No, I disagree.
KDE4 will not live as long as Leap, as far as I know. No maintenance, no fixes, no security patches.
Plasma5 was pretty much forced onto the Leap team by the KDE team’s decisions, openSUSE team really had no choice.
Again, I disagree. There wasn’t really an option.
AFAIK the development-guideline for Leap was “solidity first”.
No.
The development guideline was to take things from SLE12 SP1 if possible, or else use the Tumbleweed/Factory versions.
SLE12 doesn’t offer KDE, and Tumbleweed uses Plasma5 as default since last April.
Respecting this simple rule would have excluded Plasma 5 from being the default DE.
And using an abandoned, unmaintained desktop (that’s even starting to fall apart already) as default DE would follow that simple rule?
Perhaps we should have shipped Leap 42.1 without any KDE desktop then, right?
P5 should have been given more time to mature in Tumbleweed and then - if really up to the task - could have been considered for Leap 42.2.
It is up to the task for most people since a while.
And it “matured” as default desktop in Tumbleweed since a year already, and even longer elsewhere.
Just take a look at the headline of this thread. How come people are looking for ways to downgrade from P5?
Because there are always people that don’t like something new. In some cases even only because it is not exactly the same as the old.
I find it a bit amusing anyway that KDE4 was being bashed for years (for being unstable, unusable, and what-not), and now suddenly as it is being replaced by Plasma5 it’s the “best thing ever”…
Of course there are people that have problems as well (mostly related to graphics drivers IMHO), but that’s not really too different to the situation with KDE4 either (mostly in the early times, but also still now in some cases).
Not here. Still alive and kicking. And very reliable.
It even crashes now and then here on my 13.2 system.
Also, that’s not the point.
The point is that it’s officially unmaintained and abandoned by KDE since August, and even the months before nobody worked on it really.
Another problem is that more and more applications are being ported to KF5 and don’t integrate that well with KDE4 any more.
I’m talking about things like service menus, thumbnailers and device actions here.
Investing more time and manpower here would have saved time and effort elsewhere.
Feel free to volunteer your time and manpower then.
But one thing: as should be clear already from this thread, KDE4 (the desktop) is actually still included in Leap 42.1, and can be installed and used.
There’s just no effort spent (by openSUSE) to actively support it and keep it working.
Things that fail to build are dropped from Factory (which doesn’t affect Leap 42.1 of course).
You have to lock Plasma5 though, as it will replace it to cater for upgrades from previous versions.
I’m not complaining, I’ve simply stated my opinion concerning the suitability of Plasma 5 as the default-desktop for Leap.
And the vast amount of views that this thread (“How to downgrade plasma?”) is getting speaks for itself.
plasma 5 is not LEAP, yes plasma 5 has issues with some hardware but the Desktop is not the OS,
For desktop-systems the basic system plus the desktop is the OS. And if openSuse choose Plasma 5 as the default desktop, they have to live with the fact that this combination is perceived as being Leap.
I guess this is why Leap-users are reporting problems with Plasma 5 in this forum and not in the KDE-forum.
if you want kde4 it’s still there just replace plasma 5 with kde4base packages.
The workaround that’s been described here is - in my experience - neither simple nor is it a clean replacement. What I got (and I did it from Xfce after a clean install) was a mixture of Plasma 5 and KDE4 which I think may be more problematic than Plasma 5 alone.
The reason kde4 is not an official desktop choice is because the kde devs abandoned it for an unpolished project so maybe your anger is misplaced try here https://forum.kde.org/
The only reason why KDE4 is not the default desktop for Leap is because openSuse decided so. That’s all. Don’t blame that decision on KDE.
It would have been possible to offer KDE4 as default and Plasma 5 as an option, like in 13.2. Right?
BTW: I’m not (yet) angry.
The openSUSE team is great the same day kde released the plasma 5.6 source we had working LEAP packages, you want kde4 they provide kde4 packages even tho they didn’t plan to, you want kde3 it’s there, or go the gtk way you can try LXDE/Xfce/Mate/cinnamon/gnome/…
There is no doubt that the openSuse-team is great. That’s why I’ve been using oS for so long now.
And perhaps I’ve overlooked that official openSUSE-maintained KDE4-repo for Leap? Would be nice if you provided the URL here.
In addition, I suggest openSuse publishes an official HowTo for a way to choose KDE4 in the first place or for a clean switch from Plasma 5 to KDE4.
I guess lots of (want to be) Leap-users would welcome this.
There’s always an option.
No.
The development guideline was to take things from SLE12 SP1 if possible, or else use the Tumbleweed/Factory versions.
SLE12 doesn’t offer KDE, and Tumbleweed uses Plasma5 as default since last April.
I remember that differently: stability/reliability over “newness”.
And using an abandoned, unmaintained desktop (that’s even starting to fall apart already) as default DE would follow that simple rule?
Until 42.2 - why not? Or do you consider 13.1 or 13.2 shaky just because they have KDE4 as default? Or any other (long-term) distribution that’s offering KDE4?
It is up to the task for most people since a while.
Maybe just because they had no choice. And what percentage is “most”?
And it “matured” as default desktop in Tumbleweed since a year already, and even longer elsewhere.
From my own experience and what I’m reading here and elsewhere: still not long enough.
Because there are always people that don’t like something new. In some cases even only because it is not exactly the same as the old.
I find it a bit amusing anyway that KDE4 was being bashed for years (for being unstable, unusable, and what-not), and now suddenly as it is being replaced by Plasma5 it’s the “best thing ever”…
Oh come on. That’s the typical low-level-statement disparaging everybody as “retro-die-hards” who dare to critisize something “new” - even if they substantiate their critique with sound reasoning, facts or bug reports.
It’s the easy but not very intelligent way out: You alienate those people (users!) and you waste opportunities to improve your offering.
It even crashes now and then here on my 13.2 system.
Try 13.1. It also has a better Yast than 13.2. Ouch!
Feel free to volunteer your time and manpower then.
I’ve made my contributions to Leap.
But one thing: as should be clear already from this thread, KDE4 (the desktop) is actually still included in Leap 42.1, and can be installed and used.
There’s just no effort spent (by openSUSE) to actively support it and keep it working.
Things that fail to build are dropped from Factory (which doesn’t affect Leap 42.1 of course).
You have to lock Plasma5 though, as it will replace it to cater for upgrades from previous versions.
In conclusion: Leap 42.1 is not for me. Let’s leave it at that.
Yeah, as I said, one option would have been to drop KDE completely.
You’re right though that there really would have been another option:
Somebody stepping up and maintaining KDE4. But nobody did, including you.
Raymond Wooninck (from the openSUSE KDE team) actually wrote a mail on the factory list nearly a year ago (shortly after the default has been switched in Tumbleweed) and offered to copy all KDE4 packages to a separate repo that volunteers could maintain/make them coinstallable if wanted (and then even push back to Factory if they met the standards).
But there was NOT A SINGLE reply (other than a mail from me).
So it is simple really: the openSUSE KDE team decided to switch to Plasma5, because that was the only (upstream supported) option.
But openSUSE is a community distribution. Everybody can join in and work on something.
In this case nobody did, so all that complaining doesn’t help either.
I remember that differently: stability/reliability over “newness”.
For the base system.
But not desktops.
And again, SLE12 does not have KDE at all. So where to take it from if not Tumbleweed?
SLE11 offers KDE 4.3, would probably not have been a good decision either to use that.
Until 42.2 - why not? Or do you consider 13.1 or 13.2 shaky just because they have KDE4 as default? Or any other (long-term) distribution that’s offering KDE4?
No, I don’t. I actually still use 13.2.
But 13.2 also use older versions of other software. Some things just cannot be built with newer versions, and newer versions of other software (including kdelibs4 which is still updated) can introduce new problems in KDE(4).
E.g. if a new NetworkManager version comes out, somebody has to adapt KDE’s NetworkManager applet to this. Upstream won’t. (And exactly plasma-nm reallydoesn’t build at the moment for Leap 42.1 in my repo)
And there are many more cases like this.
Maybe just because they had no choice.
They do have a choice: stay with 13.2 or 13.1 which are still supported/maintained too (the latter only via Evergreen meanwhile though).
And what percentage is “most”?
And for what percentage is it “not up to the task”?
Which exact task anyway?
From my own experience and what I’m reading here and elsewhere: still not long enough.
On my systems it is running absolutely stable since much longer.
As indicated, I actually see Plasma4 crashing more lately than Plasma5 (I do have both installed).
Doesn’t make it unusable though, just to be clear.
Oh come on. That’s the typical low-level-statement disparaging everybody as “retro-die-hards” who dare to critisize something “new” - even if they substantiate their critique with sound reasoning, facts or bug reports.
But it is often true.
OTOH, similar things can be said about KDE4, and there are (many) bug reports or other “facts” as evidence too.
It’s the easy but not very intelligent way out: You alienate those people (users!) and you waste opportunities to improve your offering.
The handful of (unpaid) volunteers that package KDE in openSUSE in their spare time just cannot offer, support and maintain both.
As I already mentioned, we did keep KDE4 in Leap 42.1 on a “without guarantee” basis though.
And I personally even offer a repo with a full KDE4 (and all KDE4 applications that are no longer available otherwise) and (a coinstallable) Plasma5+KF5+apps, also for Leap 42.1.
Before you ask, that’s not an option for the official distribution though, as it required dirty hacks and heavy patching to get it to work.
Try 13.1. It also has a better Yast than 13.2. Ouch!
So, do you want to imply that 13.2 ia bad already as well, despite it being shipped with KDE4 as default (and only supported) KDE desktop?
I still very much prefer 13.2 over 13.1, because it has a much newer KDE4, but also for other reasons.
And I don’t think YaST in 13.1 is “better” in any way either…
I’ve made my contributions to Leap.
Fine.
But apparently not to the KDE(4) packages…
In conclusion: Leap 42.1 is not for me. Let’s leave it at that.
Nobody forces you to use it.
And TBH, I don’t really see a point in this discussion.
The decision to switch to Plasma5 has been made a year ago.
And even if we’d revert that decision, Leap 42.1 has been released 5 months ago too. There’s no way to turn back time.
I knew it! 
Somebody stepping up and maintaining KDE4. But nobody did, including you.
Raymond Wooninck (from the openSUSE KDE team) actually wrote a mail on the factory list nearly a year ago (shortly after the default has been switched in Tumbleweed) and offered to copy all KDE4 packages to a separate repo that volunteers could maintain/make them coinstallable if wanted (and then even push back to Factory if they met the standards).
But there was NOT A SINGLE reply (other than a mail from me).
All before my stint with the project. And now it’s too late, sorry.
For the base system.
But not desktops.
I don’t think so but perhaps a misunderstanding on my side. Comes from the fact that I see base + desktop as a unit. Or what is a rock-solid base-system good for if the desktop is shaky - and vice versa?
To better understand what I mean, just take a close look at line #1 in post #31. Get it?
On my systems it is running absolutely stable since much longer.
As indicated, I actually see Plasma4 crashing more lately than Plasma5 (I do have both installed).
Interesting. Whatever I try, KDE4 simply doesn’t want to crash. Maybe I should write a bug report.
But it is often true.
Like in the case of different backgrounds for different virt. desktops? It’s just convenient to think that way.
Users are smart enough to see whether “new/changed/discarded” really means “better” for them. If so, they happily adopt it. But if not and you just discard complaints as “unwarranted, we know better anyway” or so, you are in trouble. Even mighty MickySoft had to learn that the hard way. You better keep that in mind for openSuse!
So, do you want to imply that 13.2 ia bad already as well, despite it being shipped with KDE4 as default (and only supported) KDE desktop?
No. Where did you read that in my post?
I still very much prefer 13.2 over 13.1, because it has a much newer KDE4, but also for other reasons.
And I don’t think YaST in 13.1 is “better” in any way either…
The Yast software-management-tool in 13.2 is IMO clearly inferior. It doesn’t even have the “update all if newer version available”-option. Luckily, there is the old (and fully translated) X-Version of Yast (and zypper o/c).
Fine.
But apparently not to the KDE(4) packages…
I’m not a jack of all trades.
Nobody forces you to use it.
Good to know.
And TBH, I don’t really see a point in this discussion.
It was you who started it. I just wrote a one-line opinion. It was your reaction to it that brought us here.
So maybe I should complain that I had to spend so much time on this!
Over and out.
Well, the packages are still available on OBS. At least older versions in KDE:Current (which I am going to update in the near future btw).
Another option of course would be to help improve Plasma5 so that it is good enough for everyone (including you).
I don’t think so but perhaps a misunderstanding on my side. Comes from the fact that I see base + desktop as a unit. Or what is a rock-solid base-system good for if the desktop is shaky - and vice versa?
You do know that there is more than one desktop included I hope.
And Plasma5 itself is stable.
Unfortunately there are problems on certain systems, but then even the kernel has problems on some systems.
To better understand what I mean, just take a close look at line #1 in post #31. Get it?
No.
You miss one particular feature in Plasma5.
Bad for you, but not the sole point for openSUSE to base such a decision on.
Interesting. Whatever I try, KDE4 simply doesn’t want to crash. Maybe I should write a bug report.
For me it’s similar with Plasma5.
Although I cannot get KDE4 to crash on purpose either. It just happens randomly.
Again, I don’t want to put KDE4 down here. But it is not perfect either, and it is abandoned by its developers, so nobody is going to fix any bugs in it (unless we would do it ourselves)
Like in the case of different backgrounds for different virt. desktops? It’s just convenient to think that way.
I don’t understand that connection.
That feature is still missing, yes. And apparently your whole “anger” is based on that.
KDE4 never supported different wallpapers for each virtual desktop either btw.
That’s how Plasma was designed right from the start (4.0).
The wallpaper can only be set per activity. And that is still how it is.
What has been added at some point in KDE4 and removed in Plasma5 is the ability to allow different sets of widgets per virtual desktop.
That option implicitly created an extra activity for each virtual desktop, and “connected” them so that the activity was automatically switched whenever you switch the desktop.
Now, you’d have to use different activities explicitly instead of virtual desktops. (there is an activity pager included now that can be used just like the normal VD pager btw, it just switches activities instead of VDs)
But that has been discussed to death in other threads already (and maybe here as well), and as has been mentioned the Plasma developers (David Edmundson in particular) promised to find a solution, i.e. bring back a possibility to use separate wallpapers.
Not that I ever used that, not even in KDE3 where it really was still supported. And I even found that KDE4 option counter-productive, because I do want to have my desktop notes and other desktop applets on all desktops.
That’s irrelevant anyway, but at least it shows that not everybody needs (or even wants) that feature.
Users are smart enough to see whether “new/changed/discarded” really means “better” for them. If so, they happily adopt it. But if not and you just discard complaints as “unwarranted, we know better anyway” or so, you are in trouble. Even mighty MickySoft had to learn that the hard way. You better keep that in mind for openSuse!
You still totally miss the point.
We do not have the resources to keep KDE4 alive on our own.
And it’s also not us that develop KDE/Plasma (any version), so can decide or force what exact features it will have or not.
But then KDE is a community project as well. Anybody can influence its direction to some degree, and contribution (e.g. implementing the feature you miss so much) is always welcome.
No. Where did you read that in my post?
You said I should try 13.1 instead, and even YaST is better there.
The Yast software-management-tool in 13.2 is IMO clearly inferior. It doesn’t even have the “update all if newer version available”-option.
Of course it has. I can post a screenshot if you want to.
Luckily, there is the old (and fully translated) X-Version of Yast (and zypper o/c).
X-Version? What’s that?
Or are you rather talking about the ncurses (i.e. text mode) version?
I’m not a jack of all trades.
And the openSUSE KDE team shall be?
Good to know.
Nobody forces you to use openSUSE at all either, btw.
It was you who started it.
Yeah, right. I wrote three sentences for explanation to defend (or try to explain) what you called “the major design flaw in Leap”.
I shouldn’t have, so sorry…
Btw, two other people replied to you as well, in a similar fashion.
So maybe I should complain that I had to spend so much time on this!
Nobody forced you to do that either.
Over and out.
All right, so I probably should have spared this reply as well.
I don’t think it makes much sense in continuing anyway. It won’t change anything.
Bye.
One final reply from me.
I have tried that, also for KDE4. In my experience this is useless. You can as well talk to a wall. And I know of better ways to waste my time.
You do know that there is more than one desktop included I hope.
And you should know that they are not 1:1 interchangeable. I’ve already tried to bring that home here. Can’t be so difficult to understand.
No.
Alright. That said line illustrates my point that “system + desktop” are perceived as one. Like by this (perhaps inexperienced) user.
You cannot expect from everyone to differentiate between base system and the desktop - especially not if this desktop has been offered as the “default”. In that case problems with the desktop are problems with “Leap”. At least try to understand that.
You miss one particular feature in Plasma5.
Bad for you, but not the sole point for openSUSE to base such a decision on.
What I’m missing in the first place is a reliability that matches that of the basic system.
For me it’s similar with Plasma5.
Although I cannot get KDE4 to crash on purpose either. It just happens randomly.
OK, humor is not understood by everyone. Accepted.
Here’s the revised version for you: I’m not actively trying to crash KDE4, I’m just using it on a daily basis. For a long time now. And I can’t remember even one crash that I could clearly ascribe to KDE4.
I don’t understand that connection.
Read your own post and then my answer. I think the connection is pretty clear.
That feature is still missing, yes. And apparently your whole “anger” is based on that.
Completely wrong, I’m not the one who started this thread. Read what you reply to.
Personally, I don’t care the least about different wallpapers or widgets for different virtual desktops. I don’t need it.
But I can fully understand those who are fuming that it’s gone. Becaused they liked it, got used to it or needed it for their workflow. It was important for them.
And I had similar experiences with other features.
Again: I’m not “angry”. Just disappointed by Leap. My expectations were (perhaps too) high and not fulfilled. Mainly because of the problems with Plasma 5. This is why I wrote my initial comment. And I stand by it: For the first Leap-release, KDE4 would have been the better and obvious choice.
Of course it has. I can post a screenshot if you want to.
Not necessary, I believe you. But I could not find it.
X-Version? What’s that?
Or are you rather talking about the ncurses (i.e. text mode) version?
ncurses, then.
And the openSUSE KDE team shall be?
I think the hallmark of a team is that it consists of more than one person.
Nobody forces you to use openSUSE at all either, btw.
True. And your stupid remark is a good motivator to act accordingly.
I don’t normally get involved in these sorts of discussions, but a couple points are worth making IMO.
First, Leap became usable for me only with the fix for bug 357641 (terminal windows not restored on restart). With that bug fixed, it’s usable, although I do sorely miss the wallpaper per desktop and would very much like to see that fixed.
Second, someone made a comment about users who don’t like change. That is incorrect. (Or more accurately, while there may be some such users, that’s not the relevant issue.) The problem is that users don’t like BREAKAGE. I use KDE because it lets me set up a specific collection of terminal windows across multiple workspaces, once, and then preserves that layout for me when I restart (which happens often when running in a virtual machine on my laptop). That worked in KDE 4 and didn’t with 5, and by my definition that’s breakage. Fortunately as noted above, the 357641 fix dealt with the worst of the problems.
It’s OK for the KDE devs to spend their time on stuff that I couldn’t care less about, which is everything new in plasma 5. It’s NOT OK to break what people were using, with no notice or alternative. That’s one way projects fail, and I’ve seen it over and over in the 45 years I’ve been in this business.
And by the way, saying “if you don’t like it,contribute” is to me in this case just saying “I break it, haha, you fix it”. (“I” being the KDE devs here.) Again, not a good way to get people involved. I should think that the openSUSE team as a whole could be a lot more effective in pressuring KDE to clean up their act than we as individual users.
+1
I don’t like ranting for ranting but i must add my contribution to this discussion.
It’s true that opensuse team is not responsible for KDE’s problems, but they can surely transmit our disappointment for so many malfunctions.
I’ll take a few examples :
- the Misc Fixed font bold/highlight doesn’t work
- the BII windows decorations are gone
- no more possibility to access the favorite apps menu with one click on the desktop
- etc…
Being a 10 years opensuse user, i remember installing 13.1 and it was very easy.
And here, i have no possibilities for a new good release
And i am stuck with evergreen, because the main problem (among others like fail2ban and others), is KDE/plasma which has such an odd behavior/bugs. And lacks so many useful features.
I know some will say “you should have reported a bug, coded your feature, and so on…”
But i can also say that i don’t like this new release.
And i see that i am not the only one.
can a mod split this thread at
https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/512508-How-to-downgrade-plasma?p=2771739#post2771739
and move it to the Soapbox
I must say, I agree with this.>:)
We’re watching, and it may be closed if those just wanting to rant don’t take it elsewhere.
Where’s the rest of this thread? There were at least 14 more comments.
Has it been moved or deleted? Moving it without notice where to find it would not be good style.
Deleting it would be completely inacceptable.
Posts were (IMO) beginning to contravene the openSUSE Forums terms and conditions as laid out here: https://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_novellgen.
I have decided to (attempt to) bring the direction of the thread back to its technical focus. I recommend that we all adhere to the T&C particularly in this instance the segment “Board Content”.
Alright, so it seems you delete what you don’t like. Without any notice, so that future readers will think that the discussion had stopped there.
In my book that borders on deception and manipulation.
And that contravenes my terms and conditions of how to deal with people.
Inexcusable.
Hi
OK, last warning! These are technical forums not rant forums. We have one of those it’s called Soapbox. Read the forum T&C’s if you don’t like them, then suggest you move on or the forum staff will make that decision for you.
Thread closed.