Pretty much everyone’s read about Nokia partnering with Microsoft to put Windows Phone 7 on their phones. What really got me surprised is Icaza getting “psyched” out about it. More at :- Microsoft, Google and cloud tech news: Open source guru Miguel de Icaza “psyched” about Microsoft/Nokia deal | Network World, Twitter / Miguel de Icaza: Nokia to use Microsoft’s W ….
While others may disagree- I feel really disgusted with Icaza’s love for Microsoft and this disgust spills over to Novell and ultimately to openSUSE/GNOME. While I’m a regular user of openSUSE at work and home, statements like these make me want to drop openSUSE (yes, I know its unfair to tar it with the same brush as Icaza) like a hot potato.
Sorry, needed to rant on this…
de lcaza I think is doing all a dis-service including his own credibility by openly endorsing Microsoft while at the same time downplaying open-source, Linux, meego, gnome … as being less than viable.
I think de Icaza’s interests lie with integrating Microsoft technologies into Linux and I’m sure his efforts with Mono have allowed many Windows .NET developers to also target Linux. I do not necessarily see that as a bad thing.
It is important to realise that his efforts are generally not detrimental to Linux and certainly not to openSUSE. Without his efforts GNOME would not exist and you cannot argue that GNOME is not important to Linux.
If you have negative feelings towards de Icaza, and what he stands for, I am sure that you could still use openSUSE effectively by not using Mono and sticking with the KDE desktop. I do this because it makes sense to me - not through any dislike of de Icaza and his interests or chosen career path.
Regards,
Neil Darlow
You might also argue that the development of an alternative desktop (to KDE) at the time Gnome was introduced split the existing development community and hindered/slowed the development of a viable alternative to the Windows desktop. I’m not saying this isn’t the nature of FOSS just that it did split the pool of potential developers ( no I am not a conspiracy freak believing what he did he did to harm Linux’s growth).
I have always wondered what the actual usage of Mono has been, it’s usage in the Linux desktop universe appears limited to a number of Gnome apps but what of developers of corporate software? Is there a large group of apps and developers out there, has it been a game changer or just one of those technologies that may sound promising but doesn’t actually get that much use? And it has caused splits/rifts in the Linux community and defections from Suse/Novell/openSuse. I’d mention moonlight here but as silverlight is pretty non-existent to anything I’ve seen (other than Netflix) …
@google01103 I would say iFolder fit’s into corporate/mono arena.
That being said, because Nokia is behind QT then don’t use KDE? 
People need to use what ever they need to get things done…
@malcolmlewis I would never say not to use openSuse because of Mono nor the MS deal, I thought the MS deal was a good business decision on Novell’s part as it is/was a MS world in so many corporate areas. I really would like to know if Mono matters and I’ve never seen anything that said it did or didn’t, of course not being corporate aware I don’t know if C# matters either.
As to the Noika thing I don’t know, its too early but I would worry about long term Noika monetary and personnel support of QT and Noika’s survival as this was a pretty desperate move on their part. What happens to them if Windows 7 phone doesn’t gain traction? Would I consider not using KDE because of it, I didn’t drop openSuse because of Mono or th MS deal so probably not.
and yes “People need to use what ever they need to get things done…” and to be employed and to “live long and prosper”
On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:36:01 +0000, malcolmlewis wrote:
> @google01103 I would say iFolder fit’s into corporate/mono arena.
Quite arguably, iFolder wasn’t originally written in Mono, and the
initial releases of it developed under Mono were really poor performers.
I for one was quite unhappy personally with the use of an outstanding
technological idea as a testbed for Mono.
Same holds true for what happened to Red Carpet - a perfectly functional
piece of software that was used as a testbed for Mono (as ZEN Updater)
and finally the performance problems are gone (unless you use Open
Enterprise Server 2, which still uses the poor performing version, even
though fixes are available).
Of course, there are other problems with iFolder development as well,
namely that of backwards compatibility. If you have an iFolder 3.0
server and an iFolder 3.4 server, you can’t use the same iFolder client,
but they have conflicting components.
But that’s not strictly a Mono issue, that’s more of an engineering
decision making issue. (And it’s something specifically in the
enterprise versions only at that).
However, that said:
-
The “division of resources” to do GNOME development from KDE is not
really in my mind a valid argument. Open Source is about choice. KDE
and GNOME aren’t the only two desktops out there, either - Enligtenment
(or now just “E” I guess), Meego, xfce, cde, and so on would also fall
into that category. Choice is not a bad thing when it comes to
technology.
-
As I understand it, the goals of the Mono project are to make it
possible for developers writing for the platform that is the majority
platform (and that’s Windows, whether you like it or not) can write
software that runs on Windows and runs on Linux. Why is that
important? Code reuse allows the underlying platform to be changed,
which strategically helps Linux make inroads into Windows-only shops.
It stands to reason that if you have, say, a million .NET developers out
there, having those developers suddenly be able to port their programs
very easily to run on Linux means we add a million Linux developers to
the pool. That’s pretty useful - and significant - in trying to grow
Linux’s market share.
Jim
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C
On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 21:36:02 +0000, google01103 wrote:
> @hendersj
>
> 1) Obviously it is the right of FOSS developers to start or even fork
> projects if they wish, I only feel that the start and development of
> Gnome (honorable as it might have been, not forgetting the issues with
> QT licensing at the time) kept Linux on the desktop back because of the
> splitting of resources. Gnome matters here because a) it caught on and
> b) it is a much more full featured de than the others (ex MeeGo uses non
> Meego apps for the defaults iirc).
GNOME has many reasons for existing, and there also may well have been
creative differences in how the desktop looks, for example. Different
strokes for different folks, and the choice is a good thing.
I personally find the Linux desktop environments to be more advanced than
the Windows interface, for example - so I don’t see that it isn’t “full
featured”. But I also consider a desktop as a means to an end, namely
running applications - so I don’t understand the “wars” over which DE is
better (for example).
> 2) What defines " a million .NET developers"? Is it persons who signed
> up for a newsletter, dl’ed some sw or actually produces applications
> using .NET on a daily basis - the numbers game always brings me back to
> Stepen Hawkins and “A Brief History of Time” being on the best seller
> lists, just because people bought it doesn’t mean they actually read it
> (bet you they didn’t). My question is what significance in the land of
> Linux can be attributed to these “million Linux developers” - really I’m
> not trying to be difficult but I have no clue where/what C# plays,
> though I do understand the why just not if it actually came to pass.
That “million .NET developers” is a number I pulled out of the air. I’m
talking about “there is a large .NET developer audience”, and that
audience developed software that exclusively ran on Windows".
Now they can develop for cross-platform environments, which can only help
Linux adoption because “it only runs on Windows” is something that is
possible for some percentage < 100% of all software written for .NET.
See how that works?
Jim
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C
[QUOTE=hendersj
That “million .NET developers” is a number I pulled out of the air. I’m
talking about “there is a large .NET developer audience”, and that
audience developed software that exclusively ran on Windows".
Now they can develop for cross-platform environments, which can only help
Linux adoption because “it only runs on Windows” is something that is
possible for some percentage < 100% of all software written for .NET.
See how that works?
[/QUOTE]
I see why/how it should work but it’s not been demonstrated from anything I’ve seen that it actually works that way in practice at least on the desktop. In Windows (use very rarely) I’ve only encountered a handful of apps requiring it, none of which I could do without (so far). Maybe its for internal development in corporate environments thing and that’s why I don’t see the affect that its had.
On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:06:02 +0000, google01103 wrote:
> I see why/how it should work but it’s not been demonstrated from
> anything I’ve seen that it actually works that way in practice at least
> on the desktop. In Windows (use very rarely) I’ve only encountered a
> handful of apps requiring it, none of which I could do without (so
> far). Maybe its for internal development in corporate environments
> thing and that’s why I don’t see the affect that its had.
Well, regardless of whether it’s actually been seen or not, that’s what
it seems to me the intention was. Sometimes things work out the way one
intends, and sometimes they don’t.
I think the jury’s still out on Mono myself. And I also think you may be
right, that in internal corporate development, that may be where it’s at
at the moment. It’s also very likely that the ‘endgame’ of the
initiative isn’t here yet, so maybe just a case of being too early to see
the results. It’s a gradual thing, after all - not something where we
would (or should) expect to see a million sites switch from Windows to
Linux overnight because of Mono (or because of any one thing).
These things take time.
Jim
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C
@hendersj & malcolmlewis nice responses, thanks
So, all this ranting because somebody’s cheering for the Microsoft deal? Nobody writes a thread every time I say something positive about Microsoft 
Is it because Miguel is cheering? That’s pretty much a “well, duh”
He’s working on a project that is heavily influenced and related to a popular Microsoft project, of course he’s going to be happy that there are more opportunities for developers. Even if the number of Mono developers to .NET developers is at 1% (which seems to be a bit high), an increase in .NET developers leads to an increase in Mono developers.
Also, the growth of Windows 7 Phone means a growing platform for Mono applications in addition to the other phones. He’s developing a programming language/platform/framework/ecosystem (not sure what it is called), and this news benefits him in his task.
I use Linux at home, but there are a lot of applications and such I wish worked on Linux including Visual Studio for .NET development. I’m not happy with Monodevelop yet, plus I haven’t had the chance to work on translating my VB.NET skills to C# yet.
You wouldn’t expect Stallman to cheer at some piece of proprietary software that helps determine if FOSS is used in other proprietary applications even if lawyers and developers might?
What I find funny is that Novell’s SLED is (correct me if I am wrong) Gnome-based and Mono is a Novell-sponsored project while openSUSE is using KDE by default and there isn’t nearly as much adoption for Mono in KDE. So it is like the two groups are diametrically opposite of each other. So if you don’t like Mono, install KDE, while if you like Mono use Gnome.
On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 15:06:01 +0000, dragonbite wrote:
> So if
> you don’t like Mono, install KDE, while if you like Mono use Gnome.
Good advice, I’d just change it to “if you like or are ambivalent about
Mono use GNOME”.
I’m pretty ambivalent about Mono myself these days.
Jim
–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C