Initially I sort of thought yeah I can sort of see that, KDE is the preferred. But… The more I read, points raised…
Preference to Gnome due to placement WTF
Gnome is the Favourite Child (Mmm Mummy luvs you more than me)
We don’t give choices for text editor, Browser etc…etc… Relatively valid…
New users don’t know which DE to choose. (Mmm we seem to be seeing more and more people using the cd installs which decide the DE)
It was like watching 2 toddlers fighting over who had the better toy. The whole discussion seems to be based around “New Linux Users”. Which would seem to be a relatively small market going on the survey from last year and also presumes they’ve not seen linux or the 2 main DE’s, and are using the DVD not the livecd.
The biggest problem in take up of new users is that many on other distro’s do not favour Suse. Now this seems to be based on several things, prominently seems to be updates break the system. Proof in the pudding every time there is a new kernel update appears a thread all works fine here like we expect it to break. Then due to politics Suse does not enable easy install of multimedia playback or prop drivers at install like some other distro’s. So talking about making DE choices for the new user is really missing the common complaints new users have.
My solution stick Other at the top but then they’ll be some debate on who should go next.
that won’t be easy as two of the three founding GNOME zealots (Miguel “ZOMG, MS software and programming languages FTW! .NET pwnes ya all” de Crapcaza and Nat “I’m teh nephew of Brad Dourif” Friedman) work for Novell and thus Novell is biased towards it. There’s lots of lobbying from them on the inside
Yesterday I was reading a thread published in the recently announced openSUSE Weekly News. It was started by Zonker and was all about making KDE the default at install, with a strong commitment to become KDE distro once again. Zonker was against the author of the openFate request, and with others joining in, it was heating up with some good points on both sides.
Unfortunately I cannot provide reference to it since:
Error establishing a database connection
Maybe it was pulled. Novell wouldn’t have liked it for sure.
My views changed with the counter arguments. On balance, and for the sake of the distro, sidelining gnome would be brave but also the smart marketing strategy. It would bring focus to the obvious weakness resulting from battling on too many fronts. Now where have I come across that in the history of 20C? :\
> Yesterday I was reading a thread published in the recently announced
> openSUSE Weekly News. It was started by Zonker and was all about making
> KDE the default at install, with a strong commitment to become KDE
> distro once again. Zonker was against the author of the openFate
> request, and with others joining in, it was heating up with some good
> points on both sides.
> Unfortunately I cannot provide reference to it since: > Error establishing a database connection
> Maybe it was pulled. Novell wouldn’t have liked it for sure.
> My views changed with the counter arguments. On balance, and for the
> sake of the distro, sidelining gnome would be brave but also the smart
> marketing strategy. It would bring focus to the obvious weakness
> resulting from battling on too many fronts. Now where have I come across
> that in the history of 20C? :
Would this be the article? http://www.dissociatedpress.net/2009/07/31/does-opensuse-need-a-default-desktop/
Not really none of them give a strong reason for doing it like you I was swayed for a moment… Then I though wtf this actually is going to make sod all difference.
What a bit of sugar to make the kde devs feel loved after being chopped to bits… Mmm how about re-employing them. Then the counter argument going to lose Gnome devs err what! when Sled/Sles afaik as I know is still very gnome centric.
Its confusing for the newbie! What and having the livecd boot to black screen isn’t, or sticking a dvd in and it doesn’t play or trying to use KDE with out updating xine or adding some other gstreamer plugin to play MP3 isn’t, or trying to get some wireless which needs a prop driver isn’t etc.etc.
Seriously they need to consider they’re priorities and dragging up the old gnome and KDE argument is not where they lie. 11.* seriously has not been received in the most favourable light and changing some default setting isn’t going to change that.
I started with 9.3 and TBH that is what Suse was to me and should be now it was dependable, no perhaps it wasn’t the latest but it worked. It didn’t feel like some test distro, some people actually pay for Opensuse, so all these arguments its free don’t hold much it also is supposed to be semi-commercial.
This is so few people we’re talking about the survey came back with 6% that is new users, then of them you have to equate to DVD installs then add not seen a linux DE or either of KDE or Gnome this figure is minuscule.
Funny thing about this whole subject is the reaction it will draw if it is passed.
Say for instance it is decided to set KDE as the “default”. What then? Will there then be an openFATE suggestion to make KDE 3.5.10 the default KDE b/c “ZOMG!1! KDE4 is teh suck!!one!”? I’m sure there will be. Will there be a topic about reverting the decision? Yes. Will there be a topic about switching the decision and make gnome the “default”? Yes.
If a decision is made to make KDE the default, the users are no better or worse off than when they started. KDE, GNOME, XFCE, and all of the other DE’s all do their job equally well. The perceived benefits of setting one as “default” (I still haven’t figured out what that’s supposed to mean) could be considered benefits of setting any of the other ones default as well.
Sure, “new linux users” won’t have to make a decision and it will be a little easier on them, but what about after that? They’ll need to make a tough decision eventually; shall we continue to try and shield them and set more arbitrary defaults? How far does this go? Eventually it could get to the point where the developers will make all of the decisions, ultimately taking choice away from the users. And at that point, openSUSE becomes a clone of Windows.
I admit that logic is a little flawed, but my point is the argument itself is pointless. I think many new linux users are more intelligent than what most people think, and the description of the different DEs on the DVD atm are sufficient to help them make a decision. And this doesn’t even become a problem if a user downloads a LiveCD.
For as heated as this discussion has become, the target users that benefit most from it are in a minority to begin with (a statistically proven fact). I am not advocating discouragement towards new Linux users, but they aren’t the only ones that deserve attention by developers, nor do they deserve the most attention. Improvements in other areas will benefit new Linux users (such as updates that don’t break things). Setting a DE as default won’t provide much of a benefit over what is currently in place.
I agree about the priorities. For starters they need to find solutions to the shortfalls you mention, in particular multimedia, opensuse xorg performance, drivers, h/w support, etc. However you seem to be ignoring the fact that priorities and resources are directly linked. Resources were discussed in the news thread. The point was made that extra resources would not be forthcoming. Something has to go, in order to resource the fixing of the issues. KDE is evolving at a fast pace, Gnome isn’t. KDE is a control freak’s DE, Gnome is a control freak. Where would you concentrate the effort?
The argument about the “default” is just symbolic. I don’t believe this is an argument about KDE vs Gnome. At the moment, as Zonker pointed out in the article, openSUSE is positioned as “the distro offering choice”. Well I have to say it ain’t working so far, from a marketing POV. There is a need for a really top-notch KDE distro, and more successful gnome distro’s exist among the leading brands. I believe this is an argument about where openSUSE positions itself in the distro market. If the “developers” are fighting over it like ferrets in a sack, there is only one place to look for the reason, i.e. weak leadership.
This is so few people we’re talking about the survey came back with 6% that is new users,
I don’t need any survey to tell me that openSUSE would be looking for new users by the crate loads. Forget about DVD’s and the other media. This not about the parts and the programs. It’s about market focus (users and potential), organization (developers) and leadership.
New users coming from Windows could already be confused by the choices in Linux. When I started I was confused but did my research and testing and settled on KDE. So I don’t think there should be a default. Just let the user descide. If the DVD gets to small then make a KDE dvd and a Gnome DVD (and a xfce DVD as well, of course ;))
Having read more well still I sit with my lolcat. But… I for one do not think suddenly putting KDE as the default will suddenly put resources in where they removed them. Now I can only presume why they removed the resources. iirc the KDE4 liveCD dev is no longer an employee and many users have been introduced to kde4 in its various disguises and got us the kde42 repo. Should people like this be supported absolutely no question about it, it is rewarding the community contributors.
But… openSUSE doesn’t make money for novell even if they charge for it. So am I surprised that they reallocated or trimmed resources from where they could. Of course not Sled/Sles is the money maker this needs Gnome devs. Is there politics of course there is as MC pointed out. I also think you see this coming out in the mailing list, the KDE devs are saying we have the higher % of users(Therefore you can equate more work), but the Gnome devs make Novell more money, yes this is again dictated by past decisions.
I truely can see what the KDE devs are saying but from a business point of view I can see why they support the gnome devs more. Now does this affect openSUSE hell not one little bit as proven by livecd’s now I also suspect the KDE devs are beginning to feel a little over worked and unloved. Reading between the lines it seems they would love some more devs to jump on the ship.
Perhaps this is related to the rather unvanilla nature of Suse. Now personally my own opinion is this isn’t related to the decisions made in the past, be that in Sled/Sles or laying off. This goes far deeper than that Suse has had 2 communities for such a long time. They are split irc/mailing list vs web forum every now and again we get a few pop over the border. But it needs to be consistent. I often wonder to my self how many people know who even Yaloki is. Let alone some of the real guys doing the grunt work to make the distribution what it is.
The resources are here for the developers but people need to see that, take the call for 15 testers. I wonder have they reached that yet. So it goes back to the question why is it so difficult to get 15 testers? I think if you read the thread and between the lines. The devs have become disjointed from the regular users as to the whys I surmised my reasons but perhaps it is something else.
Even if Novell shared the former logic, I don’t see it being dropped as their commercial products are gnome centric. If it’s sidelined, serious gnomes will march elsewhere. Hmmm, they do like its stability and seem content with the slower pace of change. Question is how many will be lost?
I don’t know the packaging effort, but IIRC Gnome suffered a shed load of bugs at 11.1 release, and if anything more serious than for KDE with 3.5.10 to fall back on. The gnomes must have been unhappy with that, wonder how many left already?
Agreed, but behind the “KDE as default” feature request (how else would you force an “official response” as a developer) is the proposer’s attempt to get “a statement of direction” that the project is totally committed to KDE, since it has the biggest following in openSUSE community. Taking into account the Novell-Gnome power base as per:
…Sled/Sles is the money maker this needs Gnome devs. Is there politics of course there is as MC pointed out. I also think you see this coming out in the mailing list, the KDE devs are saying we have the higher % of users(Therefore you can equate more work), but the Gnome devs make Novell more money, yes this is again dictated by past decisions.
The proposer did say that given a bigger commitment for KDE, he and others would be prepared to provide more help and packaging of KDE apps. So maybe they are not overworked yet. If developers have gone, management will be asking those retained to do more, so the trend will give rise to this at some point anyway:
…I also suspect the KDE devs are beginning to feel a little over worked and unloved…
I think it’s more than that i.e. make the commitment if you want more work. If I was a developer working part-time on openSUSE KDE, I would want the same.
Well I fall into the category that for the last few version openSUSE is feeling more like a test distro than not. Now I can see how you could argue well we’re listening to our community they want the latest.
But I feel for the ones that knew Suse early on IMO I would say up to 10.3, but there was a couple of slips I even remember. Not to mention the people actually paying for it and supporting it. It tends to be these guys that are vocal about the way the distro has gone. Remembering 9.3 I think they have valid points.
Well I’ve seen something recently in another distro and to be fair that just isn’t the way OSS works blackmailing doesn’t get the point. If they have the time then contribute don’t say well if you do this or that I’ll contribute. In theory and how many distro’s work someone else will pick up the slack.(This is the real point that they feel they can use this)
It sounds like they’re implying there aren’t others to step up to the plate. Back to round robin why is it so hard to get 15 testers from a community of 30,000. Why is it there isn’t other KDE devs? Thank goodness all the KDE devs don’t think like this as we wouldn’t of even had the livecds or the 42repo.
I know the topic of discussion has wandered a bit from the original post, but I have found something that is relevant to the original topic (setting KDE default over others).
I was reviewing the openSUSE guiding principles (I don’t mean to throw anymore ideology into the mix ), and found this little tid-bit:
We value …choice. We accept and respect that there are different ways to work, different preferences for applications, environments, tools or interfaces and different goals of users and contributors. We value diversity and pluralism as a way of addressing the needs of a broad variety of people.
So as a community that supports a distribution, setting a preference for one DE at the expense of another goes against this clause in the guiding principles.
Not that everyone agrees with these, but I just thought I’d throw that out there.
As you were .