D. WE test things, feedback to developers, and try out the fixes. openSuse is FREE!

If you want to make sure you have the most stable version then don’t use the first release. Watch the forum and wait for it to become stable, then upgrade. Don’t try out the first version and come here and complain when it doesn’t work, and then brush off any help that is offered. This forum is for people who either, want help, or want to help.

End of rant!

So far I really like Suse 11.0. There are still some faults. In the last 2 weeks, I think I have had about 4 YaST patches, and a new kernel, but it is basically much more stable than previous first releases. I am running it on an Acer TravelMate 2304 (4 years old), a generic AMD Athlon 1.4Ghz with NVidia internal graphics (6 yrs old), and 2 Dell Optiplex GX260 with ATI graphics (both 4 yrs old, and donated to a charity. One has wired ethernet and the other wifi).

I’ve only tried Compiz on the laptop, but it works really well, dispite the basic Intel 855 chipset with no 3D. Several people have said “is that Vista?”, or “Is that one of the new Mac’s?”

I’m not going to have time to do it yet, but I intend to upgrade all my Suse boxes (and another laptop - Dell Inspiron 1300) to 11.0 by the end of the month.

Thread moved to Soapbox

prodigy7 wrote:

>
> Chrysantine;1836440 Wrote:
>> su -c “zypper up -t package”
>>
>> Problem solved.I don’t look for an solution, I want denounce the quality of
>> this
> software release :wink:
> And the other side: That’s a workaround… If the delivered software
> would do their job, that wouldn’t be necessary.
>
>

{Chuckle}

What was it Ghandi said?..

“First they ignore you,
Then they laugh at you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.”
-Mohandas Ghandi

Y’know, if it’s THAT terrible, please don’t use it. Return to your OS X, or
Windows, or AmigaDOS, ProDOS or whatever.

Wait… “prodigy7”??? As in ‘child prodigy’? or “I’m still using…” ?

Eh, never mind. You’re screaming about something that a serious majority of
us KNOW about, DEAL with, and while maybe don’t fully ACCEPT, we know things
will get better… not worse from here.

As a *.0 product, 11.0 is vastly superior to 10.0, in which the ‘revamped’
updater massively sucked… I discovered ‘smart’ for that fiasco. Yes, it
still has it’s hiccups, it’s epileptic fits, and the occasional brain dead
moments. But I CHOOSE to run OpenSuSE 11.0, and I’m learning new things
about it every day. Some good, some bad. I tried KDE4, really, I did… and
several hours later, when the shakes and cringing subsided, I made a mental
note to watch for a solid KDE4.1 release… and then set up my systems with
KDE3.5. Yup, I’ll agree, KDE4 suuuuucks… but it’s ALREADY better than it
was two weeks ago. and it’s the KDE4.0 you’re likely upset with. THAT’s
the .0 release. The .0-ness of OpenSuSE probably contributes a little bit to
that, but I’ve found the underlying system (that ‘below’ the KDE system) to
be quite solid and functional.

Of course, I’m an ‘old-school’ command-line freak too. I might have 5 windows
open at any given time… but odds are, more than one or two of those are
konsole’s. Often I can fix a problem in moments from the CLI, and be
clueless about how to fix it in the GUI.

I’d be more than happy to help you resolve ANY issues you’ve got with OpenSuSE
11.0… but you have to be openminded and accepting of some things too.

My father taught me long ago that simply stating that something was bad or
terrible or wrong… was insufficient. To have my criticisms be accepted, I
had to be able to show why I thought it was wrong, and provide a possible
solution, based on my knowledge at the time.

For now, you get added to the ignore-list for a few days, if you can come up
with some things that are broken, and possible solutions (based on your
knowledge), I’ll listen and help work out the issues. We’ll probably both
benefit.

Yes, I’m just one person. I don’t likely amount to anything really, this
community, or any others I participate in. You aren’t really anything to me
either… but I DO care, I would like to see you enjoying your computer
more. Now whether that’s through teaching you how to use OpenSuSE, OSX,
Windows, Solaris… I’ll help. Doesn’t matter which. But just screaming out
that a single instance of something not working causes everything to be
abysmal… that’s not right. Kinda like bitching because the oil-filler cap
was missing on a brand-new state-of-the-art, bleeding-edge technology car.
It’s fixable! (Yes, I realize this particular problem could be construed
as more like the oilpan drain plug being missing…but still)

{Sigh} Guess I got my ‘mad’ out… I apologize. I wasn’t mad because you
said my favorite operating system sucked… goodness, I agree on some points.
I was mad because your method of telling was inappropriate and possibly
overblown.

Respectfully,

Loni
lornix@lornix.com


L R Nix
lornix@lornix.com

In response to some of the comments, 10.0 had no problems with its package management. It was 10.1 where the disfunctional package management was introduced. 10.1 also was the first openSUSE, and it did away with proprietary drivers, which had a major impact on many users (especially wireless).

From what I recall, the biggest criticism of 10.0 was it was not a significant departure from 9.3.

When looking at the 10.0 criticisms (not enough change) and now 11.0 (too many (yast in this case) changes), there is a saying (not sure I can get the saying through the board filters, though), … it goes like:

dammed if you do and dammed if yo don’t. :smiley:

Interesting – They were a bit erratic with releases in those days. Which series of even numbered pre 2000 releases were the “linux experts” referring to? The series comprised of 4.2 and 5.2 perhaps? Or is there just a tiny drop of poetic hyperbole there?

Yes - right! But an final release should’nt contains bugs in this quality, mainly when an bug from the beta is known and a fix isn’t confirmed.

Does OpenSUSE not also focus the linux amateur group? Or why it have such an distinct desktop integration/features? Do I understand something wrong? I know linux/gnu very good, I know some distributions like debian (/ubuntu), gentoo, fedora - i’m not a linux beginner but when I install an desktop with their utility, I want use it! For working with console only, there are some other distributions which take not so much diskspace on my harddisk and time and do the same.

I see it very pragmatically: For what the alpha, beta and what ever version are released, when they are not used for an stable final release? Maybe I understand this phases wrong? If yes, make it easier: Doesn’t label new versions alpha or beta. The user would not have the expectations which are associated with such phases.

But another thing: It’s a fact, seen from my side and not an individual agression about someone. So it should be seen as a constructive critic and in this context discussed. Other people write also about the negative experience with 11.0 and so the question should be, is something wrong with the release process or with the user? In this context it is maybe also more interesting to know: Is there something which goes wrong or is it “normal” how it is and the errors, which the users reporting, can’t avoid? I’m not learn resistant (even if maybe some people here thing that) - so why i’m wrong with my concern?

This was exaggerated and is a memory of me of the past :wink: However - i would never believe, that unstable releases have a special rule (like the one, the people in the past tell) and if i would thing, that opensuse would be absolutly bad, i wouldn’t use it.
So please see this statement not as a accusation - I think “anecdote” would describe this statement best.

I’ve no time, simply trolling against opensuse. See my previous post - then my intention can may be better understand :wink:

I think the quality of a distribution is measured by more than just the distribution as packaged, but it is also measured by the quality of the community that supports it.

So while your rant can be acknowledged, I think it is only fair to also note you were quickly given a work around to the problem when you asked.

In the interest of over pursuing your point, you simply dismissed the provided solution. IMHO it illustrates you are only grinding an axe, and shows a perspetive that is FAR from being pragmatic.

That’s right, but the whole packaging/development process itself maybe can blend over the good work of the community. In principle opensuse is also my choice, because it have a big community. But, and that was also my previous question: Is the observance of the dates in the roadmap the reason why the errors can’t be fixed which are reported here in the community and bugtracker?

Okay - maybe I’ve a bad start and/or can’t express my real general intention. So - Chrysantine wasn’t wrong with their answere (I’m sorry :wink: ), only in the context i try to start an discussion.

Too many people get blinded by new distro releases and update without needing to. Anyone that’s worked with Linux should know that setting up a working desktop to your liking takes time and effort, but still people have that irrational urge to get the “latest and greatest” and be “one of the group”. My motto with Linux over the last five years, after having learned the hard way the previous five, is “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. I stayed with Mandrake 10.1 on my main PC long after support ceased and only installed openSUSE 10.2 a good year ago. It does everything I want and I have no desire to upgrade and go through the motions at this point. My backup box still runs SuSE 10.0 (no updates, no problems either). Normally I’d avoid x.0 releases, but 10.0 was an exception being the last old-feel SuSE. I’m more inclined to skip the uneven numbers anyway. Frankly, short distro release cycles are a bit of a sour point about Linux for me. Ubuntu has understood this with their LTS versions.

oldcpu wrote:
> In response to some of the comments, 10.0 had no problems with its
> package management. It was 10.1 where the disfunctional package
> management was introduced. 10.1 also was the first openSUSE, and it
> did away with proprietary drivers, which had a major impact on many
> users (especially wireless).
>
> From what I recall, the biggest criticism of 10.0 was it was not a
> significant departure from 9.3.

You mean like 9.0 wasn’t a significant departure from 8.2, right?
Perhaps you can look at the .0 releases as a foundation for building
on the next generation release (??).

10.3 isn’t horrible. There was a LOT of change from 10.0 to 10.3.
Things change, everyone wants the VERY LATEST… and that causes
some problems.

>
> When looking at the 10.0 criticisms (not enough change) and now 11.0
> (too many (yast in this case) changes), there is a saying (not sure I
> can get the saying through the board filters, though), … it goes
> like:
>
> dammed if you do and dammed if yo don’t. :smiley:

Linux (as a distro) isn’t finished yet… just doing VERY well
at it grows and matures. Ideally, it will never be complete… and
it will still continue to do VERY well.

You mean that horrible, worked sometimes and didn’t work any other time package, zmd? (zen-updater, zen-installer, etc). It worked for me sometimes in SuSE 10.2, I was thankful for zypper in 10.3.

I like the spice in here :slight_smile:
Many understand of what it’s about… and it’s NOT about having the perfect Windows replacement or untouchable mythic system… it’s a journey for something better in general & something that belongs to all of us and can be strengthened by all of us. Quoting Ghandi was a nice one Loni :wink: As it also holds true…

Anyway, the thing I find puts to much pressure on the releases is it’s set release cycle of 6 months. It seems it’s just a bit to steep to flatten out all the changes made before the final hits the streets.
On the other hand it’s also not good to depend on other running projects and set the release too fixed on that (like with KDE 4.1)
I do think a cycle of 8 to 9 months would give the developers just that bit more of time to complete and test their work.
More importantly it gives them more time to get the feedback from testers and early adopters & also be able to handle it all. That is at least the impression I got when running in the alpha/beta stage, too much to do, too little time.

As openSUSE gets more attention you also see the pressure going up at that end… Hats off to them (the devs) as also hats off for the produced 11.0 release.
It does have it’s caveats… but for me, I do see much progress & am loving it all the way. :slight_smile:

Hidy-Ho!! (and off went the seven dwarfs to work)

Cheers!
Wj

…and why aren’t we using SLED10SP2? That’s pretty stable, hmmm, no bugs…

I agree I think 8-9 months would be better.
You install an alpha and before you get to throughly check it…the next alpha is out. Myself I had a hard time keeping up with all the alpha and beta releases.

I think the Open Suse team has really done a nice job with this release. A lot of very nice improvements.

One thing to remember, a single Distro isn’t always going to work on every single computer out there.
And if it doesn’t match up with your hardware. That doesn’t mean it is horrible.
And you do usually have other options.

sid1950 nailed it. Every distro has some bugs.

openSUSE isn’t terrible, or unstable, or buggy. It is extremely stabled compared with other major OS releases.

And what prodigy7 is complaining about is nothing major.

I do my updates differently, so I never ran into this. But frankly, what he is describing is a mere inconvenience that doesn’t break the system, with working solutions immediately available.

If you find another OS or distro with fewer bugs on the intial release, then use it. However, it is my opinion that prodigy7’s expectations aren’t reasonable.

mister anderson said it.
¿why don’t you try the rock-stable sled-10-sp2?

i’ve been using it since june 2006 with no issues at all.
everything is not perfect (i know, there are some workarounds) but they are only a few, i can count them with my fingers…

or better yet, wait for SLED11 which i hope to buy/download by the end of the year…

<OF>