Geeez, with this big a surge in complaints at install time i really
question the wisdom of the selections of the development team.
I think that there must be better feedback to the devs on the problem
rates. Maybe make them read this ng/forum for a quarter after each
release.
?-)
On 2012-09-22 16:51, josephkk wrote:
>
> Geeez, with this big a surge in complaints at install time i really
> question the wisdom of the selections of the development team.
I don’t see a big surge. Actually, this one is rather smallish. 
> I think that there must be better feedback to the devs on the problem
> rates. Maybe make them read this ng/forum for a quarter after each
> release.
>
> ?-)
Read this? YEAH, keep dreaming
You ca report to them using bugzilla, the official channel for reporting. And you can talk to
them in the channels they choose to use.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)
This thread is not a request for help, so will move it to Chit-Chat…
I haven’t noticed anything unusual. With a new release, there’s always a spike lasting 4 to 6 weeks. The installation process is about the most complex procedure most users will tackle on their computer, and there will inevitably be a bug or two once that’s done. The general comments have been mostly positive.
I really like 12.2 I think delaying the release was a good idea. It has been the most reliable out of box openSUSE for me so far.
+1 - I am finding this 12.2.very reliable - well done!
Personally i find openSUSE 12.1 to be the best openSUSE version for me. But you are right about the 12.2 delay, better to be late than sorry 
+100
I’m finding 12.2 Gnome to be extremely reliable and a delight to use. No bugs, glitches or hitches. Just a gorgeous OS. Really glad they delayed the release to ensure the quality. 100% justified imho. I only hope that openSUSE goes from strength to strength.
Since at least 11.3 every new release has been
the most reliable out of box openSUSE for me so far
.
I think that a lot of trouble is caused by the move to grub2 and systemd, but this is something to be expected…I have done two updates and one fresh install (won a new GNU/Linux user in the process) and had no trouble so far.
I think you’re being a little unkind to the Development Team. They been building SuSE/openSUSE distros for much longer than most people have been using Linux. I don’t think you’ll find a distro that embraces different desktop environments (KDE/GNOME) agnostically but nevertheless as superbly as openSUSE. I found openSUSE 11.4 more stable than 12.x, but it was the end-of-line of a major release so that’s to be expected.
If openSUSE wants to conquer the distro world (and I don’t think it does), there’s a few incredibly obvious things it needs to do at the installation/settings stage:
Default the kernel mode of installation DVD to `Safe Settings’ - there’s nothing more disconcerting to a Linux newbie than a system hanging only just after inserting the an OS installation DVD.
After installing files, stop trying to be clever by loading the newly installed OS without rebooting - more often than not the system just hangs forcing the user to hard-reboot anyway. This just looks cheap.
Make GRUB2 available but not the default bootloader - it is (as YaST warns) still the experimental stage and (it appears) buggy. GRUB Legacy should be the default as it was with 12.1
Fix the Package Manager issue (“Do you to ask Package Manager to quit? ad nauseam”). Does it need a `please’? It just looks sloppy if it’s getting in the way when you’re only trying install something small - (I don’t know if this is a KDE issue).
Modernise YaST. The fact that the (at least in KDE) System Settings and YaST still appear to be competition rather than complementary is a problem that’s getting rather old now e.g. there’s a link to YaST from System Settings but not the other way round. And puh’lease why does it so much easier to join a Wifi network from Android than openSUSE on laptop/mobile devices? This isn’t rocket science.
BUT having used openSUSE for a while, I can say these are minor issues that would therefore have little impact on me, but may improve the appeal to potential openSUSE users. It’s fair to say that openSUSE hasn’t changed in terms of a paradigm shift' over the last few years. But I think it's only fair to encourage the Developers to experiment and find something that works well, stably, and within the accommodating philosophy of openSUSE. So I think to say i really question the wisdom of the selections of the development team’ is somewhat unjust unless you are at least as familiar with Linux as Linus Torvalds.
On 2012-10-05 18:56, flymail wrote:
> I don’t think you’ll find a distro that embraces
> different desktop environments (KDE/GNOME) agnostically but nevertheless
> as superbly as openSUSE.
True, yet some people have wanted to force have only one desktop. Fortunately, they did not win
the battle 
> I found openSUSE 11.4 more stable than 12.x,
> but it was the end-of-line of a major release so that’s to be expected.
There are no major releases at all. That’s a false belief.
> If openSUSE wants to conquer the distro world (and I don’t think it
> does), there’s a few incredibly obvious things it needs to do at the
> installation/settings stage:
>
> 1. Default the kernel mode of installation DVD to `Safe Settings’ -
> there’s nothing more disconcerting to a Linux newbie than a system
> hanging only just after inserting the an OS installation DVD.
On the other hand, safe settings make many computers very slow, and that also puts off many users.
> 2. After installing files, stop trying to be clever by loading the
> newly installed OS without rebooting - more often than not the system
> just hangs forcing the user to hard-reboot anyway. This just looks
> cheap.
On the other hand, doing that way it some times boots some other operating system that is in
the hard disk, or fails to boot at all - both cases provoke an incomplete installation.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)
Carlos, on your first two points I can see where you coming from. However when you say:
Are you being serious, seriously? Or are you just being contrary to stimulate debate? I must have installed SuSE/openSUSE since 1998 over a hundred times on many machines and undertake the finding that it routinely freeze if not installing under safe settings/not rebooting as almost a necessary part of the ceremony. You think this is good and gives confidence to Linux newbies? I must be missing something.
I don’t recall seeing “kexec” used in 12.1 or 12.2.
One of my computers always hangs with reboot. I would normally shutdown, then power up again to avoid that. However, kexec works fine for that system. So I liked it.
Since EFI capable computers are becoming more common, I see it as better to make grub2 the default. We need to get used to it. But keep legacy grub as an alternative.
I agree with you on that one. It ought to be possible to bail out with a single click. This happens when using Yast online-update, so I don’t think it is a KDE thing.
On 2012-10-05 20:36, flymail wrote:
> Are you being serious, seriously? Or are you just being contrary to
> stimulate debate? I must have installed SuSE/openSUSE since 1998 over a
> hundred times on many machines and undertake the finding that it
> routinely freeze if not installing under safe settings/not rebooting as
> almost a necessary part of the ceremony. You think this is good and
> gives confidence to Linux newbies? I must be missing something.
I never needed safe settings on any machine I have installed in my life.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 12.1 x86_64 “Asparagus” at Telcontar)
For anyone who likes using Kexec, have a look here: FastBoot for Grub 2 or Grub Legacy Menu using Kexec - Version 2.13 - Blogs - openSUSE Forums
Thank You,
I’m just referring to the installation stage, when the success rate of not freezing is clearly hit-and-miss.
I’m afraid you’re probably right in the long run. But for now, I don’t think it’s a good idea to default to a bootloader that even YaST admits is `experimental’, It’s analogous defaulting to BTRFS. It’s probably just too early at the moment.
I wish I had your good fortune :)! But it is still hit-and-miss as I (and several other people) had experienced. Since it is machine-dependent, I suspect it is a results of hardware/driver issues, with laptops (perhaps with more remote components) being more vulnerable.
Yes, that was what I was commenting on. On that computer of mine, it will freeze in the reboot done during install. But it doesn’t freeze if kexec is used.
At other times, I can shutdown then re-power up. But when the installer reboots, I don’t have that choice. (I think I did at one time click “stop” to stop the reboot, then CTRL-ALT-F1 to get a command line to shutdown).
After reading through this discussion it seems that installing openSUSE is difficult. I am very new to Linux and openSUSE, so I’m going to share what I had to do as a nooby to get a dual boot with openSUSE & Windows 7 working.
Only two days ago I decided I wanted to try out Linux, I chose openSUSE because I was recommended it by a friend. So after downloading the .iso image I needed to put it on USB as my laptop doesn’t have a CD Drive. This was extremely frustrating, after over 2 - 3 hours of work I got there, this was down to a couple of things:
My point is all of this work is just to install the openSUSE operating system is way too much for a new Linux user, If I wasn’t determined and stubborn I would of probably given up. In my opinion the developers should make the installation process easy for the Linux noob’s like myself. Other than that openSUSE is a awesome operating system, very stable, does everything I want, and is secure!
The developers obviously work very hard in creating such a good operating system, however they should in my opinion make installing it easier. That isn’t necessarily the developers fault though, it could be down to the vision of the project but I can’t comment much on that as I am still very new to openSUSE.
That is all.
On 10/12/2012 10:46 AM, TomChinery wrote:
> they should in my opinion make installing it
> easier.
i agree with everything you said and am SO happy you are both
“determined and stubborn”!!
yes, the effort is TOO high, and the payoff is amazingly just as HIGH!
still, it should be easier and i make a few observations:
the various versions, as they are released over time are sometimes
unbelievably easy…really! if you google enough (use google’s site
specifier to search the forums only, like site:forums.opensuse.org) and
you will find surprised, astonished, congratulatory posts saying stuff
like: i’ve never used anything but (say) Vista and i just installed
openSUSE X.x and everything was SO easy…a no brainer to install…it
‘just worked’…then, (maybe) when the next version came out that same
person might write: it sucks, HORRIBLE, everything is broken and i can
NOT install X.y, i’m going to Ubuntu where they know what they are
doing!! i am NOT kidding!
unfortunate for you, you hit just as some really big changes were
taking place (for example, to pick just three: systemd replacing
systemv; UEFI replacing a more rational/accomodating bios; and grub2
replacing grub)…the sum of which is that there are LOTs of
documentation, guides and helper understanding that is FAR trailing the
devs who are streaking ahead, breaking new ground at a really fast pace…
“Linux is not for everyone.” is a fact [imo] which i have
proclaimed often…and especially right now (12.1 and even more 12.2) a
certain level of maturity, persistence and courage
Predictions:
– stick with it a year and you will be AMAZED how much you have learned
– and even more amazed at how really easy it was to get
going–considering how little you understood about the new system, and
still was successful
– eventually your system will suddenly be broken above all possible
understanding…(if not, you will be the exception) and you will be
absolutely sure you have discovered a terrible bug, that simply should
never have been overlooked…maybe you did discover such, but if my
experience has any worth it is more likely your System Administrator did
it, accidentally…
now, welcome to an exclusive, and relatively small group of hard headed
folks willing to forge ahead, in freedom.
welcome again…your need for patience is not yet over…i have to dig
up some everyday…and, i’ve only been dabbling in Linux since (about)
'98, maybe '97 i really do not remember the first time i tried and
failed. . . .
–
dd
Well, it can actually install extremely smoothly, and the installer is really well put-together. But when it doesn’t work, it can be frustrating until you learn the what the `usual suspects’ are and figure out workarounds. Dual-boot (with MSWin) on laptops can be a bit of a headache if they’ve stuck loads of primary partitions in a Windows-centric way.
For new starters though, it really isn’t encouraging when you have to work hard to make things works, and this kind of thing will always put off potential users by giving a negative impression. For this reason, my feeling is that during the installation stage, the installer must err on the play-it-safe side. If there’s a risk of crashing, the installer should at least forewarn the user (e.g. ‘The computer may halt while detecting hardware - in which case please reboot the system.’), otherwise it just looks unprofessional if the whole thing just unexpectedly freezes.
Of course on the plus side, the benefits are fantastic and your determination and persistence will pay off. Linux isn’t free. You pay with time instead of money. In my opinion this makes Linux more expensive than other operating systems, but it’s more than worth the investment especially with openSUSE.