On 4/23/2009 12:46 AM, xlr wrote:
> I would like to know what do you think about how Mandriva and OpenSUSE
> compare against each other.
>
> Both are very easy to use, both have excellent system administration
> utilities (Mandriva Control Center and YAST respectively).
>
> Please tell me which one you like more and why.
>
>
Heh, funny that if the title had *buntu instead of Mandriva, this thread
would have become an argument 3-4 posts in.
Very true 
it’s a apt-love or apt-hate relationship…
Besides waiting for the 11.2 milestone1 download to finish and give it
a whirl on this netbook.
–
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
openSUSE 11.1 (i586) Kernel 2.6.27.21-0.1-pae
up 1:31, 1 user, load average: 0.33, 0.63, 0.67
ASUS eeePC 1000HE ATOM N280 1.66GHz | GPU Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME
Regarding the Milestone is there anywhere a file list of the included packages?
BenderBendingRodriguez wrote:
> Regarding the Milestone is there anywhere a file list of the included
> packages?
Try following link and look under ‘factory’ column:
http://distrowatch.com/suse
Cheers
That’s because nowadays Ubuntu is put in front of all other distros, like it’s some special child or something and the others don’t deserve to be mentioned, no matter how good they may be. Personally, I find this extremely unfair and kind of an insult to Linux overall. Virtually every time I read a Linux article somewhere, whether benchmarking, comparing one or something else, guess which Linux distro they’ll compare to/use? Yup, you got it right, it’s Ubuntu
Believe it or not, there are people (extreme noobs) who think that Linux = Ubuntu and Ubuntu = Linux and there’s nothing else. In my eyes, this is complete failure to understand Linux and an insult. Ubuntu is a poster child which really is not that special but is made like it is by a bunch of idiots
I think Mark Shuttleworth has done a fantastic job of promoting Ubuntu to new users in particular. I don’t think it is the most technically perfect distribution of choice, but the rapid development of this distro is a reflection of his strong motivation (and money :)) to provide a free desktop complete with free apps etc for all who choose to use it. I prefer to think that Ubuntu has helped raise Linux awareness to the masses - but all distros surely benefit from this.
Interesting tuxradar podcast I’ve just finished listening to:
the only thing Spaceman has done is excellent marketing, nothing else. If you read some of his blogs, you’d be amazed how ridiculous some of them are and in a lot of them, it shows his cluelessness (is that a word? lol). And rapid development? Ubuntu doesn’t even have a rolling release, now that’s rapid development!
Yes, Ubuntu has raised Linux awareness but at the expense of other distros. It seems Spaceman doesn’t compete with MS that much but with other distros instead. What makes Ubuntu superior to Mandriva or SUSE? Nothing really. Ubuntu doesn’t even have a central control center like YaST or the one in Mandriva. Ubuntu is a bastardized child of Debian and there was a time that the Debian folks weren’t so happy about this.
When Novell got into the MS deal, Spaceman even tried to lure openSUSE devs by posting on the SUSE mailing list and asking them to switch over. That’s ridiculous. He was the only person who did this. No people from Mandriva, Debian, Gentoo, Arch, etc did such things
I agree with you here:
What makes Ubuntu superior to Mandriva or SUSE? Nothing really. Ubuntu doesn’t even have a central control center like YaST or the one in Mandriva. Ubuntu is a bastardized child of Debian and there was a time that the Debian folks weren’t so happy about this.
He makes no apology that it is essentially a Debian fork. However, because Ubuntu is so popular, there is huge developer support behind it, a lot of it funded by the $$$ from his foundation. I don’t see that this is a problem for openSUSE as such. We’re well supported too…
you just invalidated your own argument by saying that Ubuntu has lots of developers and a lot of money too from Spaceman, yet you don’t see the smaller development team of openSUSE as a problem as even though we have a smaller team, we’re well supported and on par with Ubuntu in virtually all areas. In the end, this argument doesn’t support any form of superiority present in Ubuntu and only shows that lots of $$$ and bigger dev team does not necessarily lead to a superior distro.
Also, Ubuntu has been known (I don’t know if it’s still is) to have a poor security model (abusing sudo among the popular ones) and often patches arrive way too late
In the end, this argument doesn’t support any form of superiority present in Ubuntu and only shows that lots of $$$ and bigger dev team does not necessarily lead to a superior distro.
I never said it did (your assumption). Mine was a comment about its undoubted popularity. It doesn’t worry me in the slightest. I don’t choose a particular distro just because its popular (a new user might however).
I thought this whole argument, from the very beginning, was about why lots of people think Ubuntu is better and why Ubuntu is so popular, no? Lots of people seem to think that Ubuntu is one way or another is better, hence they use it. It’s not just about popularity
I’ve always seen it this way, it doesn’t matter what distro or any of that. 1 new user will eventually become a linux developer.
Now that helps me, so for selfish reasons lets help the new users. Now people come in all shapes and sizes. Just because someone is not picking up the linux way straight away, doesn’t mean they won’t become a developer(Lets make it a bit wider a contributor to the OSS community).
Now you could think of Ubu as filter if you really want I don’t but heah why not. So what if they think Ubu is linux(I’m sure you could say the same for many distro’s though). They clearly are the type of people that aren’t going to contribute to the community as a whole let them stay.
And regardless of Ubu’s faults it does embrace the new user clearly and I do think some communities c/should take an example from it. Even if that was all Ubu provided, that is new users that tire and eventually explore linux. Then in my eyes that is just as valuable as some other distro’s contributions.
Lots of people seem to think that Ubuntu is one way or another is better, hence they use it. It’s not just about popularity
The first reason is subjective anyway, and most new linux users would not yet be in the position to know which disro is ‘better’ for them. The second reason is currently ‘fact’, and so Ubuntu has vastly more exposure to new users via various media.
Interesting article discussing why new users should try Ubuntu:
Why (almost) Everyone Should Try Ubuntu - Page 1 | Maximum PC
It also argues that Ubuntu’s popularity is good for other distro’s, primarily because of potential increased support from hardware vendors. But don’t let it upset you (we don’t have to agree with it). Now where did I put those openSUSE fridge-magnets and t-shirts…
@FeatherMonkey: Agree completely with what you said. Especially with
And regardless of Ubu’s faults it does embrace the new user clearly and I do think some communities c/should take an example from it. Even if that was all Ubu provided, that is new users that tire and eventually explore linux. Then in my eyes that is just as valuable as some other distro’s contributions.
Now I can sleep… …penguins…zzzzz
Yes, I’ve read this article and it does make good points. However, if you dig down into the Ubuntu community, you will see lots of people claiming that Ubuntu is in a lot of ways superior. When you ask why, they give the same arguments over and over again. Ubuntu uses deb instead of rpm, Ubuntu has Synaptic, Ubuntu does many things right, Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that, etc. And these arguments don’t just come from newbies, but from users that have been on Ubuntu since the beginning. Such arguments (most which are false) combined with the huge popularity, biases the newcomer into thinking that Ubuntu is the only way for them and that other distros are too technical for noobs, which is obviously not the case. This also has a loopback effect which in tern increases its popularity even more and round goes the loop
Yes, Ubuntu popularity helps Linux overall on the HW side, but it’s a double-edged sword. On the one side, it helps Linux overall, on the other side, it overshadows other distros by its huge popularity by positioning itself as THE distro for newcomers which is pretty subjective
Because some people like to feel “different” (something like Apple users 
) so they embrace Ubuntu. Really open minded person willc check other distro’s.
In most cases discussion with such persons is futile.
<snip>it overshadows other distros<snip>
That is up to other distro’s to deal with, I’m sorry but to ignore the state of some bits in the suse community. Now what I’m trying to do is what the article says far clearer than I.
Linux Needs Critics - Business Center - PC World
Example (Note:MC I know you contribute) I went to the custom kernel page, 10.3 is at the top. So why does no one do anything about it(I bet at least 10 people read this that can do both compile and edit wiki)?
We then have initrd, page saying something is depreciated, yet the low memory install page still references it.
I’m not having a pop, but lets just take the wiki as an example. In comparison to a new users point of view the Arch wiki is superior with a far smaller community.
So why is that the Suse Community doesn’t try to embrace the new user? Why aren’t the more experienced users sorting out the wiki? Now I’ve did try with the wiki but I can’t write wiki pages.
Then we quite often resort to read the man, google it etc…
I’ve explained my reasons for it hell I’ve even reached frustration with it, but I spent half hr putting this post together…
Strange Issue - openSUSE Forums
But the above example is the support users on Ubu will get, I know it is not the type you like giving, we all give in our own ways. But if we want a better community then it is changed by us. Not by moaning about what other distro’s are doing. If we want more new users then the community needs to embrace them and that in many times means holding there hands.
I’m inclined to agree with this. Really - it’s free. If that isn’t enough of an incentive to give it a try, and only then throw your hands in the air and cry “It’s too technical! I’m going back to Ubuntu!” then nothing ever will be.
Ubuntu has possibly more than its fair share of idiots and deluded fanboys, but things with a zeitgeist always do. It also has its share of more sober and sensible users, who will always recommend that people give other distros a fair go. It couldn’t survive any other way - that’s the nature of open source, and a shut off incestuous community would quickly run out of ideas and code.
Personally, I think more of an issue is their community support. I think there are simply too many people posting the same questions to each other, and the same frequently inadequate answers - it’s an echo box of newbies.
This runs the risk of putting people off Linux altogether, because they’re never exposed to technical expertise, and thereby the realisation that there is a solution to most problems - you don’t just have to lump it or go back to Windows.
The only thing I think they can do about this is change their culture, and really start to tell people in no uncertain terms that they need to use forum search before asking questions - something the openSUSE community is definitely better at.
That is a huge achievement, given the competition. I suppose you might prefer a quiet revolution. That may have worked in the distant past, but but time is running out for only that approach.
And rapid development? Ubuntu doesn’t even have a rolling release, now that’s rapid development!
Linux needs take-up by more “users”, otherwise powerful sponsors will disappear if they cannot grow their revenue take. Those users will have much less operating system or development skills. They just want stuff to work with an easy installation process. They won’t care about the development process.
Yes, Ubuntu has raised Linux awareness but at the expense of other distros.
That’s what happens in a free market. Winners and losers. The more distros there are, the more losers there will eventually be, in the competition for user take-up.
When Novell got into the MS deal, Spaceman even tried to lure openSUSE devs by posting on the SUSE mailing list and asking them to switch over. That’s ridiculous. He was the only person who did this. No people from Mandriva, Debian, Gentoo, Arch, etc did such things
That’s just good tactics in response to the insurgance of MS into the linux community. What did the others do? They complained from the touchline or signed powerless boycotts against Novell. At least Shuttleworth’s tactics would have helped in the case of demotivated developers, and help to retain resources needed by the community.
In the end, it’s simple. MS want to destroy linux (whatever their PR agency claims). To prevent that, Linux needs experienced and powerful players like Shuttleworth. They play hardball, or the money runs out.
Well, in Windows world you have the same amount of experienced users and newbies. Newbie will tell you to reinstall system so most people will do just that.
Professional would ask you questions, tell you to do this and that which is more difficult than a reinstall.
I am experienced in Windows (declining right now) and when i got to linux world i felt lost. As i was learning and losing data i learned couple good habits (to backup, backup and once again backup).
Ubuntu isn’t bad but for me it is too streamlined for mass users.
I like to have things custom (like installing with a DVD or a custom susestudio made live CD ).
After using Ubuntu i was bored with every new release bringin almost nothing new to the table so i started looking at other distributions and here i am 
And in reality, users that don’t care (grandma, grandpa,) won’t look anywhere else, they’ll just use what they got
It’s the same in Windows world, why try anything else if they got it already.
I wish everyone luck but i’d only want everyone to know that they have a choice. That’s what matters (take into account Matrix, they survived because they had a choice so ultimately all Windows crops will die out from the lack of choice 
)