Fresh openSUSE 13.1 x64 install: KDE issues - kmix and compositing

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Hi there,

I installed 13.1 x64 yesterday using the network installer, to my Phenom2 X6 1090T, 8GB, GeForce GTX560Ti based box - everything seems to have installed cleanly, but I’m experiencing a couple of issues with the default KDE 4.11.3.

First and most serious problem is the use of compositing for desktop effects - I simply cannot set compositing type to OpenGL of any flavour, as after less than a minute the desktop becomes unusably slow. Xrender works, but of course some of the effects require OpenGL to work. It is worth noting that on the exact same box, openSUSE 12.2 and KDE 4.8.4 and KDE 4.9.5 worked flawlessly with OpenGL compositing. I’ve blacklisted nouveau as recommended, and tried various tweaks of xorg.conf, but at this point am stumped.

Second and much less serious, but still annoying is the refusal of kmix to display all the controls for my Infrasonic Quartet PCI audio card. This is a Via ICE1724HT based high-end multichannel in/out audio card. Of note is that under openSUSE 12.2/KDE 4.9.5 kmix even listed it as an ‘Infrasonic Quartet’ and showed me all the controls - those controls do not appear under this latest iteration of kmix, despite me doing some tricks with .asoundrc to try and coerce kmix into doing so. I’ve tried qasmixer, which does show the controls, but has a dreadful UI that cannot save or remember the position of control elements, and also Volti (doesn’t show controls), and alsamixergui, which again does show them but has the worst UI of all. I’ve noted that the XFCE mixer app looks to be exactly what I want, but I don’t want XFCE. I really do need access to the controls, as there are times I need to monitor the inputs or not monitor the inputs, and also change the sample rate depending on the software I’m working with.

So is anyone willing to help me, particularly with the graphics issue?

On first impressions openSUSE 13.1 could score 5 from 5 were it not for these regressions. I am running it on another machine (old slow laptop), but only as a DLNA media and security server with an LXDE desktop. It is working flawlessly on there, but with KDE being the preferred desktop user experience I sadly have to say KDE has regressed from 4.8 and 4.9 to this 4.11 release. I see an update to KDE 4.12.0 is available, but I’d like to learn if that update fixes some of the issues with 4.11.3 before I dedicate download bandwidth to installing that.

Cheers,
Chris W, NZ

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Ah, before I forget I’m running the NVidia binary driver for x64, ver 331.20.

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Did you install the proprietary nvidia driver and which version? Blacklisting nouveau alone is not enough.

If yes, please install “Mesa-demo-x” if it is not installed already and post the output of:

glxinfo | grep render

Maybe you have to add your user to the group “video”, see 12.3’s release notes:
https://www.suse.com/releasenotes/x86_64/openSUSE/12.3/#idm47462154153376
(Unfortunately that bug re-surfaced on 13.1, but it should be fixed with the next systemd update)

Second and much less serious, but still annoying is the refusal of kmix to display all the controls for my Infrasonic Quartet PCI audio card. This is a Via ICE1724HT based high-end multichannel in/out audio card. Of note is that under openSUSE 12.2/KDE 4.9.5 kmix even listed it as an ‘Infrasonic Quartet’ and showed me all the controls - those controls do not appear under this latest iteration of kmix, despite me doing some tricks with .asoundrc to try and coerce kmix into doing so. I’ve tried qasmixer, which does show the controls, but has a dreadful UI that cannot save or remember the position of control elements, and also Volti (doesn’t show controls), and alsamixergui, which again does show them but has the worst UI of all. I’ve noted that the XFCE mixer app looks to be exactly what I want, but I don’t want XFCE. I really do need access to the controls, as there are times I need to monitor the inputs or not monitor the inputs, and also change the sample rate depending on the software I’m working with.

Probably because PulseAudio is used by default not all of your controls appear. (PulseAudio creates something like a fake sound card)
Try to disable it in YaST->Hardware->Sound->Other->PulseAudio Configuration.

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I’m running the proprietary driver, latest as of yesterday which is 331.20 for 64-bit.

glxinfo says…

direct rendering: Yes
OpenGL renderer string: GeForce GTX 560 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
    GL_NVX_conditional_render, GL_NVX_gpu_memory_info, 
    GL_NV_conditional_render, GL_NV_copy_depth_to_color, GL_NV_copy_image, 
    GL_NV_parameter_buffer_object2, GL_NV_path_rendering, 
    GL_NVX_conditional_render, GL_NVX_gpu_memory_info, 
    GL_NV_conditional_render, GL_NV_copy_depth_to_color, GL_NV_copy_image, 
    GL_NV_parameter_buffer_object2, GL_NV_path_rendering,

Running an OpenGL application such as the 4D hypertorus screensaver works fine, even at the 2560x1440 of my monitor.

I added myself to the video group, and it seems to work OK for a bit longer, but still eventually (2-3 minutes) the system becomes very sluggish, unworkable, until I alt-shift-F12 to disable desktop effects. Playing with the kwin settings OpenGL 3.1 seems to bug out quicker than OpenGL 2.1 or OpenGL 1.2 setting, but regardless of which OpenGL version I set it to, it still bugs out eventually. Still it has improved…any other things I can try? :wink:

Probably because PulseAudio is used by default not all of your controls appear. (PulseAudio creates something like a fake sound card)
Try to disable it in YaST->Hardware->Sound->Other->PulseAudio Configuration.

I disabled it, and this time kmix shows all the controls - excellent. I’m sure I didn’t need to disable pulseaudio under OS 12.2, but never mind - that one is solved - cheers!

Chris W, NZ

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Looks ok.

I added myself to the video group, and it seems to work OK for a bit longer, but still eventually (2-3 minutes) the system becomes very sluggish, unworkable, until I alt-shift-F12 to disable desktop effects. Playing with the kwin settings OpenGL 3.1 seems to bug out quicker than OpenGL 2.1 or OpenGL 1.2 setting, but regardless of which OpenGL version I set it to, it still bugs out eventually. Still it has improved…any other things I can try? :wink:

Can you check that Qt graphics system is set to “Raster” (on the “Advanced” tab)?

Other than that, I can’t really think of anything else right now.

Are there any interesting lines in “dmesg” or /var/log/Xorg.0.log, when the freezes happen?

Do you have Nepomuk’s file indexer enabled? Maybe it indexes, but that shouldn’t really be a problem anymore.

Maybe you’re running out of RAM and the system is swapping heavily? Should not happen with 8GB RAM though…

You could of course also try to switch to the G02 driver (304.xxx). Maybe that one works better for you?

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Hi Wolfi323,

I ran dmesg, noted the last event timestamp, then turned OpenGL compositing on, did a few random things until the desktop froze, then kept trying to do stuff for a couple of minutes - then alt-shift-F12 to disable effects, and ran dmesg again - nothing additional apart from a firewall entry. I then tried disabling the firewall, but that made no difference.

I’ll do a few things now, testing the results as I go. I’ll knock nepomuk on the head first

Regards the NVidia driver I’ve always installed manually by downloading the driver from NVidia themselves, and dropping to init 3 to perform the installation - that way I get the very latest iteration, and installing this way has never caused much issue before. I’ll try reverting to an earlier version first (325 worked fine in openSUSE 12.2/KDE 4.9.5), and then if that doesn’t work I’ll look at the G02 driver.

Cheers,

Chris W.

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Try the one from the repo. There have been several posts bout the 560 chip set. You might want to do a search here I think that GO2 may have helped Note fully remove the installed driver before installing from the repo

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Well it was nice while it lasted. G02 seemed to do the trick for a few hours, but it eventually bugged out again after I changed a setting (vert sync). Xrender is the only kwin option that doesn’t see these lockups. As an experiment I ran glxgears with no desktop effects running - gives around 16500 fps with G02 (in OS 12.2/KDE 4.9.5 it gave nearly 18000 under same test conditions), but with desktop effects running under Xrender it gives 10000 fps, a huge drop even without the desktop using OpenGL. Switch to OpenGL and it drops again to 7000 fps, but the interesting thing is that it still is rendering 7000 fps even when the desktop seems frozen. So one could surmise that kwin is simply not updating the desktop very often, despite everything still running in the background.as well as can be.

It is quite disappointing knowing that KDE4 is nearly 7 years old, and yet the same complaints about slow performance of kwin are still popping up on forums from people using all graphics chipsets - it doesn’t seem to matter what graphics vendor floats your boat, kwin has examples where it just fails to work adequately on all of them, whether it be NVidia, ATi, Intel - and this theme continues across the different drivers for each chipset, whether they be opensource or proprietary - kwin seems to be central to many of the performance issues in KDE.

I have serious issues with these regressions, which should NOT be happening to a supposedly mature DE, and I question why openSUSE should continue to include KDE in their distro, which such regressions. Really, KDE need to get with the graphics vendors, the X guys, the kernel guys, and anyone else who it might effect, and sort this kwin business out.

Chris W, NZ.

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I have no such problems on any of my systems (all of them running 13.1 now, but also in previous versions): Nvidia GTX 550 Ti with the latest G03 driver, Radeon 9600 with the open source radeon driver, Intel GMA 950 with the open source intel driver.
KDE’s OpenGL Desktop effects work fast and without issues on all of them…

I have serious issues with these regressions, which should NOT be happening to a supposedly mature DE, and I question why openSUSE should continue to include KDE in their distro, which such regressions.

Why should openSUSE not include KDE? Just because you have issues with the nvidia driver and/or your gfx card?
If you find KDE immature and unstable, just use something else. There’s plenty of choice in openSUSE…
Or disable Desktop Effects. Although this doesn’t fix your underlying issue, it should at least give you a working system.

And it can’t really be KWin’s fault if your system locks up as you describe it. And I doubt that KWin is as buggy as you seem to think, otherwise there would be a lot more complaints. But it seems to work fine for many other people as well…

A sidenote: sometimes problems like this can be solved by a BIOS update.

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I had also similiar problems, but Wolfi’s hint to set Qt rendering to “Raster” and selecting OpenGL 3.1 solved the “problem”.
Thanks Wolfi!

And to Chrisblob’s remarks… I disagree.
KDE now even allows to delete the annoying start menu bar!
Its eyecandy and functionality improvements really make me consider finally abandoning FVWM.

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It didn’t for me. I tried every combination of OpenGL and QT setting I could try, and as soon as I enable any OpenGL version instead of Xrender, and start doing anything productive like opening some software, my screen starts freezing intermittently within 20-30 seconds. I also installed the latest update to KDE 4.12.0, and it doesn’t fix the issue sadly.

And to Chrisblob’s remarks… I disagree.
KDE now even allows to delete the annoying start menu bar!
Its eyecandy and functionality improvements really make me consider finally abandoning FVWM.

You are allowed to disagree, just like I am allowed to. Its a fundamental tenet of the free software world, that you are allowed to disagree if you don’t like something, instead of rolling over when told to and and accepting it. People who ‘personally’ have had no trouble of the same manner are often quick to become defensive of something like kwin when someone who does have trouble gets a bit annoyed, as they perceive the annoyed one as a troublemaker. I’m not that, I’m just desiring that the KDE experience be as trouble free for everyone as possible. If I were lend you my box for a few days you would also quickly get annoyed at the loss in useability - it is often wise to learn the art of walking in anothers shoes, you may get sore feet…

I also like KDE, don’t get me wrong - its just disappointing to see a regression like this when from KDE 4.4 to KDE 4.9.5 all I had personally seen was many improvements, with few OpenGL troubles. I’m also not alone in this - if you do a google, there are many people using many distros, and across the different graphics subsystems and drivers, that are striking this same issue or very similar, with kwin. OpenGL desktop effects are one of the ‘selling’ points of the KDE DE, so not being able to use more than half of them because OpenGL cannot be set as the default renderer is of course going to be a bit of a let-down to those affected.

I’ve read comments from many people about this problem, and have tried at least a half dozen solutions from this and other forums/distros, but to no avail. What is my next step?

Chris W, NZ.

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Again, I really think your issue is not caused by a bug in KWin, that’s also why upgrading to 4.12 couldn’t help.
And I’m not trying to defend kwin here, I just want to point out that this is no general problem. (it was you who suggested to think about removing KDE from the distribution btw…:sarcastic:)
IMHO you either have a problem with the hardware, BIOS or driver.
I would look if there’s a BIOS update for your system and install it if available.

Another thing you could try is update to the latest kernel from here:
Index of /repositories/Kernel:/stable/standard
Not sure if this would have an effect on the nvidia driver (well, you would have to install it “the hard way” then, though, the version from the repo would not work anymore I guess), but it could help with the nouveau driver, since a big part of it is included with the kernel.

And on earlier openSUSE versions, some people had strange video problems because of plymouth (the boot splash). So maybe try to disable that and see if it helps. (add “plymouth.enable=0” to the boot options)

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Second and much less serious, but still annoying is the refusal of kmix to display all the controls for my Infrasonic Quartet PCI audio card. This is a Via ICE1724HT based high-end multichannel in/out audio card. Of note is that under openSUSE 12.2/KDE 4.9.5 kmix even listed it as an ‘Infrasonic Quartet’ and showed me all the controls - those controls do not appear under this latest iteration of kmix, despite me doing some tricks with .asoundrc to try and coerce kmix into doing so. I’ve tried qasmixer, which does show the controls, but has a dreadful UI that cannot save or remember the position of control elements, and also Volti (doesn’t show controls), and alsamixergui, which again does show them but has the worst UI of all. I’ve noted that the XFCE mixer app looks to be exactly what I want, but I don’t want XFCE. I really do need access to the controls, as there are times I need to monitor the inputs or not monitor the inputs, and also change the sample rate depending on the software I’m working with.

This kmix query probably deserves to be in a thread of its own. KDE is now using the Phonon-GStreamer backend, and this seems to have affected the controls that kmix presents. (It is controlling PulseAudio volume rather than ALASA volume levels AFAIU.) I’m only just coming to grips with it myself. The following wiki page may be helpful

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PulseAudio#ALSA.2Fdmix_without_grabbing_hardware_device

I note that if I use alsamixer, I can select the sound card ( ‘- default’ or ‘0 HDA_Intel’), and if I choose the latter, all the sound card controls are present and can be adjusted. I’ll leave to others to expand on this discussion.

FWIW, this is a good sound troubleshooting reference

Troubleshooting Linux Sound

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4.12 does seem to run very nicely, so long as I leave OpenGL out of the equation… sadly I’m an eye-candy kinda guy… :X

And I’m not trying to defend kwin here, I just want to point out that this is no general problem. (it was you who suggested to think about removing KDE from the distribution btw…:sarcastic:)
IMHO you either have a problem with the hardware, BIOS or driver.
I would look if there’s a BIOS update for your system and install it if available.

I already have the latest BIOS for my board, installed soon after I built the box in April 2011.

re: BIOS, hardware - they are the constants here, and have worked very reliably with a couple of openSUSE releases since I built the box. The reason I upgraded from OS 12.2 to 13.1 is that I wanted to try the latest stable KDE 4.12, but the upgrade path for OS 12.2 stopped at KDE 4.11. I did briefly try KDE 4.11 on OS 12.2, but it was seriously foobar, and the desktop was unstable, locking up intermittently. So rather than faff around fixing it I thought I might do a complete fresh install of OS 13.1 since its the holidays and I had some spare time. Those constants have not changed - what has changed is KDE and openSUSE. I’ve had no inkling of hardware troubles under Windows 7 either, everything just seems to be doing what its meant to there. There are dozens of comments I can track down about kwin issues, and for every comment there might be 10 people who just got pissed and went back to Windows. I think your assertion this is not a general problem is perhaps a bit premature, based on the numbers of comments and lack of solutions I’ve seen.

I briefly used the latest NVidia driver (331.20) on OS 12.2 / KDE 4.9.5, and it worked flawlessly. I’ve always used NVidias own installer over the repo way, to get the latest iterations.

Another thing you could try is update to the latest kernel from here:
Index of /repositories/Kernel:/stable/standard
Not sure if this would have an effect on the nvidia driver (well, you would have to install it “the hard way” then, though, the version from the repo would not work anymore I guess), but it could help with the nouveau driver, since a big part of it is included with the kernel.

How many gigs of download will updating the kernel result in? I’m keen to give this a go, but as I’ve already downloaded 32 and 64 bit versions of OS 13.1 for this box and the server/laptop downstairs, plus drained vimeo and a couple of other sites dry, I’m going to have to be careful with data until my rollover on 20th January.

And on earlier openSUSE versions, some people had strange video problems because of plymouth (the boot splash). So maybe try to disable that and see if it helps. (add “plymouth.enable=0” to the boot options)

I’ll try it.

Chris W, NZ.

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And if the nvidia driver has problems with the newer kernel f.e. it’s still KWin’s fault?
And again, I don’t even remotely have similar problems on any of my systems, and from the perception I get in the forum here I would say most other people don’t have them as well.

What distributions are those many people you are talking about that have the same problems use? openSUSE 13.1?
Or something else?
In that case, where’s the constant there? Linux? KDE?

I’ve had no inkling of hardware troubles under Windows 7 either, everything just seems to be doing what its meant to there. There are dozens of comments I can track down about kwin issues, and for every comment there might be 10 people who just got pissed and went back to Windows. I think your assertion this is not a general problem is perhaps a bit premature, based on the numbers of comments and lack of solutions I’ve seen.

Well, if you say so… I must be very very lucky then, if KWin is so buggy.

Have you reported all those KWin issues you are talking about, so that they can be fixed?

But in my experience, most of the problems come down to incorrect driver installation, incompatible mix of packages or wrong settings.

How many gigs of download will updating the kernel result in? I’m keen to give this a go, but as I’ve already downloaded 32 and 64 bit versions of OS 13.1 for this box and the server/laptop downstairs, plus drained vimeo and a couple of other sites dry, I’m going to have to be careful with data until my rollover on 20th January.

The kernel package has about ~45 MB, not much more than the nvidia driver…

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The nvidia driver that worked fine under OS 12.2 and KDE 4.9.5 is working fine here, as OpenGL apps and screensavers that require OpenGL work very well as per usual. However when I enable OpenGL compositing in kwin settings, that is when the fun begins (or stops). So one could posit that the NVidia driver is doing what it is meant to, based on OpenGL stuff other than kwin working fine.

And again, I don’t even remotely have similar problems on any of my systems, and from the perception I get in the forum here I would say most other people don’t have them as well.

Most people probably don’t. This forum is an extremely small subset of the human populace, even a very small subset of those using KDE.

What distributions are those many people you are talking about that have the same problems use? openSUSE 13.1?
Or something else?
In that case, where’s the constant there? Linux? KDE?

Arch, slack, kubuntu, openSUSE, Mint - its a sizeable list. You know fully well that you are the one who suggested my hardware or BIOS or drivers could be at fault - I told you those things had not changed, and had remained constant. Now you deride me for mentioning these other distros in the context of constants - I never claimed the distros were constant. That there are plenty of other distro’s users having similar troubles tells me more than anything else that kwin et al, and not just the openSUSE build of kwin, has a bug.

Well, if you say so… I must be very very lucky then, if KWin is so buggy.

Have you reported all those KWin issues you are talking about, so that they can be fixed?

I have done. There are quite a number of filed reports in their bugzilla about slow kwin performance, but the most kwin bug reports are about actual crashes and quirks - kwin hasn’t actually crashed on me, it just seems that instead of a multi-GHz monster PC I’m running it on a 4.77 MHz Sinclair Spectrum - actually take that back, my Spectrum was faster than kwin is when this problem occurs… :X

But in my experience, most of the problems come down to incorrect driver installation, incompatible mix of packages or wrong settings.

You may be right, but I’m using the same installation methods, same mix of packages, and same settings that have worked for me pretty much from KDE 4.4 all the way through to KDE 4.9.5.

The kernel package has about ~45 MB, not much more than the nvidia driver…

I installed kernel 3.12.5, the most recent stable, then booted into runlevel 3, rebuilt the nvidia driver, but then rebooting into runlevel 5 X couldn’t start, so have dropped back to default for openSUSE 13.1 kernel 3.11.6 to get more info.

I’m not giving up, as I’m a stubborn mofo… :shame:

Chris W, NZ.

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And again, I don’t have any problem with OpenGL compositing on any of my systems. If KWin was that buggy I should have had at least one problem on one system in the last years, don’t you think?

Have you tried with a freshly created user? Maybe it is down to some KWin settings that don’t work well with your driver/card/system combination?

Or you could also try to generally enable Desktop Effects but disable all particular effects on the “All effects” tab. Do you have the problem then?
If not, it may be down to one particular effect. Try to enable all of them one-by-one to find out which one.

Most people probably don’t. This forum is an extremely small subset of the human populace, even a very small subset of those using KDE.

That’s correct.
But those people you mentioned complaining about their problems in other forums are representative?

And most of the time people are quiet if they don’t have problems. So just by looking at the complaints you don’t really get representative figures.

Arch, slack, kubuntu, openSUSE, Mint - its a sizeable list. You know fully well that you are the one who suggested my hardware or BIOS or drivers could be at fault - I told you those things had not changed, and had remained constant. Now you deride me for mentioning these other distros in the context of constants - I never claimed the distros were constant. That there are plenty of other distro’s users having similar troubles tells me more than anything else that kwin et al, and not just the openSUSE build of kwin, has a bug.

Well, you said the only constant regarding problems is KWin. But your whole system has changed, maybe KWin just exposes a bug in the nvidia driver regarding your current combination of system software and hardware?
Still you insist on KWin being buggy?

On Ubuntu f.e. they apparently have a problem with faulty nvidia driver packages for a while now. So no wonder that many (K)ubuntu users have problems with KWin. (and the KWin developers now even just reject bug reports from Ubuntu users because of that)

One part of the problem here is that the proprietary nvidia driver just overwrites some system libraries (libglx, libGL) with its own incompatible versions. This can break everything when you install system updates f.e…

I have done. There are quite a number of filed reports in their bugzilla about slow kwin performance, but the most kwin bug reports are about actual crashes and quirks - kwin hasn’t actually crashed on me, it just seems that instead of a multi-GHz monster PC I’m running it on a 4.77 MHz Sinclair Spectrum - actually take that back, my Spectrum was faster than kwin is when this problem occurs… :X

And again I have to ask: If you think that KWin is so buggy/immature/whatever, why don’t you try something else? It’s not that you are forced to use KWin. You can even use a different Window Manager with KDE.
Maybe GNOME f.e. has the same problems? Maybe not, but it would be interesting to find out.

You may be right, but I’m using the same installation methods, same mix of packages, and same settings that have worked for me pretty much from KDE 4.4 all the way through to KDE 4.9.5.

Right, but most of your system has changed now. Maybe the nvidia driver has problems with your current setup?
And of course there have been changes in KWin’s compositing (with 4.10 especially I think), so it can suddenly show a different behavior with the same driver. But that’s not necessarily a bug in KWin then.

I installed kernel 3.12.5, the most recent stable, then booted into runlevel 3, rebuilt the nvidia driver, but then rebooting into runlevel 5 X couldn’t start, so have dropped back to default for openSUSE 13.1 kernel 3.11.6 to get more info.

Hm, so maybe the nvidia driver doesn’t work with kernel 3.12 again? Pity. I really thought it would, the latest version at least.

It is unfortunate that you have this problem. But taking this as a general measure and state that KWin is buggy/immature/unusable/whatever (and maybe even suggesting to remove it from the distribution because of that) is just plain wrong.

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Until I installed KDE 4.11 on openSUSE 12.2, and then tried to update to openSUSE 13.1 I would have said the same thing.

I was working with one of the KDE devs on the problem last night, and he got me to issue “qdbus org.kde.kwin /KWin supportInformation” to gather info about my setup - on issuing that command the screen flickered for an instant, and since then OpenGL compositing has worked without slowdown, including surviving 2 cold boots. I know, thats an odd behaviour, but its working, so I’m going to monitor the performance closely and not change any settings for now, as it is setup how I want it.

Hm, so maybe the nvidia driver doesn’t work with kernel 3.12 again? Pity. I really thought it would, the latest version at least.

I had a quick look at Xorg.0.log after X failed to start, and it bugged out very early into its startup process. Never mind, that build of X seems to work fine with the default kernel-desktop for openSUSE 13.1 and nvidia 331.20 so I’ll stick with that now that compositing is behaving itself for now.

It is unfortunate that you have this problem. But taking this as a general measure and state that KWin is buggy/immature/unusable/whatever (and maybe even suggesting to remove it from the distribution because of that) is just plain wrong.

I still stand by my opinion after trawling the kwin bug reports on bugs.kde.org that it is not just a few people having trouble with kwin - my troubles are actually not as bad as many other reported bugs, as most bug reports are about kwin crashing and throwing up quirks that prevent KDE from working fully. There is a lot going on with kwin too, as you mention, with rewrites happening to integrate wayland etc from KDE 4.10 onwards. If I’ve seemed a little blunt, then my apologies - just lucky it has been raining here a lot during this holiday, so I’ve not felt so bad spending time trying to fix the problem instead of being out and about hiking etc. :open_mouth:

Chris W, NZ