On 2012-06-27 00:54, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> > It would not stop them for a second.
> Slowing them down isn’t a bad thing, though. Nothing is 100% effective,
> but that doesn’t mean that no measures should be taken, either.
Slowing them a bit is not worth the damage to liberties those laws can provoke.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:43:06 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2012-06-27 00:54, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> > It would not stop them for a second.
>> Slowing them down isn’t a bad thing, though. Nothing is 100%
>> effective,
>> but that doesn’t mean that no measures should be taken, either.
>
> Slowing them a bit is not worth the damage to liberties those laws can
> provoke.
I agree, it’s a question of finding the right balance, and that’s not
something that’s been found yet.
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C
On 06/26/2012 10:42 PM, Martin Helm wrote:
> is that enough of a justification that
> anyone has the right to go into my home and check it if I do it as well
> or to control my snail mail if I deal with it?
but now that is mixing apples and oranges…that is, going into your
home or opening your paper mail is dealing directly with your specific,
personal tangible/real property…but, we are here talking about the
movement of digits…
i don’t suppose any ISP is gonna hire some person to open up every
torrent, email, whatever you send/receive to see if there is an illegal
copy of “Snow White” enclosed…no, instead i guess the ISP will use
high speed software to ‘sniff’ around in the entire stream of bits
flowing through its pipes and when the sniffer finds evidence of
illegal activity it will flag the IPs (both ends) involved…
and, only after there is probable cause that theft is/has occurred will
the investigation become personal…
so, all of those do not move bits illegally have nothing to fear…
sure, the ISP might ‘teach’ their sniffer software to watch all streams
between their users and known troublesome (pirate?) IPs…just like
police often watch known drug dealers on street corners…no different:
if you don’t wanna get busted for drugs don’t buy them…and, if you
don’t wanna loose your ISP connection, don’t pirate stuff…
–
dd
On 06/26/2012 11:16 PM, MirceaKitsune wrote:
>
> My view is,
> you cannot ask companies to give things away for free, but at the same
> time you can’t treat people like robbers or actual criminals for
> downloading a song.
the problem with that line of reasoning is that we are not just
dealing with a good guy individual who downloads a song every once in a
while and a mean old, too rich, bully-company somewhere, who won’t
miss the royalties you (and others) avoid!
i know personally several song writers/performers who (in addition to
performing live all over the country) both produce CDs and license their
works for sale over (for example) iTunes and other digital outlets (as
well as actual CDs sold in music stores and at live events)…
if you, or anyone, wants to listen to their music for ‘free’ then you
can go and sample it online (often hearing/seeing the full song,
unaltered <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flwuUh6wKuQ>)…but, if you
want your own legal copy to listen to anytime and anywhere you choose,
then you need to recognize and reward their talent by helping my friends
put beans on their table to feed their kids, and give them the
pennies they need to buy their games, pay their rent etc etc etc etc
doing otherwise (downloading their work without paying for it) steals
food out of a really nice guy’s kid’s mouths.
> I either can’t find a
> CD I can buy in my country, or I don’t have money and means to pay
> online.
if you walk into a grocery store without money or means to pay, should
that store owner (and police) allow you to just take what you want?
> due to a serious family issue, we barely have the
> money to survive properly… which means I shouldn’t be allowed to hear
> the latest songs of my favorite bands and the like.
i am (really) very sorry to learn of your family issues…but, really
now, if you can’t afford to help my friend feed his kids (if you want
his music) then you should not steal it, any more than you would steal
food from a grocer…
> Another important note: There were multiple cases in which I wanted to
> buy games I torrented, after I played and finished them. For some of
> them I’m still sorry I didn’t get to.
but did you buy them? you do know, don’t you that those games were coded
by REAL people…nice folks, with homes, families, online jobs and all
of that (which you used earlier to justify ‘downloading’)…
you should NOT try to justify stealing them because after you tried them
you wished you had the money to buy them.
> A second important note: Another reason I prefer cracked content is
> that when you use the original, you depend on online checks and keys to
> install them (like DRM). For instance, my main OS is cracked Windows 7
well…then you break the law and therefore think it is ok…and hope it
never changes…personally i think Bill Gates has enough money…but,
on the other hand i know a nice guy (lives in Copenhagen) who works for
M$ (in the XBox line) who works is @ss off seven days a week for Mr.
Bills empire…should my friend have less pennies because of cracks
made by thieves??
i don’t buy MS software either…but, i don’t use it…i don’t use it because
i am unwilling to steal it…no, that is not true…the fact is i
wouldn’t use it if it were free (because there is better available).
i would pay to use Linux (and i do, almost everyday with my time i
give to this forum)…
–
dd
On 06/27/2012 09:41 AM, dd@home.dk wrote:
> i don’t buy MS software either…but, i use it…
oops! that should have read:
i don’t buy MS software either…but, i don’t use it…
–
dd
On 06/27/2012 07:01 PM, dd@home.dk wrote:
> On 06/27/2012 09:41 AM, dd@home.dk wrote:
>> i don’t buy MS software either…but, i use it…
>
> oops! that should have read:
>
> i don’t buy MS software either…but, i don’t use it…
>
I fixed it 4 u dd
–
Regards
swerdna
Am 27.06.2012 08:47, schrieb dd@home.dk:
> On 06/26/2012 10:42 PM, Martin Helm wrote:
>> is that enough of a justification that
>> anyone has the right to go into my home and check it if I do it as well
>> or to control my snail mail if I deal with it?
>
> but now that is mixing apples and oranges…that is, going into your
> home or opening your paper mail is dealing directly with your specific,
> personal tangible/real property…but, we are here talking about the
> movement of digits…
Movement of digits is content, it contains privacy, just because it is
not material does not matter, listening to my phone line (which is
moving digits today is not legal).
>
> i don’t suppose any ISP is gonna hire some person to open up every
> torrent, email, whatever you send/receive to see if there is an illegal
> copy of “Snow White” enclosed…no, instead i guess the ISP will use
> high speed software to ‘sniff’ around in the entire stream of bits
> flowing through its pipes and when the sniffer finds evidence of
> illegal activity it will flag the IPs (both ends) involved…
>
Who controls the ISP not to abuse it? Who controls the controller which
controls the ISP?
Such questions have to be answered.
What is evidence has to be answered precisely by the legislative not by
a consortium of companies deciding about measures how to prevent piracy.
> and, only after there is probable cause that theft is/has occurred will
> the investigation become personal…
>
> so, all of those do not move bits illegally have nothing to fear…
>
This argument is not valid. Driven to its extreme it means nobody needs
any privacy at all. But even worse, what is considered illegal here is
not defined by law but by the ISP!
> sure, the ISP might ‘teach’ their sniffer software to watch all streams
> between their users and known troublesome (pirate?) IPs…
> just like
> police often watch known drug dealers on street corners…no different:
It is different, watching “known drug dealers” compared to watching
everyone, everytime based on visits to IPs which are probably not
defined by the police/government/judge but by a blacklist created by a
company, a company/group of companies has NO absolutely NO right to take
over here where only legislative and executive shall be able to act.
> if you don’t wanna get busted for drugs don’t buy them…and, if you
> don’t wanna loose your ISP connection, don’t pirate stuff…
>
I speak about general control of people independent if they do something
or not.
I hope you got my main point:
We speak here about something planned by companies which would be called
vigilante justice if done by individuals!
It is no better than what the people do who pirate.
I am myself against piracy, I also know that the vast majority of
artists are not the multi million dollar per year super stars but people
who work hard for often little money and need the money they can get
from selling some of their songs/movies/ebooks/whatever else.
I have also a strict rule about proprietary software (I have no problem
with proprietary software, I only have problems with the behavior of
some companies like MS and have a problem with monopolies): If you use
it buy it, I hate it to pay for crap but I need one copy of Win 7 in a
virtual machine so I bought one.
I agree with you that listening to the songs I like (or watching the
latest Hollywood block buster) is not the kind of human or civil right
one can claim to justify stealing it.
It is clearly not the same as starving from hunger in which case the
takeaway of food without paying for it has a different quality.
There are more than enough legal ways to listen to music without paying:
Youtube and consorts
Internet radio and TV
Traditional radio and TV
maybe more
“fair use” to a certain degrees also allows in some countries to make
copies for personal use of parts of that - it depends.
–
PC: oS 12.1 x86_64 | i7-2600@3.40GHz | 16GB | KDE 4.8.4 | GeForce GT 420
ThinkPad E320: oS 12.1 x86_64 | i3@2.30GHz | 8GB | KDE 4.8.4 | HD 3000
eCAFE 800: oS 12.1 i586 | AMD Geode LX 800@500MHz | 512MB | KDE 3.5.10
On a separate note, I would like to inform everyone of something even more important. CISPA is going to expire soon and will be voted in the senate… probably secretly and under the desk like we’ve been used to seeing (so no date is known). Everyone who is against it is strongly advised to call their senators ASAP and firmly ask them to vote against it! I don’t have a link but you should be able to find their phone numbers on google and older SOPA / CISPA articles… I’m too tired and outright sick of the whole thing to look them up myself. I consider this even more dangerous than the ISP initiative, and by all means hope this law won’t happen either 
As usual, please spread the word and re-post wherever you can so everyone knows. We need to show the senators those who oppose it are large in number, since as with SOPA they will not be able to vote on a law that everyone is visibly against. The house already passed it, so this is even more urgent for that reason.
On 06/27/2012 11:43 AM, Martin Helm wrote:
> it depends.
i think a lot of us here share many values and we need not bicker over
the small details…
i am VERY against (for example) Big Companies (like MS/Disney/Sony/etc)
forcing ISPs to take action or end up in multi-jillion-dollar
lawsuits for ‘allowing’ their customers to steal digits…
and, i also know the ISP actions may (or may not) be any of: justified,
legal, “fair”, or sure to never harm the innocent…
BUT, we must remember:
The Real Villain in this soap opera is not Microsoft, Disney, Sony,
AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobil, MCI or etc etc etc…nope, the BAD guy(s) here
are the thieves who ‘download’ a song once in a while, or manufacture
CDs and DVDs to sell on the street corners, or operate the web sites
which promote digital theft.
if all of those BAD guys would have ceased their illegal acts in 1995,
this thread would have never started!
–
dd
Am 27.06.2012 14:26, schrieb dd@home.dk:
> if all of those BAD guys would have ceased their illegal acts in 1995,
> this thread would have never started!
>
To make it short (and I promise it is my last post in this thread), I
think whatever will happen has a big potential to do a lot of damage and
has a very small potential to reduce piracy.
What they will get IMHO is that they will catch a lot a technically
unskilled casual pirates (the 10 year old who has not yet learned how to
obfuscate connections) and probably will do harm to people like “Aunt
Tilly” who is not able to secure her network good enough to avoid abuse.
Everyone with the tiniest little bit of knowledge (which includes the
vast majority of users here) knows how to bypass such control easily by
using encryption/proxies/obfuscated connections even if not pirating
anything.
In principle of course I could say I do not care what the funny US
people do, but as so often I am sure when it happens there our own RIAA
equivalent (GEMA) will jump in and we can for sure expect the same
discussion soon where I live. Would not be the first time this happens.
It seems that in the beginning (you cite the mid 90s) all that companies
slept and now years later they start to act like mad to reduce the
financial damage.
–
PC: oS 12.1 x86_64 | i7-2600@3.40GHz | 16GB | KDE 4.8.4 | GeForce GT 420
ThinkPad E320: oS 12.1 x86_64 | i3@2.30GHz | 8GB | KDE 4.8.4 | HD 3000
eCAFE 800: oS 12.1 i586 | AMD Geode LX 800@500MHz | 512MB | KDE 3.5.10
Neither valid nor true. History is full of people who thought they had nothing to fear because they never did anything illegal.
Although I’ve been bringing a lot of “related news” to this thread since the initial discussion, I again received some shocking news from EFF by email (they’re a serious source of information) about a potential revive of the actual SOPA / PIPA.
It appears Hollywood is trying to shut down all cloud websites. Basically, it wishes to take down Youtube, Google Drive, and all cloud services out there, the same way Megaupload was removed. The article mentions them trying to circumvent congress so they can force their law through without a vote. What this means is most major websites which allow file storage would be gone… and we are back at SOPA as we know it.
This comes just a few days after I heard about the ISP initiative and an update on CISPA. Jesus Christ… has the world gone completely mad? Are those groups desperate beyond limit to shut down this internet? They now want sites like Youtube to disappear forever… who almost entirely addressed the issue of copyright material being uploaded. Is this even about copyright any more, or is that just a pretext?
Yeah, I agree… this is an outright war with the entertainment industry at this point. I don’t feel like fueling the fire here so people can jump to their own conclusion… I just found the article and linked it. There will probably be more information soon, and if that’s true likely another blackout. Feel free to re-post this post anywhere without asking.
On 06/28/2012 08:26 PM, MirceaKitsune wrote:
>
> Are those groups desperate beyond limit to shut down this internet? They
> now want sites like Youtube to disappear forever… who almost entirely
> addressed the issue of copyright material being uploaded. Is this even
> about copyright any more, or is that just a pretext?
>
> Yeah, I agree… this is an outright war with the entertainment
> industry at this point.
nice try! but, there are (at least) two ways to look at this situation…
your way and others…
you choose: the entertainment industry is trying to “shut down this
internet”
i choose: the entertainment industry is trying to stop piracy…if there
were no piracy then the entertainment industry would have no
complaint, and no one would listen to their whines…and you wouldn’t
be scared they are gonna “shut down this internet”!
so, put your effort into stopping online piracy…
and stop saying and believing it is ok for good guys with a job and
email to read to ‘download’ a song, a cracked operating system, movie or
game…
as an online thief YOU are part of the problem–whipping up FEAR that
the big bad ugly rich Companies are trying to shut down the internet
won’t work here…
well, not with me.
–
dd
My view is clearly a very different one than yours. What you are saying is “if those people are attacking the internet, let’s be understanding to them and give them what they want, maybe they’ll stop”. No, that’s not the way I think, and even if their piracy problem would be addressed they would continue because they’ll always want more. I believe even someone on the pro-piracy side should care more about the structure of the internet, and not accept such things so easily. Also, given the way me using the internet is threatened (99.9% to do legit things) it’s not making me any more understanding on the piracy debate… quite the contrary. I feel like sharing stuff just to hit on Hollywood now, and I barely even shared copyright at my life.
Now if you’ve read that article, it talks about them trying to push a law past congress to implement a SOPA-like law, which would threaten users files on Youtube, Google Drive, etc. If EFF or DemandProgress are wrong and it’s just something about the Megaupload case, ok. And regardless of what Megaupload did (maybe it was legitly taken down, not contesting) I agree that people who had their files there lost them abusively. How would you feel if you stored important files there (removed them from your drive) and after this they would be gone? This shows the ignorance of the people who handled the case… they could have brought the site in read-only mode for a month or three and let people get their files back first. They had no fault they were keeping their stuff on a website that got in legal issues. But they don’t care about the users.
I also stated I am not worried about piracy specifically, but the fact that the safety of the internet overall is at risk. I’d appreciate it if you and others stopped pinning things on me because you disagree with this. If you support internet censorship as a means of dealing with piracy, that’s your thing. I will never agree with any way to deal with it that involves taking down websites, taking actions against the everyday user, or censoring traffic. They can do what ever they like otherwise.
On 2012-06-29 07:55, dd@home.dk wrote:
> nice try! but, there are (at least) two ways to look at this situation…
>
> your way and others…
>
> you choose: the entertainment industry is trying to “shut down this internet”
>
> i choose: the entertainment industry is trying to stop piracy…if there
> were no piracy then the entertainment industry would have no complaint,
> and no one would listen to their whines…and you wouldn’t be scared they
> are gonna “shut down this internet”!
I also think that the industry are the bad guys in this game. It is their
fault entirely that piracy is so successful by charging absurdly high fares.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
On 06/29/2012 02:33 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> charging absurdly high fares.
well! don’t forget that champagne, caviar, limos, diamonds/gold and
4000+ square foot mansions in the Hollywood hills and etc cost some
pretty big money… 
so, they must have “high fares” just to scrape by…
unfortunately, their high fares for licensing are legal…
avoiding the high fares by not watching/listening/attending/buying is
also legal…
pirating the products to avoid the high fares is both not legal and
prompts the copyright owners to sit around eating champagne and
discussing how to stop the folks who feel entitled to use their output
without even saying “Thank you.”
anyway, who knows: maybe their absurdly high fares would drop
some/become reasonable if everyone who watched/listened/used/played paid
something…
–
dd
On 2012-06-29 15:51, dd@home.dk wrote:
> On 06/29/2012 02:33 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> charging absurdly high fares.
>
> well! don’t forget that champagne, caviar, limos, diamonds/gold and 4000+
> square foot mansions in the Hollywood hills and etc cost some pretty big
> money…
>
> so, they must have “high fares” just to scrape by…
Heh. Yes, I also like money. Money is nice… if it is mine >;-)
> avoiding the high fares by not watching/listening/attending/buying is also
> legal…
>
> pirating the products to avoid the high fares is both not legal and prompts
> the copyright owners to sit around eating champagne and discussing how to
> stop the folks who feel entitled to use their output without even saying
> “Thank you.”
> anyway, who knows: maybe their absurdly high fares would drop some/become
> reasonable if everyone who watched/listened/used/played paid something…
I rather think the contrary: that they will have to change the prices
thanks to piracy. >:-)
You see, if I try to sell a house at an absurdly high price, I find no
buyers, and at the end I have to lower the prize. The fair price is fixed
by the market, not by me: I don’t have a monopoly.
They did have a monopoly, the lost it, and want to recover it by force.
Well, they can go… %&/&$ - I can not say what I think in English, my
language is not that good (and it would be edited out, anyway).
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
On 2012-06-29 16:40, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2012-06-29 15:51, dd@home.dk wrote:
>> anyway, who knows: maybe their absurdly high fares would drop some/become
>> reasonable if everyone who watched/listened/used/played paid something…
>
> I rather think the contrary: that they will have to change the prices
> thanks to piracy. >:-)
Years ago, we had vinyl records. Then CDs were invented. As they said it
was a better technology and new, they were priced at about double the vinyl
records (at least here, Spain).
We though that they would eventually go down, but that did not happen.
Instead, technology improved, and the people found that they could clone
those disks very cheaply…
So here we are, piracy is higher than ever, and they did not lower the
prices. The people think that those things are too expensive compared with
their real production costs… so they don’t have qualms at buying
counterfeit CDs.
Well, IMHO, it serves them right.
I’m not condoning piracy, I’m only saying that it is their fault entirely
for their greediness.
–
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)
On Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:36:03 +0000, MirceaKitsune wrote:
> this. If you support internet censorship as a means of dealing with
> piracy, that’s your thing.
Just a note: This has been a borderline ‘politics’ thread (along with
borderline “condoning piracy”), which the T&Cs prohibit, but since it’s
remained civil and non-personal (for the most part), we’ve opted to let
it continue since it’s policed itself well.
I think we’ve a very good job of not making this discussion personal.
Let’s keep it that way, or we’ll have to close the thread.
Also note that while I’m quoting this particular bit, my comment is
directed at all participants - myself included.
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C
Thanks. My SOPA thread on this forum was closed last winter for being political, although I try to keep the political part low on those. The initial subject isn’t related to politics since it was initiated by ISP’s and companies, not some party or another (at least not directly). So I hope it is ok.
As for keeping it civil, I try that as well. Unfortunately, on other forums where I posted this, people who support it (and admitted working in the entertainment industry) could not help themselves from personal attacks and an overall behavior I don’t even like talking about. I’m glad it’s not the case here.