Yikes! There is a lot of ranting about 11.0… I think it’s great.
I have only been using Linux since 10.2 (Solaris before that, an outstanding OS). I did have lots of wireless card problems on 10.2, but through posts here I found workarounds, and was able to get 11 sorted fairly quick. I had a beta version of 10.3 and I think 11 is much better than that. KDE4 is fine if you turn off all the “bells and whistles” (do you really need to get the screen to spin around).
Just being able to install 11 and keep 10.3 /home is brilliant. All your settings are kept. Windows has nothing like that, and Windows isn’t free.
If it wasn’t for the support of the people on this forum I wouldn’t have stuck with it. It’s the difference.
Yeah, I’m giving up too. I’ve installed it 5 times, with/without 4.x and 3.5.9, 32bit and 64 bit, and it’s not up to the standard of 10.3 and 3.5.9 excepting, of course, the speed of package management. That’s the only benefit.
Firefox 3 is a slug, is a privacy exposure to all, and its font rendering makes the DOS prompt appear crisp on a 1980 CGA monitor. I know it’s Mozilla’s fault, but also openSuse’s because they didn’t provide an alternative in package management.
Fonts are atrocious (for me, at least) in 11.0, desktop and Firefox3. And, yes, I’ve tried everything under the sun that has been mentioned in these forums, Mandriva’s, Debian’s, Ubuntu’s, etc. 11.0 is orders of magnitude worse than my 10.3/3.5.9 installation which is laser sharp. I’m simply not interested in spending another week or two dealing with crap font display issues that make my eyes water.
I can’t get my USB sound card to work in 11.0. It works fine in 10.3, PCLOS, Mandriva, Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora. Go figure. And, yes, I’ve read all there is about my chipset and possible workarounds, which haven’t worked. Too much time wasted on something that should work out of the box.
And openSuse was complicit in foisting off a barely alpha version of KDE 4 on an unsuspecting public. If anyone thinks that the following says “alpha”, “beta”, “not ready for prime time”, “unstable”, “totally feature incomplete” or “for fanboys/girls only”, please apply for employment at KDE PR offices:
“KDE 4 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new technologies, but is less mature than the other desktops”.
This is the description that you are presented with when installing openSuse 11. So, yes, openSuse 11.0 may be the latest version, but that doesn’t make it the best. Me, I’m sticking like the OP to 10.3 and 3.5.9 and Firefox2. When those reach EOL, I’ll find something else, even Windows if need be, if the problems that I set out above haven’t been addressed by Novell/openSuse.
I bet you sound works fine in 11.0 KDE-3.5.9 as well as in 10.3 on your USB sound card. I think you simply have not configured it properly …
A very big pet peeve of mine is openSUSE users who struggle with their audio, should not have to, because the solution is often there to solve their problem. Hence in an effort to address this pet peeve, over 1/2 of my posts on this forum are dedicated to help openSUSE users solve their audio problems. I have tried VERY HARD to ensure EVERY user who posts that their sound does not work (on this forum) has had at least some attempts by me to help them. I may miss a few, but I definitely try not to miss anyone.
So naturally when I read this item-3 of yours, I asked myself, … gosh … did I fail in helping you with your audio? How many posts did we exchange to try solve your audio problem? How many of your audio request posts did I mistakenly ignore? What could I do better to help you with your sound ?
Also, were the 3 openSUSE wiki’s I wrote worthless, and simply a complete waste of my time as users like you can’t understand them?
Well, I searched on your handle. All I could find were complaints about fonts, subpixel rendering, and NOT one new thread, started by you, asking for help with your audio.
I’ve managed to learn a bit about audio over the years. There is a LOT I still don’t know. And I still have to ask for help on a lot of things. It would be nice if I knew so much, that I no longer have to ask for help with audio. But thats not the case for me. I make silly mistakes at times. At other times difficult issues stump me. I still need to ask for help at times, even ask for help in audio. Is it the case for you? Do you know so much, that you don’t have to ask for help in audio, when you get stumped on something?
Please, where are your posts asking for audio help?
IMHO Firefox3 is a slug only for users with large bookmark files. Try firefox3 with a very small number of bookmarks, and also try some of the settings here: Speed up Firefox with these tweaks
after I applied those, I found my firefox3 faster than the older firefox2.
@oldcpu: my point is that the audio should work out of the box if it did so in 10.3/3.5.9. I note your dedication, but sound was priority #3 for me and, after all the cycles spent to try to get fonts/ff3 working half decently (and being led down the path by KDE 4), I just gave up. But not before seaching through the forums and the web to see if there was a consensus solution or commonality to my specific chipset/problem.
I probably had more patience than an ordinary user/windows wannabe convert who would simply have said, “what a load of rubbish this Linux thing is!”.
@oldcpu: It would help if you read my post. I quoted EXACTLY the openSuse installation wording at the desktop selection point!
@oldcpu: I had tried the ff3 tips you reference. Small, insignificant difference. Still slower than 10.3/ff2.
@oldcpu: Fonts. Whoopee. Should work crisply out of the box. Oh, I forgot, this is Linux. Only needs three shamans, two entrail-readers, and a host of sacrificial lambs to “try this and see if it works”.
Thanks for the response, though. Always nice to hear from the average class of user. When all ese fails, blame the user.
Seriously, the openSuse maintainers and developers do a fantastic job. It’s just that when push meets shove, it’s usually the “latest and greatest” and “bling-ridden” stuff that gets foisted on the public, a.k.a. KDE4x et al. Sometimes they win, sometimes they don’t.
This time they got ahead of the truck, and that’s why the OP and I are saying what we are. If you disagree, fine, but please don’t try to shoot the messenger or the user for expecting a near-solid experience out of the box.
You can install Firefox 2 on openSUSE 11 quite easily. For most users, Firefox 3 is extremely fast, and considerably faster than Firefox 2. And your font comment is both non-specific, and overt hyperbole.
Fonts are atrocious (for me, at least) in 11.0, desktop and Firefox3. And, yes, I’ve tried everything under the sun that has been mentioned in these forums, Mandriva’s, Debian’s, Ubuntu’s, etc. 11.0 is orders of magnitude worse than my 10.3/3.5.9 installation which is laser sharp. I’m simply not interested in spending another week or two dealing with crap font display issues that make my eyes water.
You have complete freedom to change all the font settings as you wish. I do with every distro I test. It takes me about 2-5 minutes to change all the font options including DPI, sub-pixel hinting, etc. If you can’t manage to do it in a week, that means you aren’t looking for help. You just want to complain.
I can’t get my USB sound card to work in 11.0. It works fine in 10.3, PCLOS, Mandriva, Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora. Go figure. And, yes, I’ve read all there is about my chipset and possible workarounds, which haven’t worked. Too much time wasted on something that should work out of the box.
Again, you provide no specifics. You don’t want help. You want to complain.
And openSuse was complicit in foisting off a barely alpha version of KDE 4 on an unsuspecting public. If anyone thinks that the following says “alpha”, “beta”, “not ready for prime time”, “unstable”, “totally feature incomplete” or “for fanboys/girls only”, please apply for employment at KDE PR offices:
You have three options to choose from. Statements like “for fanboys/girls only” proves you have worse communication skills than those you chose to deride.
“KDE 4 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new technologies, but is less mature than the other desktops”.
I have zero sympathy for those who solely complain and offer up nothing else. If things work in 10.3 and you like 10.3, then stick with 10.3
If you have suggestions for improvements, then add them to the wiki page:
I’m curious about the psychology behind the soapbox forum. It’s made because of people’s need to rant and vent their frustration but I’d imagine most probably leave feeling rejected. Not too many actually welcome a rant.
A ‘Soapbox’ forum where people could vent and felt that they were being heard but that no one actually saw would be ideal Sorta like a someone taking your angry letters out of the post kinda thing.
NOTE: I’m separating rants from suggestions for improvement here.
Actually the Soapbox forum is a place for opinions. It’s just a dynamic of how people express opinions and respond to opinions that sometimes things get a bit more intense than we’re willing to tolerate in the rest of the forums. Rather than deny the natural human need to express ourselves when we’re frustrated, we set aside a place for it, one that’s still subject to forums T&C. That being said, we’re a discussion forum, not a corkboard, so anything posted to the forums is typically open for commentary. Anyone posting should understand that if they express a strong opinion, someone is gonna disagree, and post about it. There’s no free lunch.
The only major mistakes they made, IMO, was releasing the LiveCDs only as GNOME or KDE 4.
Most new users/people who want to try openSUSE for the first time will download a LiveCD.
People who downloaded the GNOME LiveCD got this kind of impression:
I can understand some of his complaints. As I have already explained, I don’t feel that the GTK interface of YaST Software Manager is on a par with the QT one.
On the other hand people who downloaded the KDE 4 LiveCD were absolutely flabbergasted, and wrote everywhere post full of hatred against KDE 4 and, as a consequence, openSUSE 11.0.
IMO it isn’t too late releasing a KDE 3.5 LiveCD.
@enderandrew: Keep shooting the messenger, then, if you can’t deal with criticism and ratianale for not adopting a distribution/version.
It’s only a variation on the old meme of “if you can’t use the command line, then you have no business using Linux”. Have you ever wondered just who the mass audience is for Linux? Ubuntu knows. And for Windows, MS sure knows. It isn’t sysadmins.
Thanks for the English lesson, though. Really pertinent.
Now I don’t agree with chop33 nor eriksorenson (I think they both know too much about linux, and are above asking for help), but I definitely agree with their right to vent.
Reference eriksorenson’s comment:
my point is that the audio should work out of the box if it did so in 10.3/3.5.9
if you want that then either:
a. go buy a mac [where every mac user searches 1st to ensure their hardware is labelled by the manufacturer as mac compatible before purchasing], or
b. participate in the alpha/beta development cycles to ensure developers pay attention to your hardware, or
c. purchase hardware with superior compatibility. Preferably hardware that the manufacturer says is Linux compatible. And Research better. A good search in the web will indicate than many distributions (specifically including Ubuntu and Fedora) have struggled with USB devices. I simply don’t “buy” the comment that it works with Mandriva’s, Debian’s, Ubuntu’s, etc. . I’ve spent too much time on IRC#alsa seeing users from those distributions complain about their USB sound devices do not work. So this “just works” in those distributions “doesn’t cut it”. And this should “just work” desire for openSUSE, given a lack of requests for help, also simply doesn’t cut it. Poor research. Poor opinion. IMHO, of course, or
d. maybe ask for help instead of venting.
If it were me, I would ask for help 1st. And then rather than complain, write a bug report, and then participate in the alpha/beta releases to ensure the problem doesn’t happen again.
I forgot to ask eriksorenson and chopin33. How much money did they pay for their OS? And if they purchased the boxed set, what did Novell Support say when they called, or were they too knowledgeable to stoop so low to ask for help?
“b. participate in the alpha/beta development cycles to ensure developers pay attention to your hardware, or”
I did. Couldn’t even boot from the CD in the second beta, I think, maybe the RC. Put in a bug report, and even helped by trying out some diagnostics until the developers found the problem.
But my most recent point is that, rather than agreeing that there are font/FF/Sound/KDE4 problems in 11.0 and that these are producing a less than satisfactory experience for many users, some commenters here are more interested in attacking the messenger(s) over process, involvement, investment (or lack thereof) and attitude. So be it. In Suse 7, 8, 9 I paid for boxed sets. I didn’t know in 10 and beyond it would be a condition of posting in openSuse forums.
And yes, @oldcpu, I have over 40 years of experience in operations, programming, tech support, management (up to thousands), and consulting. So I understand the mentality of folks like @enderandrew. Only too well. It’s always the user’s fault.
Thats very true. I am average. I make no bones about it. And when I have problems with my audio, I ask for help. When I find my firefox unusually slow, I ask for help. And before I go to install a new desktop version, I research first.
I’m just average. I am not blessed with the advanced knowledge that you must have, since you don’t need to ask.
I’m all for criticism, and I have been fairly critical of KDE 4. However, I am specific. I state how feature X provides advantages over feature Y, or why feature Y was a regression. I offer suggestions to improve KDE 4.
I have been switching all kinds of people to Linux, mostly people who aren’t computer savvy at all. With Windows, they unknowingly fill their boxes full of spyware and such. Many tell me that they find KDE to be easier to learn and use than Windows.
I’ve never suggested that Linux should be hard, or only cater to power users. I believe the great advantage of KDE (3) is that it provides tons of options for power users, while allowing new users a very intuitive interface.
Most Linux users should never need to use the command line. These days, wireless drivers are a bit in flux, and that causes some people to stumble, or need to turn to a command line to solve their problems.
However, at the same time, for power users, a robust shell is extremely useful. I love the way that Linux is built from a core kernel, to the X windowing system, to KDE.
cisforcojo wrote:
> @ enderandrew: Agreed.
>
> I’m curious about the psychology behind the soapbox forum. It’s made
> because of people’s need to rant and vent their frustration but I’d
> imagine most probably leave feeling rejected. Not too many actually
> welcome a rant.
>
> A ‘Soapbox’ forum where people could vent and felt that they were being
> heard but that no one actually saw would be ideal Sorta like a
> someone taking your angry letters out of the post kinda thing.
>
> NOTE: I’m separating rants from suggestions for improvement here.
>
>
Well, the way I see it, if Soapbox is made for rants and someone
disagrees with the original rant then they can rant right back…lol.
Just as long as people keep things civil.
This is true. This is the reason that I switched from Kubuntu to OpenSuse.
I’ve been using the KDE4 series on Kubuntu Hardy (the most recent stable release) since KDE 4.1 beta 2, and initially thought the multitude of bugs (desktop configs don’t get saved; Dolphin crashes on cutting-and-pasting, and when navigating to directories with video files) to be KDE4’s fault. Then came RC1, and the bugs persist. Surely KDE can’t be that irresponsible, I thought, leaving such glaring bugs in a release candidate. So, I made the switch to OpenSuse 11, and no bugs anymore.
Also there is the problem with aesthetics: even in the KDE 3.5 series, Kubuntu handles GTK+/Gnome apps uglily, giving them crude, blocky interfaces. These apps, running under KDE in OpenSuse, are much more pleasing to the eyes.
Canonical has only one full-time developer working on Kubuntu, and they plan to move onto KDE4 completely in the next Kubuntu release in October. I wish them the best of luck: they need every bit of it.
I tried the Kubuntu 4 remix and found it buggy too, but KDE 4 grew on me.
With all this controversy going on about KDE 4 and openSUSE 11 I have done what any (in)sane person would do.
I’ve installed openSUSE 11 with KDE 4(.0.4) and I’m going to see if I can experience these issues MYSELF!
I did notice Firefox being a little slower, but then again this was right after the installation and the entire systems seemed slow. I don’t know if it was because it was making all of the necessary files for the first time or if it was because my CPU was running in a dynamic mode (ran at 600Mhz, not 1.4 GHz).
Either way, I changed the CPU settings so as to get my full power, and things seem to be running reasonably so far. I only keep Firefox for compatibility reasons though, otherwise I try and use Konquerer.
I figure if I find “enough is enough” I’ll re-install openSUSE 11 with KDE 3.5.x and if that doesn’t satisfy me then I’ll look at Ubuntu (but I doubt I’ll have to go that far).
Sorta like a someone taking your angry letters out of the post kinda thing.