KDE direction (Gnome as swell?)

English Soapbox
#1

See this:

http://www.techworld.com.au/article/382938/new_kde_project_aims_tablets_mixed_uis/

Small wonder KDE4 has gotten lost in eye heroin. If this is the central
idea of where KDE is going, i am going to have to rethink whether or not i
want it any more. From my point of view, it won’t be KDE any more. I
want a desktop that is as competent (does the various tasks well) as
KDE3.5, with each new capability smoothly grafted on. Not “Hey user, this
file is normally for doing this, here is the app you will use.”

#2

It’s my impression of KDE, that while they are adapting to a new world order, they are also providing support for users who prefer a more traditional interface. Gnome 3 seems to go further in forcing users into the new style, even if they don’t want it. But then, again, future versions of gnome 3 might provide more options.

For the present, I’m happy enough with KDE, though I could just as easily go to XFCE if it becomes too bothersome.

#3

This is like StarTrek…
I am loving it. :slight_smile:

Its a more intelligent system that make better use of resources. At least from what i was reading.

#4

kde3… they already buried it
AFAIK the mourning period is over and it’s time to move on

#5

this Plasma Active is a great example for how cool the tecnology behind Plasma really is.

Right now we have two form factors already included in KDE 4: Desktop and Netbook. Because in systemsettings you can choose to use the Desktop or the netbook formfactor.

Plasma Active aims towards tablets - the third formfactor.

So if you want to have a cool desktop environment and you want to have everything consistent - means the same style and maybe (?) apps on your Desktop, your netbook and on the tablet you own, then KDE is the number 1 choice.

result for me: KDE rocks! It is really great what these folks have done in the past few years.

in http://vizzzion.org/blog/2011/04/plasma-active-a-desirable-user-experience-encompassing-the-device-spectrum/

there is some more information on Plasma Active - its awesome

#6

KDE3 isn’t dead yet - I still get regular updates for KDE3 programs. KDE4’s direction is to improve user interaction whatever the interface; current work is focused on ensuring that the interface works well on small form factor devices. That means you may not see those improvements on a desktop computer even when the architecture underneath has changed.

#7

The magical thing about KDE is that they have shown time and again that they can develop amazing technology without stepping on everyone’s toes. They have a Netbook and Mobile UI already, but neither are impeding on the default KDE desktop’s development or capabilities. They find a way for everything to work together and enhance the KDE experience.

I fear that too many people are ignoring just how many good things have come from KDE 4 for short-sighted reasons. They pretend it’s more like Windows than it is, call people Windows lovers just for using it, say it’s too much bling for how much processing power it uses. It’s nowhere near as bad as Windows 7, for instance.

As of late, the speed issues have become far less of an issue, and to a large degree weren’t there to begin with- a lot of the flawed perception of KDE is FUD from Ubuntu users who love Gnome to pieces. The KDE developers have no intentions of abandoning their current direction- only to refine it and make the most modern computing environment available. And I think it’s a shame that so few people recognize how successful they’ve been due to prejudice. @_@ But enough of my ranting.

#8

And I think it’s a shame that so few people recognize how successful they’ve been due to prejudice.

KDE4 is completely unusable, they removed the basiuc functions that were present in KDE3 and broke others, they still cannot get rid of the huge visual artifacts that appear everywhere. They still cannot, and possibly do not want, to reconcile the Plasma and Qt4 styles. They still cannot make Plasma reliable. About what prejudice do you speak?

AFAIK the mourning period is over

From where did you obtain such sacred knowledge?

#9

which basic functions are in KDE3 which are not in KDE4?? Please come up with examples! Which functions are broken in KDE4, but work in KDE3? Examples?

I have installed KDE 3.5.10 some weeks ago because of nostalgic reasons. I didn´t even find a networkmanager to connect to my WLAN!!! Is this the superior functionality of KDE3??? The fact that everything is cluttered somewhere in some hidden menus?? That shortcuts in one menu point to shortcuts in the same menu in KDE3 - is the fact that this is sorted out in KDE4 the "broken functionality?

#10

its no rant, you are right!

+1000000000

#11

Spatial mode in file manager, “storage media” desktop folder, “network places” desktop folder.

Which functions are broken in KDE4, but work in KDE3? Examples?

Spatial mode in Konqueror.

I have installed KDE 3.5.10 some weeks ago because of nostalgic reasons. I didn�t even find a networkmanager to connect to my WLAN!!!

sudo zypper in knetworkmanager. But the wlan module is not compatible with NM 0.8 any more. Anyway it is not needed because Yast provides all necessary functionality.

#12

so this is basic functionality? Has nothing to do with the personal taste of the user? And you can not create a desktop folder? Or 2 or more? Even for media and network places? Of course you can!

I am sure you could get it via desktop effects. Not just for Konqueror, but for all windows, files and applications.

this is actually a great idea! trying to install something from a repo in the internet without network connection…

Yast provides the basic functionality which is NOT included in KDE3. Right. I also remember that this already was the case in 2008, as I started my Linux life with KDE 3.5. The same non-function which shifted me over to Gnome. Days of searching… just because I wanted to read my mails… oh yes, this is superior. For sure

#13

And you can not create a desktop folder? Or 2 or more? Even for media and network places? Of course you can!

If to make a link to /media then one will see in this folder not only drives but also stub folders, no volume, no label, no other properties.

I am sure you could get it via desktop effects. Not just for Konqueror, but for all windows, files and applications.

Spatial file manager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

this is actually a great idea! trying to install something from a repo in the internet without network connection…

This depends on from which source you installed KDE3. You either install it from under another desktop from the repository in which case you already have internet connection, or you install it from LiveDVD (from SUSE Studio) in which case the set of default packages is determined by the creator of that LiveDVD.

Yast provides the basic functionality

I personally never use Network Manager because it is too buggy, unstable and has many other disadvantages. I had problems with it in 2008-2009 under Gnome and decided not to use ever. On my laptop installed KDE3 and Wi-Fi works well. If you want to monitor the status of connection you can use kwifimanager and knemo.

#14

for that there is a information preview in Dolphin.

like I said… basic functionality, that every user needs… but: in Konqueror: Settings → setup Konqueror → file management → tick “open folders in own window” — ah for sure it is not the right spatial mode, its a different one and thats why KDE4 is just a crippled zombie walking around without any use…

I installed it from an additional repo in a running system. And afterwards it was NOT possible to connect the computer to the internet in KDE3. You do not have an internet connection in KDE3, also when you have it already in other desktop environments. So I had to set it up again, in Gnome (the other DE running on this machine) in order to be able to connect to the internet in KDE3. So even if this issue was like you describe it: summary for me is: KDE3 needs the support of other DE´s to set up an internet connection because it is not able to deliver all the dependencies for a connection to the internet on its own.
So I ask you again: what makes it superior over KDE4 then?? So far you just came up with excuses, with special cases, no one ever asks for, which maybe was a feature in KDE3 but nobody misses it… so the next one:

… is also just an excuse. “Ah, I mean… yeah, but I do not use this and this because it has disadvantages, so I can live with the fact that it does not work for 99,9% of all people in the world” - disadvantages? over what?

Summary:

just face it, KDE3 is dead. KDE3 is finished. It is an old technology which maybe was good for its time as it existed, but today there are systems available which beat KDE3 in every term.
KDE3 was not that good as you and other people who just stick to old stuff say. KDE3 was running itself to death. It reached the end of the road. It is good that something new has replaced it. And in my eyes, it is really unfair to say “KDE4 is not as advanced as KDE3 was” because it simply is not true. The KDE devs deserve Kudos, and respect for that what they have done with KDE4. KDE4 in its latest state is simply awesome.
KDE4 is the most advanced desktop environment out there. No matter if some functionalities are missing FOR YOU. If there was a demand from the majority of users for all that stuff you need, I am sure there was already a solution for that.

and

Gnome (with Gnome 3) and also Ubuntu (with Unity) force the user to give up all the functions, he is used to. Just because they (Gnome and Ubuntu) want to have ONE Environment FOR ALL.
So they create a DE for tablets and netbooks, and you have to take it also for your 20 gadzillion inches deskop screen or to die. WTF???

KDE has Plasma… and with that, it is possible to create a desktop environment, a netbook environment and a tablet environment.
No problem at all. Everyone can choose the environment he/she needs. Everything based on the same technology. But different to use, adopted for the special use case.
This is cool, and this is userfriendly.

Whining about KDE3 does not bring it back. Just look forward, not back. The future is in front of you, not behind you!

#15

for that there is a information preview in Dolphin.

Dolphin is not a fully functional file manager, it is a thumb.

in Konqueror: Settings → setup Konqueror → file management → tick “open folders in own window”

It is broken. The checkbox does not affect anything because the code was removed. They simply forgot to remove the dialog in their rage of destruction.

And afterwards it was NOT possible to connect the computer to the internet in KDE3.

I already said: use Yast.

You do not have an internet connection in KDE3, also when you have it already in other desktop environments.

This is a “feature” of Network Manager: you loose connection once you end X Session. And for each DE you need a separate front-end. There is possibly a command-line interface to NM as I heard, but I did not use it ever.

So even if this issue was like you describe it: summary for me is: KDE3 needs the support of other DE�s to set up an internet connection

Wrong. On openSUSE Yast2 has anything you would need to connect Internet through Wi-Fi.

because it is not able to deliver all the dependencies for a connection to the internet on its own.

Not only KDE3 but any other desktop does not depend on Network Manager because not all people use it. Gnome and KDE4 do not depend on NM either.

which maybe was a feature in KDE3 but nobody misses it…

I miss it.

the fact that it does not work for 99,9% of all people in the world

How did you decide that 99,9% people use Network Manager?

disadvantages? over what?

Disadvantages of NM are that it looses connection when changing a DE. That it requires a front-end for each DE without standardised API. That it supports only limited number of DEs. I also encountered with the fact that it does not start the connection automatically under Gnome after boot, does not reconnect on connection loose, forgets passwords after session end etc etc.

just face it, KDE3 is dead. KDE3 is finished.

Just because you did not install your favorite Network Manager with it? :slight_smile:

KDE4 is the most advanced desktop environment out there. No matter if some functionalities are missing FOR YOU. If there was a demand from the majority of users for all that stuff you need, I am sure there was already a solution for that.

If for YOU it is OK, I do not force you to KDE3.

Whining about KDE3 does not bring it back.

Why to bring it back if it is always with us? How could I bring it back if I currently write to you from KDE3?

Or do you mean restoring KDE3 as part of the core openSUSE distro? It was a political decision to remove KDE3. Some people, even developers said that if they remove KDE3 they will bugfix KDE4 better. I personally disagree with this assertion.

Just look forward, not back.

Do you assume KDE4 is somewhat more forward than KDE3?

#16

wrong. further down, in your text you write something about “forceing” and “opinion” - something in this sense. In my opinion, Dolphin is a filemanager.

over here it works. Strange, huh?

I already said: KDE3 needs either the support of other DE´s or other systems, like Yast to bring up full functionality. This is simply s*** - nothing else. Face it, it is just that, nothing more.

I don´t give a ****. If KDE3 is not able to deliver a network interface so that I can set up my connection, it is a FAIL. Thats it. It fails. For me, for every user who does not want to search, to dig around in settings… and what ever. KDE4 has this network interface and I don´t care how it is named and what features it has. It just has to do the job. And, you know what? It actually does the job!
In KDE3 you don´t have it… fail. End of story.

nope. KDE3 depends on a package named smpppd. Which is not installed by default, when you install KDE3. So even having set up the internet connection in Yast2, means that you can not connect to the internet in KDE3. It simply does not get a connection.
So you need to install this package via Gnome or whatever and then it works. This was already the case in 2008. So it still is an epic fail.

that is sad for you, but it is time to move on.

I did not. You did, because you apply all this to one target now: the Networkmanager. You just focus on minor stuff, which is secondary, when you look at the DE as a whole.
KDE4 is superior in all terms of usability it has more functions, is easier to use and so on. So riding Networkmanager to death in this discussion should lead to… what, exactly?

I don´t change DE. You obviously need to because KDE3 can not deliver essential functionality and therefore you need a second DE.
In all systems I used so far since 2008, Networkmanager always started the connection automatically. It never forgot passwords and always reconnected on connection loose…
So your statement tells the world, that you had some problems… for sure, its also KDE4´s fault.

Its not about forcing. Even if you tried to, you wouldn´t succeed. It is because of the randomly whining and lying from old KDe3 users about KDE4.
They (I bet, you also did not test KDE4 in its latest version) do not have any clue about KDE4 but always spread around FUD, that KDE4 is unstable (it is not), slow (it is fast), uses a lot of resources (wrong, it uses less than Gnome on my machine) and that it is a castrated system which can not fullfill basic stuff, which is wrong, wrong wrong. I don´t get this. Because KDE 4.0 came out in 2008… and it was not good. Thats true.
Now we have 2011 and we have KDE 4.6.3!! This is three years of development and KDE 4.6.3 has nearly nothing to do anymore with KDE 4.0.
I don´t get it, why people like you still ride this dead horse of “3 years ago it was like that, and I did not look at it recently so it still must be the same” - WTF???

and this decision is right IMO. It is no vandalism, it is PROGRESS = leaving old stuff behind to develop new stuff, to get new stuff better, faster and more reliable than old stuff.

#17

What an incredible thread. I loved kde3.x and if wanted it’s still to be had. There is a sort of spring off project. It’s even mentioned on this forum some where.

As to 4 - Unstable ??? Well I would say that 4.6.0 is close to 3.4/5 in that respect and it’s best to forget the past. This isn’t bad really as I understand there has been a fresh start in many places. It was needed. Software invariably gets to a point where it can’t really be maintained any more especially when there isn’t any real control on who actually works on it. People come and go especially on open source. As far as KDE is concerned there isn’t a THEY. It’s curious that people generally do not realise that. They are inclinded to think it’s some sort of group of people. It isn’t. It can be influenced but the “who” that are in it can vary by the day.

As to facilities and customisation I do not see much difference once they have been found. No doubt there is still the easy app development provided by the framework it provides as well.

Complaining about the eye candy is a bit silly really. Some leave just one effect enabled - show windows. Personally I like them. One is actually useful. It allows me to read the window below the one I’m working in. I also use a standard desktop view. Some of the others can be used on a straight PC but are intended for other devices.

There are numerous general plusses as well. Icon placement for one. Finding facilities can be a bit hit and miss but that’s to be expected really and will sort itself out over time. Ok sizes may now get changed with sliders - so what. One armed bandit style rolling numbers and even direct numerical input can be irritating at times

As to open folder in it’s own window I don’t think many people use it. It’s easier to right click and use that as and when that is needed. However why not be pro active and report it as a bug plus anything else you have noticed. This how things get fixed.

No comment on network settings. My set up via a router was detected on installation. I understand there have been some lower level changes that mostly relate to the network being hot plugged rather than always there and only detected at boot. There has also been some attention for people who use modems. Few long term linux users will have much interest in that who don’t already know how to cope. The K network applet is still there but as I don’t use it I have no idea if it works, works as it did or doesn’t work at all.

I too have one bleat. I can no longer brows anything including a camera with konqueror. I can do the later but no longer with the camera view. That to me is a step backwards. I have also just noticed that icons are always shown even with a detail view - now that is really silly. Unfortunately it’s not a bug.

Gnomish has cropped up in the past. That really is a silly thing to say without giving examples of exactly what aspects are and what the term gnomish means. To me it’s sudo and several other irritations in that direction and the way it looks. Actually the generalities of kde 4 still look much like kde to me. rotfl! And it all fades in and out!

#18

In my opinion, Dolphin is a filemanager.

It is a specialized file manager that supports only navigational mode. Similar to Krusader that supports only panel mode. This is unlike Konqueror in KDE3 which is universal.

over here it works. Strange, huh?

In KDE from 4.0 to 4.6 it did not work. Maybe they fixed it since.

or other systems, like Yast to bring up full functionality.

KDE4 also needs either Yast of NM. NM is not part of KDE4.

If KDE3 is not able to deliver a network interface so that I can set up my connection, it is a FAIL. Thats it. It fails.

Can KDE4 or Gnome deliver it without NM or Yast?

KDE3 depends on a package named smpppd.

smpppd is in no way needed to set up internet connection. It is completely not necessary. It is used only by kinternet to quickly control the connection from a non-administrative account. KDE4’s qinternet also depents on this package so there is no difference with KDE3 here.

Which is not installed by default, when you install KDE3.

This just means that you did not install KDE3 completely because kinternet depends on smpppd. If you had installed kinternet you would have smpppd installed.
If you installed KDE3 from a LiveDVD such as this you would have kinternet installed by default.

but it is time to move on.

Who should move on and where?

KDE4 is superior in all terms of usability it has more functions, is easier to use and so on. So riding Networkmanager to death in this discussion should lead to… what, exactly?

Can KDE4 connect Wi-Fi without NetworkManager or Yast/ifup?

You obviously need to because KDE3 can not deliver essential functionality and therefore you need a second DE.

You probably know better than me? :slight_smile:

So your statement tells the world, that you had some problems… for sure, its also KDE4�s fault.

I never used KDE4 so this is for sure not related to KDE4 :slight_smile: Those times back I used Gnome.

I bet, you also did not test KDE4 in its latest version

Why if I know they did not implement the functionality I need and appearance I like?
Anyway I tried to logon in a KDE4.6 session but spotted that the bottom border of all menus remains on the screen even after menu disappears. I do not consider a DE that has such huge artifacts in any sense usable. Although the KDE4 devs will for sure blame Xorg or the video drivers.

slow (it is fast), uses a lot of resources

Well I do not insist it is slow. I have enough powerful desktop to not to bother about such things.

3 years ago it was like that, and I did not look at it recently so it still must be the same

I looked at it this summer at version 4.3 and also briefly at 4.6. I spotted no changes other than a new menu border bug which was not present in 4.3. Anyway you are right, screenshots are enough for me to conclude that I do not like it.

leaving old stuff behind to develop new stuff

…a tactic which leads to vibrations around zero point

to get new stuff better, faster and more reliable than old stuff.

If it was better and more reliable we would not use KDE3 still.

#19

Ansus, you maybe have problems with KDE4. This is unfortunate. I and a lot of other users do not have the problems you have. You need stuff, that I don´t need or want… I need stuff that you don´t need or want.

But the point is: why are you and other folks still riding the dead horse of “KDE4 is ****”? Why don´t you just use your KDE3 or Trinity or whatever and do your stuff and thats it? No, instead of this, you pop up randomly and tell other people how bad and how useless KDE4 is, knowing that it is not true for most of all these KDE4 users.

You will not change anything with that. The developers of KDE will not stop KDE4 and reactivate KDE3 just because some folks randomly whine around over KDE4. You are driving on a dead end road. So please do what you want and what you need, work on this Trinity and make it superior to everything, if you need that. If not: fine for me.

The starter of this threat brought up a report about Plasma Active, which is base of a new user interface of KDE for tablets. I am quite sure that you did not get the things behind the scene, namley that with Plasma you can develop different user interfaces which all base on the same technology. So you do not need to press-fit one user interface for all use cases. With that, one can have KDE everywhere without sacrificing usability. In my opinion this is great. In yours? Bad? Why? Because it is not KDE3?

#20

namley that with Plasma you can develop different user interfaces which all base on the same technology

My impression from the very beginning was that Plasma was intended for mobile market, especially, tablets and netbooks. It surely was not intended for desktop use.

Bad? Why?

Actually I do not bother about tablets. I just want a normal desktop DE. Unfortunately somebody decided that Linux should concede desktops and concentrate on mobile devices as a growing market. That’s why we got Gnome Shell, Unity and Plasma. But I do not plan to install a mobile phone OS on my desktop just because there are more mobile phones than computers in the world and somebody decided that this market is more attracting.