English question

Hi,

English not being my first language, I have a problem differentiating
“login” as in entering a system, and “login” as in writing to a log
file. O:-)

Maybe one of them needs a double ‘g’ :-?

Perhaps some person here would be so kind to post some examples or a
link to a RTFM? O:-))

It’s just one of the many doubts I have when writing in English. And
being surrounded by a fully non English environment, it means that “I
learn to make more mistakes” with the passing years. Maybe what I need
is an “English for dummies with computer jargon” guide, as a reminder!

And of course, classic netiquette, since Fidonet times, has been not to
tell people of their grammar or orthography errors; I agree with this,
as a general rule, but on the other hand, I don’t learn of my errors and
I get worse at them.


Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)

My guess is writing a log file is ‘logging’. But let the native speakers do their thing:)

“login” is almost always a reference to entering/authenticating to a system.

Use “logging” for writing a log entry. I guess “logging” could also mean cutting down trees :stuck_out_tongue:

On 2014-08-27, holden87 <holden87@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:
> My guess is writing a log file is ‘logging’.

Absolutely correct.

The stem is the verb: log'. In nautical terms, to log’ would be to `record a missive down in a log-book’. The active
present tense of the third person singular conjugates thus:


He logs.
He is logging.
He has logged.
He has been logging.

In nautical English, the usage of this verb may be preposition-free or followed by down' or up’.

The etymology of login', in terms of prompting a username/password combination is however very different. The word login’ is a contraction of log-in' or log in’. When log' is followed by the preposition in’ or on', it refers specifically to computational usage associated with prompting a username/password combination. Technically speaking, the word login’ does not exist (it is certainly not in the Oxford English Dictionary) and therefore its inclusion in a
U.K. version of Linux constitutes a `bug’ :).

On Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:45:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> English not being my first language, I have a problem differentiating
> “login” as in entering a system

“log in” is the verb phrase used for logging into a system (opposite of
“log out”. “login” is a noun that describes the screen/page (“the login
page”).

> and “login” as in writing to a log
> file.

“logging” is the word here.

This is according to what is considered the definitive text on the
terminology, the Microsoft Manual of Style (yes, it’s Microsoft - but it
is the source that’s used by most documentation writers to define the
style). When this guide doesn’t cover something, they reference the
Chicago Manual of Style, which in turn references Eric Raymond’s Hacker’s
Dictionary.

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

My mother language is Greek and now Russian. Last years i had problems with my english but now i try to being ok with my english. Sometimes these verbs make my life difficult(log in etc). In my opinion is the way who you use the language. English for me are more diffcult than Greek and Russian because it is different for what i want to say or to write. I say that depends the mother language who you speak. People who speak latin type languages for them is easy to learn english. People who speak Greek and I say myself is easy to learn Russian(that’s an opinion).

It is very easy to learn enough English to communicate simply but English is by far the most difficult language in the world to learn fully because it has absorbed so many influences from Nordic, Germanic, French, Latin, Greek and Indian languages among others along with their ways of doing things which means that there is no consistency in English grammar and syntax. On top of that, what is considered ‘correct’ has changed many times over the last 1,000 years.

By comparison languages like Greek and Czech (the nearest language to Russian which I know) are extremely simple to learn - not least because, while they have absorbed foreign words, they have tended to retain relatively consistent grammar and syntax.

Yep. Yes. Yessir. Yup. :slight_smile:

(Was only going to reply “Yep.”, but message editor would not let me do so, as in “The message you have entered is too short.”.) :wink:

It all depends also on the cultural influence. Many of us have been watching American cartoons & shows while we were kids, so we learned English subversively. I’m a bilingual child otherwise, my native languages are Slovene and Serbian, both slavic languages, but i remember i had a lot of difficulties when i took up Macedonian. A language so similar to Serbian, but yet so different :slight_smile: I ran into quite a number of problems. Russian does seem easier, spending some time there and listening to my gf, who’s a Russian language major, it seem like a basis for all slavic languages.

I also learned a little french and very little german + a little portuguese. For me, portuguese and greek sound by far the best. Hope to learn more portuguese and learn greek some day.

Greek in my opinion is also difficult to learn by someone who is not Greek. We have difficult grammar and difficult syntax. Every word for example i which is read ι you can have in Greek language those i(ει,οι,ι,υ) for e which is the e you can have (ε,αι) and of course every world is has it’s syntax and its dictation which is specific.

On Wed, 27 Aug 2014 16:02:15 GMT
Jim Henderson <hendersj@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:45:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> > English not being my first language, I have a problem
> > differentiating “login” as in entering a system
>
> “log in” is the verb phrase used for logging into a system (opposite
> of “log out”. “login” is a noun that describes the screen/page (“the
> login page”).
>
> > and “login” as in writing to a log
> > file.
>
> “logging” is the word here.
>
> This is according to what is considered the definitive text on the
> terminology, the Microsoft Manual of Style (yes, it’s Microsoft - but
> it is the source that’s used by most documentation writers to define
> the style). When this guide doesn’t cover something, they reference
> the Chicago Manual of Style, which in turn references Eric Raymond’s
> Hacker’s Dictionary.
>

I started out programming on an IBM mainframe many years ago so,
although I retired ten years ago, I still consider that I “logon” and
“logoff”. :wink:


Graham P Davis, Bracknell, Berks.
openSUSE 13.1 (64-bit); KDE 4.13.3; AMD Phenom II X2 550 Processor;
Kernel: 3.11.10; Video: nVidia GeForce 210 (using nVidia driver);
Sound: ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA)

God that “log in” is almost solved :slight_smile: I have also heard/read “log on” “sign in” and “sign on”. When you use the command it’s written “login” right?

More confusing is: “log out”, log off", “sign out” and “sign off”. When you use the command it’s written “logout” right? The examples is collected from ComputerSweden ~“languagewebb”.

Is it any difference in UK and US English in this cases?

For **myself **and my sometime poor English I have problem to pick up German. It should be easier with the closer connection to Scandinavian. Of course it have some to do with how often you have contact with the language. Dutch is easier in talked form, written not so easy. Africans (old Dutch and a fork) is harder both talked and written. My little Polish have almost been forgotten. My little Arabic has gone as well.

But my Spanish is great:
-una cerveza bien fria por favor! I mean do you have to know any more of a language?

Written with a :wink: in my eye.

regards

Greek grammar and syntax is derived from Proto-Indo-European of which family Czech and Bengali probably retain the most of the original grammar and syntax. Like many European languages Greek has simplified and adapted its grammar and syntax but it still retains more consistency than English. For example, ou can stand for 13 different sounds in English and there are very few rules to tell you which is right unless you know. It is this lack of consistency that makes English so difficult.

On Wed, 27 Aug 2014 20:16:01 +0000, stamostolias wrote:

> My mother language is Greek and now Russian. Last years i had problems
> with my english but now i try to being ok with my english. Sometimes
> these verbs make my life difficult(log in etc). In my opinion is the way
> who you use the language. English for me are more diffcult than Greek
> and Russian because it is different for what i want to say or to write.
> I say that depends the mother language who you speak. People who speak
> latin type languages for them is easy to learn english. People who speak
> Greek and I say myself is easy to learn Russian(that’s an opinion).

You’re not the only one who has said that - I found (while traveling in
Spain a few years back) that a background in Spanish helped me understand
Catalan (which is almost the same as Spanish in a lot of ways), but
also that it helps me understand some French, Italian (though some of my
understanding of Italian comes from having played classical music - you
learn some Italian that way, since western music takes a lot of
terminology from Italian).

I learned how to read and pronounce Russian, but understanding it (and
the grammar) was a mystery to me. :slight_smile:

Jim


Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 11:21:24 +0000, Graham P Davis wrote:

> I started out programming on an IBM mainframe many years ago so,
> although I retired ten years ago, I still consider that I “logon” and
> “logoff”. :wink:

I see that every once in a while, but those are considered - how do I put
this delicately? :wink: - anachronisms. :wink:

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

On Thu, 28 Aug 2014 13:56:01 +0000, jonte1 wrote:

> that “log in” is almost solved :slight_smile: I have also heard/read “log on”
> “sign in” and “sign on”. When you use the command it’s written “login”
> right?

“Log on” is also considered proper usage from what I recall.

“login” and “logout” as CLI commands are valid - because spaces aren’t
allowed in command names, usually.

“I will log in with the ‘login’ command.” - that’s a properly constructed
sentence describing the action and the command.

> More confusing is: “log out”, log off", “sign out” and “sign off”. When
> you use the command it’s written “logout” right? The examples is
> collected from ComputerSweden ~“languagewebb”.

“I will log out with the ‘logout’ command.” - same construct as above.

The verb in both cases is ‘log’ - and the preposition that follows (“in”
or “out” - or “on” or “off”) defines the “direction” of the action.

> Is it any difference in UK and US English in this cases?

I don’t think so, but it is certainly possible. :slight_smile:

Jim


Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

I have never come across any difference in practice between ‘logon’ and ‘login’ but there is a subtle difference between ‘sign on’ and ‘sign off’ and ‘sign in’ and ‘sign out.’ In UK English, at least, the former normally refers to starting and ending a duty period whereas the latter refers to entering and leaving an area controlled for some security reason. In some occupations the two are effectively synonymous but this example is typical of the inexplicable complexity of English.

So, by analogy, ‘log in’ might be more appropriate when a password is required but then, if you are logging on at the start of a duty period and logging off at the end, what’s the difference?

On 2014-08-27 16:12, flymail wrote:
> On 2014-08-27, holden87 <> wrote:
>> My guess is writing a log file is ‘logging’.
>
> Absolutely correct.
>
> The stem is the verb: log'. In nautical terms, to log’ would be to `record a missive down in a log-book’. The active

present tense of the third person singular conjugates thus:


> He logs.
> He is logging.
> He has logged.
> He has been logging.
> 

Ok…

I’ll try to remember.

In nautical English, the usage of this verb may be preposition-free or followed by down' or up’.

The etymology of login', in terms of prompting a username/password combination is however very different. The word &gt; login’ is a contraction of log-in' or log in’.

I thought so. I sometimes use the non-contracted form.

When log' is followed by the preposition in’ or on', it refers &gt; specifically to computational usage associated with prompting a username/password combination. Technically speaking, the &gt; word login’ does not exist (it is certainly not in the Oxford English Dictionary) and therefore its inclusion in a
U.K. version of Linux constitutes a `bug’ :).

Bugzilla number? Nay, just kidding :slight_smile:

Thanks!


Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)

On 2014-08-27 18:02, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:45:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> This is according to what is considered the definitive text on the
> terminology, the Microsoft Manual of Style (yes, it’s Microsoft - but it
> is the source that’s used by most documentation writers to define the
> style).

I guess it will be an expensive book.

> When this guide doesn’t cover something, they reference the
> Chicago Manual of Style, which in turn references Eric Raymond’s Hacker’s
> Dictionary.

The only guide I have is a big appendix on a big Webster Encyclopedic
Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, 1989 edition, on which
the leaf page says “$79.95 value”. I don’t know how much I paid for it,
but although expensive it was not as much as I thought it might cost
when I first saw it⁽¹⁾. The included “manual of style” appears to come
from the “United States Government Printing Office”. And of course,
computers were not included - LOL.

(1) I bought it in a coffe-restaurant-convenience-shop that
closed at 3 AM in Madrid - the VIP. I bought a lot of English
books in there, mostly fiction, some technical.
Interesting place on those years… I went often for hot
chocolate and books on late study nights… :slight_smile:

Chatting aside, English technical dictionaries and guides, like one for
Computer/Engineering English/Spanish, are very expensive and difficult
to find… Some I have seen on sale are for Windows. And I have not
located reliable/authoritative/cheap/gratis sources on Internet. Google
translate helps, though.

Here (Spain) we say that we want something “bueno, bonito y barato”, ie,
“good, nice and cheap” :wink:


Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)

On 2014-08-28 23:26, john hudson wrote:

> than English. For example, ou can stand for 13 different sounds in
> English and there are very few rules to tell you which is right unless
> you know. It is this lack of consistency that makes English so
> difficult.

I was going to say that. Me, I learnt how to pronounce and how to write
a word, as almost different entities. Meaning, I had to learn both
separately, never knowing how to pronounce a word by seeing it written.

Thus, if I know a word I normally know how to pronounce and write it
correctly, but new words are a problem: I don’t know how to pronounce
them and people don’t understand what I say. An English person might
/write/ that it is pronounced this or that like that other word - and I
don’t understand any of that! Greek to me :-p

That is, I actually need to both see and hear the word.


Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 “Bottle” at Telcontar)