Recently I got my father a brand new HP Pavilion Notebook PC that came with an AMD A6 processor, 4 gigs of ram and pre loaded with Windows 8.1
To help him transition I gave him a dual boot with Ubuntu 13.10 (sadly this new computer uses UEFI software and while openSUSE says it supports UEFI with 13.1 I did not have any luck making it work)
My father has used Ubuntu before, both pre and post Unity but has not ran actual Ubuntu in about two years now as his old machine did not play well with Unity.
In any case he as spent a week getting re acclimated to Ubuntu and today I finally gave him the grand tour of Windows 8.1 for the first time.
I spent an hour with him on Windows before he decided to go back to Ubuntu.
He flat out said he rather use Ubuntu then Windows, he doesnt like it at all and was thrown off by the huge disconnect between the ModernUI and the desktop and how it soured his experience.
I said in time he could learn Windows 8.1 but he flat out said it did not appeal to him.
And this is coming from the same person who years used windows XP, he did not use Vista or 7.
His introduction to linux is fairly recent all things considered, he first used Ubuntu on a more regular basis in 2010.
Before that he used an older version of openSUSE (I think it was 11.1) but only booted into it sparingly as at the time it did not work too well with his on board wireless card, after I got him using linux Mint as due to it having wireless drivers preinstalled it worked better and after periodic boots into XP he started using Ubuntu after I guided him into it (I wanted him to progress with the OS learning the OS before jumping in as he had troubles with XP when he first started)
He used Ubuntu for about 2 years then I had to give him Xubuntu due to his hardware.
Since then he has been hopping with me trying new distros out.
But now I many not take him off Ubuntu as he seems to enjoy it now that it actually works very well on his new machine.
In any case I think I finally fully converted my father to linux, sure he did use it as his main OS on his old laptop but due to its age he had issues with almost anything I threw at him.
Took him about 10 years or so but here we are 
Well done. Been trying to persuade my brother for over ten years with no success and various other people with little success. However, I just persuaded a 70+ XP user to move to Xfce. (He had only been using XP for a few years; so he wasn’t conditioned with too many bad habits!)
john hudson wrote:
>
Been trying to persuade my brother
Yeah . No one except me likes Linux in my household.
–
GNOME 3.10.2
openSUSE 13.1 (Bottle) (x86_64) 64-bit
Kernel Linux 3.11.6-4-desktop
Yup. You have to get them young, in computing terms.
Here my wife doesn’t even know what windows is, and my daughter simply abhors W8. An she does on her own, without any badmouthing by me - not that W8 need it.
Even our maid uses openSUSE in her desktop (which I assembled/configured for her). She also can dualboot XP if/when her daughters/nephews break openSUSE, but much prefers oS.
My 70+ years old mother, on the other hand, won’t use anything other than XP/firefox/word97/outlook express (no internet banking or credit card purchases on this box, however). At least she’s not into IE.
Bottom line, it’s all about what you’re used to.
I found in my case that I have to pitch linux as a side OS and not as a primary.
When people do stuff like gaming and play blu ray Linux wont do the job, but dual boots at the very least should be encouraged if not enforced.
For mny fathrs old computer though yeah I have no option to do full linux as it boots XP and is not compatible with Vista and might be too old for 7.
Way to go Madman!
Yeah out of all the people in my family my father was hardest to crack and embrace linux, my mom loves linux (she is running openSUSE 13.1 KDE 64bit) and my sister likes linux (though is still using windows a little more due to gaming, but she does use Linux on her old laptop)
let me just state good for you and your father.
but what is the point of this post?
To promote Ubuntu?
To slander Windows 8 ?
What?
it always funny to read/speak with people who are PRO-something but you need to have some point in your words.
like it or not Linux for the most part is not ready for a prime time.
I am saying this not to start a war, but as my personal observation on this matter.
why you ask? well… let see…
Here some personal history,
I am a long time windows user, started with win 3.11 and using win 7 now for almost everything.
my wife use windows XP for work and 7 for home
my 78 yo Father in-law uses win XP/7 for work (yest still working), XP for home the Pc is old and can not handle W7 can barely handle XP.
my 65yo mother in-law uses win 8.1 laptop for home use choose it her self and loves it
so a windows shop all around right? WRONG!
I am building a home VM /File server on OpenSuse 13.1 and have just rebuild my 6yo laptop from XP to OpenSuse 13.1 and let me tell you the experience is both intriguing and infuriating at the same time.
this is my first endeavor with Linux in 15 years.
and my observations are that Linux as a desktop OS come a long way since then. really long way
but there are things that still hold its progress back.
I am not surprise of your father liking Ubuntu , on a new powerful hardware it very nice and furthermore Ubuntu it user experience centric to the gills, BUT what your father does with it ?
for many people especially in US Linux is not an option, my father in-law is a perfect example.
he MUST have windows for compatibility as most of the apps he uses are windows and do not work in Linux.
and I can not help him with it. I tried to setup some of them on Ubuntu and OpenSuse for fun and it was a disaster. what even more he does not even want to learn new stuff. he just want his things to work that’s all.
windows 8 is not difficult, and it is even simple to setup to start with desktop upfront , as such it is just as win7 for most of the users with just few changes on how you run programs. and I am not sure why people are so adamant to slander it this much. but that is not important at the moment.
as I was saying I just rebuild my older laptop with OpenSuse 13.1
took me 2 attempts.
#1. the liveCD was a disaster. the video was not working using LiveCd session nor full install.
the laptop have nVidia graphics and would run properly.
#2. no wireless at all
#3. sound was a no go from the get go .
I manged to find and install nVidia drivers that made the screen work, it took me 2 hours to find and installit.
I also managed to hunt the wireless driver that worked with it as well again almost an hour.
the laptop was slow like molasses.
the laptop is HP Pavilion dv6000
CPU 1.7 GHz AMD Athlon ™ 64 X2 Dual-Core Mobile Technology TK-53
RAM 4GB
should be more than enough for Linux distro.
win XP 64 bit run on it just fine, not the speed breaker but well enough.
but Opensuse 13.1 full KDE was unusable.
I dump the install and reinstall from full DVD using LXDE setup.
it worked much better.
the screen was readable and responsive compaired to LiveCD install where I had to use keyboard most of the time to navigate and run things as screen was warped and unreadable
since I have already found the drives for video it was easier to find them again and install it.
so is the wireless driver, easier but still took some efforts to do so.
and after all that the laptop is still very very slow.
the whole idea behind putting Linux on it was that it should be faster and since my goal is to use it for websurfing
mostly that was main attraction behind it. but it is not faster and now it is not compatible with most of the things out there that are designed for windows. so what are the benefits?
That’s what I dressed up with openSUSE 13.1 ~2 weeks ago. The wireless a Broadcom IIRC, I knew how to deal with it. Again IIRC nouveau was only fine with “nomodeset”. I know the machine is heavily used and the customer is of the “complaining” type, but I haven’t heard. Even the desktop effects in KDE worked.
But … it already had the original, horribly slow HDD replaced by a SSD…
yes that would be my next project.
get an SSD and move the install to it.
I just want to try it first to make sure I can get the system going with wireless and sound.
what really surprising to me is that “free” command tells me that half of my RAM is used just onload. and
that is with LXDE setup. isn’t this supposed to be a light weight config?
PS>> my wireless was 4311 and I had to install broadcom_wl package
No to give my fathers success story, Ubuntu or not he now officially prefers linux over windows.
And for me this is a big deal, my father was an XP user for years and it was his primary OS.
it always funny to read/speak with people who are PRO-something but you need to have some point in your words.
like it or not Linux for the most part is not ready for a prime time.
I am saying this not to start a war, but as my personal observation on this matter.
why you ask? well… let see…
Here some personal history,
I am a long time windows user, started with win 3.11 and using win 7 now for almost everything.
my wife use windows XP for work and 7 for home
my 78 yo Father in-law uses win XP/7 for work (yest still working), XP for home the Pc is old and can not handle W7 can barely handle XP.
my 65yo mother in-law uses win 8.1 laptop for home use choose it her self and loves it
so a windows shop all around right? WRONG!
I am building a home VM /File server on OpenSuse 13.1 and have just rebuild my 6yo laptop from XP to OpenSuse 13.1 and let me tell you the experience is both intriguing and infuriating at the same time.
this is my first endeavor with Linux in 15 years.
and my observations are that Linux as a desktop OS come a long way since then. really long way
but there are things that still hold its progress back.
Huh talk about promoting, you say linux isnt ready for prime time yet gush about windows.
I am not surprise of your father liking Ubuntu , on a new powerful hardware it very nice and furthermore Ubuntu it user experience centric to the gills, BUT what your father does with it ?
My father browses the internet mainly, its his main pass time.
For simplify sake Ubuntui does fine
for many people especially in US Linux is not an option, my father in-law is a perfect example.
he MUST have windows for compatibility as most of the apps he uses are windows and do not work in Linux.
and I can not help him with it. I tried to setup some of them on Ubuntu and OpenSuse for fun and it was a disaster. what even more he does not even want to learn new stuff. he just want his things to work that’s all.
windows 8 is not difficult, and it is even simple to setup to start with desktop upfront , as such it is just as win7 for most of the users with just few changes on how you run programs. and I am not sure why people are so adamant to slander it this much. but that is not important at the moment.
as I was saying I just rebuild my older laptop with OpenSuse 13.1
took me 2 attempts.
#1. the liveCD was a disaster. the video was not working using LiveCd session nor full install.
the laptop have nVidia graphics and would run properly.
#2. no wireless at all
#3. sound was a no go from the get go .
I manged to find and install nVidia drivers that made the screen work, it took me 2 hours to find and installit.
I also managed to hunt the wireless driver that worked with it as well again almost an hour.
the laptop was slow like molasses.
the laptop is HP Pavilion dv6000
CPU 1.7 GHz AMD Athlon ™ 64 X2 Dual-Core Mobile Technology TK-53
RAM 4GB
should be more than enough for Linux distro.
win XP 64 bit run on it just fine, not the speed breaker but well enough.
but Opensuse 13.1 full KDE was unusable.
I dump the install and reinstall from full DVD using LXDE setup.
it worked much better.
the screen was readable and responsive compaired to LiveCD install where I had to use keyboard most of the time to navigate and run things as screen was warped and unreadable
since I have already found the drives for video it was easier to find them again and install it.
so is the wireless driver, easier but still took some efforts to do so.
and after all that the laptop is still very very slow.
the whole idea behind putting Linux on it was that it should be faster and since my goal is to use it for websurfing
mostly that was main attraction behind it. but it is not faster and now it is not compatible with most of the things out there that are designed for windows. so what are the benefits?
seems to me you are biased so I wont respond to all this, you are not convinced by linux fine use windows whatever.
ok I don’t want to start a blog war here.
also I am sorry to come across to strong.
but I am not promoting windows (I don’t have to as it is quiet popular by itself)
I was just making a point that I am coming from all around windows shop,
but willing to try something new.
and I as a matter of fact like OpenSuse very much.
it is very robust and well developed OS, sutable for server OR desktop.
and given a choice I would recommend it just because of “Yast” alone.
but still I am not convinced it is ready for general use like windows are.
Without local support, meaning some one close by to provide help, many users will be lost if any issues arise.
I am good at troubleshooting, better say I am good at finding solutions for problems using any resources available to me. and I can do that better than many people I am dealing with everyday. but I have less issues with windows than I do with Linux. that alone shows me that it is not ready to be used by many people out there.
granted some places in the world where windows and underlying tech. does not have a hold on the market people might not have a choice but use Linux and also since they all use Linux
compatibility would not be much of an issue too. but in a good old USA windows cornered the market by big margin, and since business use windows Linix have a hard time to compete.
BUT Linux enthusiasts need to realize that proper course of action should be moving away from CLI and into GUI for all user needs. OpenSuse seams to moving that way and making great progress. (and yes this is my shameless promotion of OpenSuse over other distros 
)
Well openSUSE is not the only one that provides gui for many aspects of the system.
Most just use the native control center of the DE like Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, Linux Mint, Etc.
The main reason why most linux users use oammandline to help others is that its just easier to type out then giving step by step GUI instructions.
On 2014-03-11, vl1969 <vl1969@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
> and I as a matter of fact like OpenSuse very much.
> it is very robust and well developed OS, sutable for server OR desktop.
> and given a choice I would recommend it just because of “Yast” alone.
> but still I am not convinced it is ready for general use like windows
> are.
It depends what you mean by general use. If you mean casual internet browsing, email, and light word-processing,
almost all Linux distributions are fine. Once you add multimedia (mp3/mpeg/etc…), then openSUSE won’t work out the box
because it doesn’t come with batteries installed. However Linux Mint does, and this distro works very well for Linux
newcomers.
On 2014-03-11, vl1969 <vl1969@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
> Without local support, meaning some one close by to provide help,
> many users will be lost if any issues arise.
This is true. I believe the main hurdle to Linux is the installation process. It’s nothing most Windows users ever have
to face because computers come generally with the OS pre-installed. But once users are faced with the bewildering
options concerning partitioning and bootloaders, it’s easy to see how newcomers are put-off. Of course this would also
be the case for Windows, but its preinstallation obviates this hurdle.
> I am good at troubleshooting, better say I am good at finding solutions
> for problems using any resources available to me. and I can do that
> better than many people I am dealing with everyday. but I have less
> issues with windows than I do with Linux. that alone shows me that it is
> not ready to be used by many people out there.
This is true. Linux is not free; you pay with time rather than money. For general consumers, hardware support is better
with Windows. Poor 3D graphics support has always made Windows the superior OS when it comes to gaming. For this reason,
and others, I believe the Steam on Linux project is doomed.
> granted some places in the world where windows and underlying tech. does
> not have a hold on the market people might not have a choice but use
> Linux and also since they all use Linux
> compatibility would not be much of an issue too. but in a good old USA
> windows cornered the market by big margin, and since business use
> windows Linix have a hard time to compete.
I agree. I know highly computer-literate professionals who refuse to use Linux simply because of MS Office. Although I
can make MS Office work inside Wine/PlayOnLinux, it’s a hack. And LibreOffice doesn’t seem to be taken seriously in the
corporate world.
> BUT Linux enthusiasts need to realize that proper course of action
> should be moving away from CLI and into GUI for all user needs.
When you say `proper course of action’, I ask for who? Even in Windows, a number of the powerful applications (such as
DISKPART) are only accessible from command line. I agree that GUI provision ideally should be absolute to the extent
where regular users should never have to drop to command line. But if you’re doing some serious customisations at the
root/administrator level, I would still want command line available because on many occasions, scripts will beat mouse
clicks.
> OpenSuse
> seams to moving that way and making great progress. (and yes this is my
> shameless promotion of OpenSuse over other distros )
It is, but I still wouldn’t recommend openSUSE as a distribution for newcomers.
vl1969](https://forums.opensuse.org/member.php/76703-vl1969) said:
BUT Linux enthusiasts need to realize that proper course of action should be moving away from CLI and into GUI for all user needs. OpenSuse seams to moving that way and making great progress. (and yes this is my shameless promotion of OpenSuse over other distros
I would disagree with this.
I’m not a very advanced user myself but my skills with the terminal are increasing and I’m now inclined to prefer doing certain tasks using it instead of any GUI; one major benefit from this is the speed, often both in respect of task resource demand and user input, but certainly in regard the first. I recognise of course that certain programs are hard to work with without a GUI but would say that in general, and not with any (contemporary) attractiveness perspective in mind, that the opposite development would be preferable; having some basic knowledge of underlying principles should be favourable, towards ‘all from the GUI’ seems to me like just increasing the distance and awareness of those; co-existence is fine. I rather believe it all comes down to what one grows accustomed with, i.e the dominance of Microsoft has created a ‘social constructed(!)’ way of thinking in terms of computing, not the only one possible; change those premisses, i.e. change the ‘upbringing’, and you get a culture with a different mindset. To stick with my argumentation, this may, thus, benefit from a more effective society; whether more effectiveness in itself is desirable is, however, debatable, in my opinion.
You talk from your perspective of computing, quality etc., nothing wrong with that, but the thread starter seems to consider this more as something fun; a bit hard to demand him to defend his every position, declared and undeclared, in a text concerning this. I don’t want to argue with you and I did not set out to offend, I suppose I didn’t either; but, considering your first post, calling for arguments, this post grew a bit in its making:)
Cheers,
Olav
let me explain what I mean F_Sauce:
the use of CLI can be explained and even tolerated when you are dealing with a single porpoise
limited resources devices and even then most of the devices in question do have some sort of interface you can use to setup and configure them as needed.
other than that most applications of said devices are such that either they do not require interactions with human, for example intelligent censors,time clocks and a like , or they do not require direct interaction with human but use an indirect approach of receiving data/commands from other connected devices with an interface of some sort.
security systems (you use a keypad panel to interact with main system)
car computers and other similar systems where you have a main closed system that is connected and communicates with other less smart devices/interfaces that in turn interact with a final user.
general computing and personal computing specifically have always been pushed towards GUI.
textual interface(CLI) is not intuitive for human beings. just because we learn and can use it does not mean it is perfect way to interact with something.
think about it.
do you interact with your car using keyboard and text ?
do you interact with most appliances using the same?
there are multitude of examples as well as research studies, that prove my point, that GUI is the best and usually more productive way for human to interact with our surroundings.
most international standards rely on pictographs aka images to relay universally recognized messages
and where this standard is not followed human have issues understanding the message.
from the very beginning the interface for human interaction with computer have been evolving to make it better and more human friendly Windows and similar GUI were an evolution of that interface.
if text base interface was best way to interact with computers, we would still be using DOS.
On 2014-03-12, vl1969 <vl1969@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
> let me explain what I mean F_Sauce:
> the use of CLI can be explained and even tolerated when you are dealing
> with a single porpoise
> limited resources devices
Oh you are grossly generalising there. CLI has many more uses then for single purpose limited resources devices and for
many applications, a CLI is much better suited than a GUI for many people (e.g. using ssh). When I type code or message
posts (including this one), I write it in a console because it’s much more efficient to use only the keyboard (I don’t
the cursor arrow keys because they slow me down) than ever having to reach for the mouse. On the other hand, I don’t
claim that CLI is ever `better’ than GUI for everyone. Linux offers a choice and I think the decisions different users
make should be respected. I spend 99% of my computer time in a console, but acknowledge the need for GUI provision even
if only to browse the web and view PDFs.
It seems like most of these discussions invariable devolve into the CLI vs GUI, etc. Other than computer operators, nobody makes a living hanging in the CLI - they make it by being en expert with some type of GUI based application and news flash: that means a non-linux based system most of the time. Only students and retirees can afford to play all day on their linux system.
On 2014-03-11 18:56, vl1969 wrote:
> but still I am not convinced it is ready for general use like windows
> are.
> Without local support, meaning some one close by to provide help, many
> users will be lost if any issues arise.
Exactly the same as with Windows. I know many people, using Windows,
which would be lost if they did not have someone close by to provide help.
How many of those are capable of installing Windows from scratch on
their own?
I know many that take their computer perhaps twice a year to the shop
“to be cleaned”, because their Windows has become slow as molasses. They
get tons of viruses, they don’t know how to clean them. If they don’t
have someone close by with the knowledge that does it for free, they
take it to the shop, where they charge to “clean the computer”, usually
meaning “format and reinstall”, everything lost. Such is life, and they
accept it.
Hey, I don’t complain. I know quite a number of people that make a
living out of cleaning windowses. >:-p
For many, Windows is easy because that is what they have known since
babies. Me, I know both, and I find Linux far easier.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)
On 2014-03-16 20:06, BSDuser wrote:
>
> It seems like most of these discussions invariable devolve into the CLI
> vs GUI, etc. Other than computer operators, nobody makes a living
> hanging in the CLI -
On the contrary! Many computer experts do. And there are tons of
applications requiring extensive use of keyboard and typed input. GUI,
yes, but also CLI at the same time.
> they make it by being en expert with some type of
> GUI based application and news flash: that means a non-linux based
> system most of the time. Only students and retirees can afford to play
> all day on their linux system.
HAH! Not true.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)