Important Discoveries and Unifying Ideas

Significant Discoveries, Revelations, and Worthwhile Ideals

The open source community is a form of anarchy, which is its strength: But the community needs solidarity to fulfill its potential and to cast off the shackles of disorganization and ineffectiveness.

To accomplish its potential, a means of unifying the community behind worthwhile ideals need be devised, and a method of disseminating important discoveries and revelations devised and implemented.
Indeed, this was the foundation of the community when GNU established the Free Software Foundation.

“All history hath shewn that mankind is more disposed to suffer than to alter or abolish those forms to which it has become accustomed.” Declaration of Independence (1776)

I logged onto this forum today to share what I think is an important revelation with others, only to realize that the form to which we have become accustomed does not accommodate that end very well;
wherefore, I have submitted this message in the hope that it will germinate an idea that will alter those forms to which we have become accustomed… as GNU’s novel idea for free software once did.

For the novice attempting to build a linux system, it is a daunting and perilous task. Even for the seasoned veteran there exists many potential pitfalls, and they might become afflicted with cranial rectalitis on any given day or hour:
Wouldn’t it be great if there was a way for the community to share its collective knowledge and assist that intimidated novice in that first linux build! Can you imagine the quality and power that would be placed at that novice’s fingertips in only a couple of hours? Even the most knowledgeable expert could benefit greatly. Such sessions could be recorded and would add greatly to our knowledge base and how to tutorials: Especially if the truly enlightening sessions were posted prominently.

I spent 5 years in college studying computers, and have spent another 5 or so years attempting to build linux systems in my spare time, albeit mostly with inadequate, obsolete junk computer components.
I’ve remained like the optimist child in the room full of horse dung… looking for the pony!
Yesterday, I attempted (once again) to install opensuse 11.1 on a true dream machine as far as hardware goes. I was attempting to set it up to run vmware, so two kernels were installed to /boot, along with the debug applications in .tar.gz form. For the first time in my life, I choose to use LVM instead of hard partitioning. After all the hundreds of builds, I still do not consider myself to be a partitioning expert, but I have learned a thing or three about it.

I took the defaults for LVM, thinking that I would be easily able to allocate space if needed. The default settings allocated only 20 Meg on the /boot. I was unable to update more than 1 update at a time, and even after much persistence there was one that I could not do. I kept getting the error message “Aborted by User” and the yast2 system update program would exit. I used the yast2 software update program to attempt installing the last update, and it failed, but gave me a much more descriptive error message… which told me that I was out of space on /boot!

I moved some files out of /boot and installed the last update without a hitch. This may not seem like it is that important, but it revealed that 20 Meg is not sufficient for today’s installs. I see as I look, that many are loosing their systems and incurring much frustration with linux because of this.

When I tried to share this revelation with the community, I find that the forms to which we have become accustomed to not lend themselves toward that end, but rather they tend toward obscuring the discovery by making any post I can make like finding a needle in a hay stack.

I hope that you will read this, and attempt to alter or abolish the forms to which we have become accustomed so that the open source community will be unified by lofty ideals and easily able to learn of important discoveries and revelations.

Fiat Justicia Ruat Caeleum

ploink!


.~.
/V
/( )\ natural_pilot
^^-^^

On the other hand many embedded Linux systems do fine with much less space so you can’t generalise about Linux like that.

And why have you got a separate /boot anyway? There are only a few situations nowadays where /boot cannot be merged into /.

Finally you have posted this in the wrong forum. This is for comments and suggestions about the board. I think you wanted Soapbox.

Oh man, if you are going to write a literary screed every time you hit a little issue, it’s gonna be a long road for you. :stuck_out_tongue:

say whaaaaat???.. :wink:

Very disturbing…

guadaloupi adjusted his/her AFDB on Thursday 18 Jun 2009 21:16 to write:

> Fiat Justicia Ruat Caeleum

Shirley that should be:

Fiat Justicia Ruat Caelum
?

Oh dear the sky is falling again…

Will my AFDB save me?


Mark

Nullus in verba
Nil illegitimi carborundum

No, this was a meta-complaint, about our forms and important discovery dissemination.

A slightly hyperbolic rant about LVM getting the size of /boot wrong, which is what you’re thinking of, would have belonged in soapbox.

:wink:

guadaloupi: did you check on bugzilla? That’s the place to get stuff done - or maybe openfate. This 'ere has the form of a discussion board / community helpdesk.

I read it as a complaint about forums in general. We can’t do much about that; forums and search tools are far from ideal. Even mighty search engines are no use if you have no handle on what you are supposed to be searching for in the first place. That’s why we still need good old wetware to try to interpret user queries. If he had a specific suggestion for improving this forum then it would be a valid posting.

> Will my AFDB save me?

if yours won’t mine would…the grocery store has a selection of
‘disposable’ aluminum cook/serve ware…many times thicker than
aluminum foil, but still inexpensive enough to use once…

several different sizes and shapes–some for lasagna, others chicken
sized shaped, etc…

the chicken size was easily formed into an industrial strength,
lifetime usable AFDB!!

i just love that SECURE feeling it give me…


.~.
/V
/( )\ natural_pilot
^^-^^

Can’t never did anything. You did get the point about forums being inefficient for communicating. So how can we make things easier to find and better organized?
I did check bugzilla, hence the post.
The kernel and grub, etc are stored in /boot; numerous problems being caused if it runs out of space,like when a new kernel is installed. That was one point. Another was to get people thinking about how to improve things.
I stand corrected on my spelling.rotfl!

guadaloupi wrote:
> Can’t never did anything.

“can’t” did a thing–“can’t” did the thing named no…

even an idiot can perform the wonderful function of being a bad example…

> You did get the point about forums being
> inefficient for communicating. So how can we make things easier to find
> and better organized?

asking questions is one thing, actually making suggestions is another,
and less helpful thing…

however, i now await your enlightening suggestions…this IS the forum
for those…

> I did check bugzilla, hence the post.

this is not the forum in which to seek technical support…

> The kernel and grub, etc are stored in /boot; numerous problems being
> caused if it runs out of space,like when a new kernel is installed.

ignoring the out-of-placeness: just how little space did you provide?

> That was one point. Another was to get people thinking about how to
> improve things.

oh wow! gosh…no one here ever thought about trying to improve things!

i certainly am glad you came along to lead us out of the wilderness of
unimproved things.


.~.
/V
/( )\ natural_pilot
^^-^^

Start by asking direct questions in the appropriate forum instead of waxing all philosophical and obtuse.

For example: Subject: /boot runs out of space Body: My /boot runs out of space when I try to install extra kernels on 11.1. I have a x86_64 architecture CPU, and I can provide more details about the hardware or software if requested.

A minor correction to your Colophon, (Κολοφών):
Fiat Justicia Ruat Caeleum, I think you wanted IT to have said: Fiat Justitia(sp) Ruat Caeleum. ’ just a minor note.

I opened this thread in an attempt to strike up what I hoped would be an interesting and productive conversation. The reaction of this community was at best disconcerting and discouraging. It was perhaps to lengthy, and I misspelled something.
It was submitted under comments and suggestions, and I received flak for submitting it in the “wrong place”. To date there has been little positive feedback from it. I note that I took the defaults under LVM which allocated only 20 meg for the /boot partition, and does not provide for easy reallocation of space, and that no one has made any comment about how reallocation of space can be accomplished. I also note that the kernal alone for the virtual machine requires 56 meg, and that the 20 meg default space is insufficient whenever there have been several updates of the kernel even for a minimal kernel. I note that running out of space in /boot will cause booting problems. I suggest allocating a minimum of 250 meg, and that the default allocation be changed to correct this very severe and problematic deficiency.
I am surprised that I haven’t received a bunch of snide remarks about suggesting the possibility of establishing a method for experienced users to assist a novice in doing a build, and recording those sessions to help others learn.
I look at my original post and the content and tone is far better than the content and tone of the comments that were generated. At a minimum, there are some ideas worth discussing therein, but this community has not engaged in a worthwhile discussion of any of them.
Does the problem lie with my original post, or does it lie with the attitude of those who responded?
I could make some suggestions as to how the system for storing and retrieving information can be improved, but should I?

@guadaloupi
I don’t think anyone was taking your post very seriously. Clearly demonstrated by the comments.:open_mouth:

> It was submitted under comments and suggestions, and I received flak
> for submitting it in the “wrong place”.

persons usually able to read can understand “Forums Feedback > Forums
Comments/Suggestions: Comments and/or suggestions about the openSUSE
forums” to mean that this forum is the place to make comments and/or
suggestions about the openSUSE forums themselves…

> I note that I took the defaults under LVM
> which allocated only 20 meg for the /boot partition, and does not
> provide for easy reallocation of space,

questions on the size of various partitions needed for a successful
install are better placed in "openSUSE Help > Install/Boot/Login:
Questions about installation, login, boot issues, partitioning, file
systems, software that runs at boot (GRUB, LILO, boot scripts) which
is easily found here: http://forums.opensuse.org/install-boot-login/

post your question over there about running out of space after
allotting 20 meg to your root partition and i’ll point you to the
“official hardware requirements” of “Hard disk: At least 500 MB for
minimal system; 3 GB recommended for standard system” found at
http://www.novell.com/products/opensuse/sysreqs.html, but then i’d
note that most folks here generally allocate 20 GB to the root and 40
GB or more to /home and data directories…

> and that no one has made any
> comment about how reallocation of space can be accomplished.

wrong forum (as were several of your comments)…

> I am surprised that I haven’t received a bunch of snide remarks about
> suggesting the possibility of establishing a method for experienced
> users to assist a novice in doing a build, and recording those sessions
> to help others learn.

it exists already…all one has to do is look (prior to posting):
http://tinyurl.com/3elgj3
http://tinyurl.com/nt7weo
http://tinyurl.com/6jwtg9
http://tinyurl.com/ktvdr9
http://tinyurl.com/579ftj

> Does the problem lie with my original post, or does it lie with the
> attitude of those who responded?

my humble opinion is: your post might have been better received had it
been broken into more discrete parts:

  • one to this forum with your questions about the forums

  • another to this forum with suggestions on improving the forums (but,
    it is generally best to actually USE them before suggesting their change)

  • a third to the Install/Boot/Login forum with your questions about
    hard disk installation problems

  • a fourth [to Community > General Chit-Chat: A friendly place to
    converse about your adventures with openSUSE, your weekend, your boss,
    your new car, and generally stuff that doesn’t fit somewhere else (and
    we must ask: PLEASE do not post help questions here))] where you could
    to go into your long winded soliloquy on open source and its
    relationship to anarchy…

-and a fifth [to Community > Soapbox: Strong opinions about mostly
anything (no political or religious content)] where you could bitch
all you wish about being so misunderstood, maligned and persecuted by
the folks here, for no good reason…

> I could make some suggestions as to how the system for storing and
> retrieving information can be improved, but should I?

i’m sure your intention is to help us be as good as we can possibly
be, and almost as good as you are…i can hardly contain my joy!

but, from the way you popped in here i’d guess it is more your
intention to troll for Redmond and stir us up, than anything else.


brassy

Thanks Brassy…I was reading this thread wondering how the heck anyone
is supposed to respond. I think you did a great job.


Kim (7/8/2009 1:54:45 PM Mountain)

welcome…someone needed to try to set him right, if that was
needed…or out him as a pure antagonist, if that is the case…

you can track his IP, i wonder if it is near a redwood?


brassy

I’m more inclined to believe he’s just one of those people who is inclined to overgeneralise and ramble. If he had just posted a simple query about the boot partition size he would have a threadful of answers by now.

Pompous eccentricity came to mind.