KDE - Apper vs. YaST

English Applications
#21

Then use zypper for your system admin. YaST SM also gives conflicts for updates unless one mitigates some of those with a setting. Apper is GUI for end users. Zypper is suitable for system administrators and not a GUI.

This has been discussed many times, here and on the mailing list, involving others making that very same point i.e addressing different types of user. Yet some posters (protesters mainly) conveniently ignore this, and do not qualify their opinions. IIRC there have been patches (maybe only one) recently to bring them in line on conflicts.

So what updates were you updating when the conflicts occured(?) I used Apper for all the standard updates for my system, plus Packman, and a couple of other additional repos (low number of infrequent updates). Not one conflict, I would have expected a few, but none. Maybe your setup is just more complex, and zypper gives you more control.

#22

I disagree. Apper should provide notification and allow me the choice to have it update immediately. Why would you wish to remove a choice that others wish to keep?

Apper requires PackageKit. Without PackageKit, how will you improve the future user experience for acquiring software packages on this distro (independently of DE installed)?

#23

Nothing prevents other distros from using zypper and YaST and i believe both are openSOURCED :slight_smile:

#24

On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:46:01 +0000, consused wrote:

> I disagree. Apper should provide notification and allow me the choice to
> have it update immediately. Why would you wish to remove a choice that
> others wish to keep?

I didn’t say it couldn’t launch an updater, but to have three apps that
do updates in different ways is a bad idea.

> Apper requires PackageKit. Without PackageKit, how will you improve the
> future user experience for acquiring software packages on this distro
> (independently of DE installed)?

PackageKit is often the root of update problems. If it were my call, I’d
dump it and have one backend piece that manages the updates, and then
have a plugin or API that allows a notification applet to hook into it.

There’s no need to have multiple ways of updating a system. What’s
needed is one, stable, consistent tool.

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#25

On 03/14/2013 01:26 PM, consused pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
> hendersj;2535020 Wrote:
>> It’s been my experience that apper doesn’t work as well as zypper for
>> updates. I end up with package resolution conflicts with apper (for
>> example), but not with zypper.
> Then use zypper for your system admin. YaST SM also gives conflicts for
> updates unless one mitigates some of those with a setting. Apper is GUI
> for end users. Zypper is suitable for system administrators and not a
> GUI.
>
>
YaST SM is also GUI based and can be in run level 3, oh wait the devs
did away with run levels as they were to difficult to understand and
use. Anyhow zypper and YaST SM can be used in a non-desktop environment
where apper cannot. And I don’t appreciate apper locking out zypper or
YaST SM when I want to search for a package or install one via one-click.

As I said my opinion which I am entitled to. You use what you are
comfortable with and I’ll use what I like.

Ken

#26

On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:26:01 +0000, consused wrote:

> hendersj;2535020 Wrote:
>>
>> It’s been my experience that apper doesn’t work as well as zypper for
>> updates. I end up with package resolution conflicts with apper (for
>> example), but not with zypper.
> Then use zypper for your system admin. YaST SM also gives conflicts for
> updates unless one mitigates some of those with a setting. Apper is GUI
> for end users. Zypper is suitable for system administrators and not a
> GUI.
>
> This has been discussed many times, here and on the mailing list,
> involving others making that very same point i.e addressing different
> types of user. Yet some posters (protesters mainly) conveniently ignore
> this, and do not qualify their opinions. IIRC there have been patches
> (maybe only one) recently to bring them in line on conflicts.
>
> So what updates were you updating when the conflicts occured(?) I used
> Apper for all the standard updates for my system, plus Packman, and a
> couple of other additional repos (low number of infrequent updates). Not
> one conflict, I would have expected a few, but none. Maybe your setup is
> just more complex, and zypper gives you more control.

I’m glad it works for you.

A lot of people have problems with apper/PackageKit, and the general
recommendation that’s proven to work is to dump it. That’s been a
recommendation from users here for several versions.

My underlying point is that it’s OK to disagree about it - it’s not OK,
though, to accuse someone of spreading FUD when it’s not FUD, but
information based on many peoples’ experience.

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#27

Opensourcing does remove some hurdles, but it doesn’t make a piece of software “fit for purpose” with respect to another distro’s requirements. Apart from the fact that YaST is much more than Software Management with libzypp and the zypper tool, something must be preventing other distros from using libzypp/zypper and maybe YaST SM. Anyone like to suggest what that might be?

#28

Don’t know if this counts as a threadjack, but since everyone is debating the merits of apper I’m curious, why didn’t they use the ubuntu software centre code and just rename is suse software centre? I tried their software centre when I tried Ubuntu 12.04 and it was awesome. Reminded me of the google play store and apples app store, but better in many ways. I just ask because it sounds like apper is a fairly new invention… was the software centre not around yet, or is it licensed under the contributor nonsense I read about where every patch you submit belongs to canonical? Even then a fork should have been possible. I’m guessing it was considered and rejected, but I’d be interested to read about why that is.

#29

That’s neither here nor there.

A lot of people have problems with apper/PackageKit, and the general
recommendation that’s proven to work is to dump it. That’s been a
recommendation from users here for several versions.

Could you be more specific. Those who dumped it for 12.2 release will have difficulty substantiating your claim.
I’m not alone in testing and verifying it works on 12.2, and now we are on 12.3.
Whose recommendation? Backed by the openSUSE Project?

Thank you for allowing me the right to disagree.

#30

It’s very topical and connected more to PackageKit, whereas Apper is just a front end to it. I think PackageKit will possibly lead to software centre facilities. Apper/PackageKit is part of KDE’s approach to package management and their direction of travel, so that means openSUSE is not going it alone.

I’ve heard the Ubuntu solution is popular, but from your comments it doesn’t sound open enough for the openSUSE project, and therefore a major issue. If considered, not for very long I guess. These days, openSUSE doesn’t really do much software development within. So PackageKit would service both KDE & Gnome as its distro and DE independent.

#31

On 2013-03-15 00:06, consused wrote:
> Whose recommendation? Backed by the openSUSE Project?

Backed by many here.

And perhaps I count as part of the project, having an opensuse.org
address :stuck_out_tongue:

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4, with Evergreen, x86_64 “Celadon” (Minas Tirith))

#32

Many is an unspecified number. You can always count nay-sayers and protesters. Its more difficult to count the users getting on with it and enjoying some extra productivity.

Do you remember the early reactions to PulseAudio? Very similar: “Disable it”, “Don’t use it”, and “You don’t need it”. Now it’s everywhere. Then we had Plymouth, several distros have it, and now Grub2 to be concerned about. So many bits of troublesome software. I’m surprised anyone has time to worry about li’l ole Apper, with all that uncertainty to worry about. :stuck_out_tongue:

“Apper and friends” are still in the release, and still in KDE system settings, how come?

And perhaps I count as part of the project, having an opensuse.org
address :stuck_out_tongue:

Whatever that means. It counts with @dd as he posted about it at least once. Is there a special club at this address? Oh, and the English, we like our clubs. lol!

Is it the address of the “Spanish Inquisition” where I’m about to be condemned as a heretic?

#33

On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:06:01 +0000, consused wrote:

> hendersj;2535140 Wrote:
>>
>> I’m glad it works for you.
> That’s neither here nor there.

Well, if it works for you, then use it - and feel free to recommend it
based on your experiences. Just like those who have had problems with it
are free to recommend their solutions based on their experiences.

>> A lot of people have problems with apper/PackageKit, and the general
>> recommendation that’s proven to work is to dump it. That’s been a
>> recommendation from users here for several versions.
> Could you be more specific. Those who dumped it for 12.2 release will
> have difficulty substantiating your claim.

No, I can’t be more specific. There are many threads about this; I
suggest searching them. All I remember is that many people had problems
with it, and I’ve avoided using it for those reasons myself. I’m sorry
that I can’t cite you chapter & verse.

> I’m not alone in testing and verifying it works on 12.2, and now we are
> on 12.3.
> Whose recommendation? Backed by the openSUSE Project?

The recommendation of several users here. Whom would you like to have in
the project “back” it? I’m not sure what you mean by that. Clearly, if
they thought there was a serious problem, they’d not include it - they
don’t, so it’s included.

But often times the experiences of users doesn’t match with the
intentions of developers.

> Thank you for allowing me the right to disagree.

It’s the experience of many users here. There have been several threads
about it over the past couple of years.

And you certainly can disagree. Just don’t be disagreeable in your
disagreement (if you know what I mean).

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#34

On Fri, 15 Mar 2013 03:26:01 +0000, consused wrote:

…]

That’s enough.

If you want to talk about the issues, that’s fine. If you’re going to
start getting personal, then you need to take a break.

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

#35

Hi, didn’t want to start new thread as found this one related

Just installed 12.3, Yast Update shows there are no updates, but “something” invisible gives me a notification that there are 48 new updates and starts Apper Updates. I’m curious, why Yast does not detect those updates? And who is this “something” that gives me notification, as there is no Apper applet running on a panel (like in 12.2)?

Attaching screenshot:

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6434/73339514.26/0_7f6b2_cb54a987_XXL.png

Thanks

#36

I know that Fedora are on the way to a new package manager, DNF. He uses openSUSE’s libsolv. But for some reasons they won’t use zypp, as explained here:

Features/DNF - FedoraProject

#37

No solid proof listed there . They are just being paranoid.:\

#38

I think apper is not obeying “vendor change” rules or flags or whatever it is.
Can you check zypper lu and zypper lp
source :- https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Zypper_usage#Update_management

#39

Well put. That’s my experience and attitude too.

#40

> Attaching screenshot: [image:
> http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6434/73339514.26/0_7f6b2_cb54a987_XXL.png]

perhaps a local Apper champion will help you solve this non-problem
(must be a non-problem since Apper champions have had no problems
since 12.2 came out.)

though, LOTs of dev discussion and work happened still trying to fix
it prior to the 12.3 release . . .

–
dd