Debian and openSUSE: the face-off

[user]

Hello openSUSE people. I am currently running OpenSolaris. I am going to switch to Linux.

I had narrowed it down to four different distributions:

• Ubuntu
• Fedora
• Debian
• openSUSE

I scratched out Ubuntu and Fedora, due to being a slightly-less-good rip-off of Debian, and an instable mess, respectively.

That, of course, leaves Debian and openSUSE. I had decided which one to use (I’m not telling which). But then it occurred to me: that wouldn’t be fun!

So, let’s have a face-off. I’ve posted this in the Debian forum as well. Try to keep it clean, I’m not trying to start a flamewar here, only a friendly joke.

Real issues are good, but try to keep a sense of humor.

I like Debian because:
*Good package management
*Stability

I don’t like Debian because:
*The project is somewhat of a mess, in my opinion.

I like openSUSE because:
*It’s easy to use
*It’s stable

I don’t like openSUSE because:
*It has bad package management

So, why should I switch to openSUSE? Why is it better than Debian? Before responding, you should know what’s at stake:

*A chance to annoy the Debian people, your enemies.
*+1 user
*My rabid fanboy-ism
*A young, bendable mind, eager to contribute in some way (or just hang around and bother you)

Before you start, let me say this once again: this is a fun thing. Real issues are good, too, but let’s keep this humorous, alright?

Now, you have one week to convince me openSUSE is better than Debian. Gogogo!

For you suspicious types:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=40414

[ken_yap]

@Doctorzongo

I don’t like openSUSE because:
*It has bad package management

You’re mistaken there. BTW, I use both and zypper is every bit as good as apt, I would say even better, since it does the job of several separate apt- utilities.

*My rabid fanboy-ism
*A young, bendable mind, eager to contribute in some way (or just hang around and bother you)

Is that a promise or a threat? Maybe we should just let you inflict yourself on the Debian people. lol!

[Ramkatral]

Poor package management? That’s amusing, because package management is one of the reasons I LIKE opensuse. Next!

[caf4926]

*A chance to annoy the Debian people, your enemies.

Why would we want to do that and why would Debian people be our Enemies?

I’m not trying to start a flamewar here
You think!?

[Jonathan_R]

People really don’t understand package management. When comparing debian package management to and rpm based distro, you have to compare dpkg/dselect to rpm. You do not compare apt/synaptic to yum, yast, zypper and so on. You must realize that these are simply overlays to the package managers (rpm and dpkg). The differences between dpkg and rpm are more philosophical than anything.

[TaraIkeda]

I more or less favor Ubuntu over Debian or Fedora if you like to keep it simplistic, sure Debian is very stable but if you dont use the sid repositories.
If you like more up to date software Ubuntu might be a better bet with all the PPA repositories on a Hardy install.
Granted Hardy is showing signs of its age by now but still its stable and its fairly easy to get current.

[ken_yap]

@Jonathan_R

People really don’t understand package management. When comparing debian package management to and rpm based distro, you have to compare dpkg/dselect to rpm. You do not compare apt/synaptic to yum, yast, zypper and so on. You must realize that these are simply overlays to the package managers (rpm and dpkg). The differences between dpkg and rpm are more philosophical than anything.

It’s perfectly valid to compare the level at which the user interacts with the system these days, i.e. apt and zypper rather than the raw package management tools. These days, package management alone is less and less useful, you also want repository management too. That is to say, everything is getting connected.

I mean, who cares that a DEB is an “ar” archive with a control file, while an RPM is a “cpio” archive. All those details only interest hardcore package management tool developers. What matters these days is how easily you can get your fave app installed and running.

Then there’s the next level, the one-click installs which use metapackages.

[caf4926]

Then there’s the next level, the** one-click installs** which use metapackages.

My pet hate.
Why Oh Why do we need this. If anyone seriously acquainted with Linux uses these, I’ll be Very surprised.

Well, OK - I could ‘Use them’ - But then I’d have to go an sort out all the crappy mess it just made of my repo list.

[ken_yap]

@caf4926

But then I’d have to go an sort out all the crappy mess it just made of my repo list.

Here’s what I do: once I have installed the software I wanted from the one-click link, I disable all the repos that it added.

The downside is that there is a risk of running outdated software. But I’ll take the risk of that over messing up all my other software from the bleeding edge repo.

The problem with the range of repos is one that has yet to be resolved. At the moment there isn’t much control over the range of a totally stable but may be missing some needed fixes or features system, to a you have the greatest and most wobbly system. No doubt this will get worked out with time.

[caf4926]

OK, so that shuts me up!
Someone seriously acquainted with Linux does use OneClick.

Don’t you find, aside from yourself - Users click away willy nilly. They end up with 2, 3 or more instances of the same repo and a resulting list of 20, 30 repo’s, whatever.

[ken_yap]

Yes, I’ve seen it many times on these forums. That’s why I will often ask them to display the version of the software. I think the last guy who did this got a bleeding edge version of iptables which came from Factory.

There probably need to be some warnings to go with these OCIs. Mind you I only did OCI for the restricted formats and one other thing.

[caf4926]

I kind of feel the same about the community list. Some people just install them all.

Guess it’s bound to happen to some extent.

Maybe you should do a nice HowTo for us with a focus on the OCI’s;)

[Jonathan_R]

@ken_yap

It’s perfectly valid to compare the level at which the user interacts with the system these days, i.e. apt and zypper rather than the raw package management tools. These days, package management alone is less and less useful, you also want repository management too. That is to say, everything is getting connected.

I mean, who cares that a DEB is an “ar” archive with a control file, while an RPM is a “cpio” archive. All those details only interest hardcore package management tool developers. What matters these days is how easily you can get your fave app installed and running.

Then there’s the next level, the one-click installs which use metapackages.

No. It’s that people think the overlays are the package managers, and their not. If you’re going to compare the interfaces on this level, then that’s fair, but understand that it’s on this level. apt, yum, zypper, they all pass the package management off to the respective package manager (dpkg or rpm).

It is true that what matters is how easy you can get your app installed. But then people complain about rpm or deb with out understanding the package management. It is this I fight. What people like or dislike is the overlays.

[ken_yap]

In a pedantic sense you are right, but most people wouldn’t know the difference between a DEB and a RPM if they came up and shook hands with them. And as you yourself say, the differences are philosophical, what they are more interested in are the results.

It’s sort of like getting upset at people who called those portable radios when they first came out, transistors. Or people who say can I play this on your MP3, even though it may be a video MP4 clip they want to view. Terms take on a life of their own.

[ken_yap]

@caf4926

Maybe you should do a nice HowTo for us with a focus on the OCI’s;)

That should be nice and short: Don’t. Unless you have to.

[user]

> I don’t like openSUSE because:
> *It has bad package management

man zypper
http://en.opensuse.org/Zypper
http://en.opensuse.org/Upgrade#Distribution_Upgrade_with_zypper
http://opensuse-tutorials.com/category/zypper/
http://en.opensuse.org/Concepts#Software_Package_Managers_.28SPMs.29
http://en.opensuse.org/YaST
http://en.opensuse.org/YUM
http://en.opensuse.org/Smart
http://en.opensuse.org/Apt

you can have your openSUSE and apt too…but, don’t miss the chance to
have imo the at least as capable zypper, or smart, or yast…

–
.~.
/V
/( )\ natural_pilot
^^-^^

[user]

> Users click away willy nilly.

i think it is unlikely “the openSUSE community” can protect all users
from their own willy nilly tendencies and NOT re-invent Redmond’s
restrictive and sometimes overbearing Training Wheels (aka: choice
limiter)…

eventually folks have to become responsible for their own ignorance,
and fix it…

–
.~.
/V
/( )\ natural_pilot
^^-^^

[TaraIkeda]

@caf4926

OK, so that shuts me up!
Someone seriously acquainted with Linux does use OneClick.

Don’t you find, aside from yourself - Users click away willy nilly. They end up with 2, 3 or more instances of the same repo and a resulting list of 20, 30 repo’s, whatever.

Well so far I only used the one click installer maybe 3 times, of course being a fresh face to OpenSuse I did get curious about it.
It did come in handy in updating the gimp though

[caf4926]

@natural_pilot

i think it is unlikely “the openSUSE community” can protect all users
from their own willy nilly tendencies and NOT re-invent Redmond’s
restrictive and sometimes overbearing Training Wheels (aka: choice
limiter)…

eventually folks have to become responsible for their own ignorance,
and fix it

This is quite true.

However, maybe some words of caution? But I guess they’ll just ignore that.

[Jonathan_R]

@natural_pilot

> I don’t like openSUSE because:
> *It has bad package management

man zypper
Zypper - openSUSE
Upgrade - openSUSE
openSUSE Tutorials
Concepts - openSUSE
YaST - openSUSE
Yum - openSUSE
Package Management/Smart - openSUSE
APT - openSUSE

you can have your openSUSE and apt too…but, don’t miss the chance to
have imo the at least as capable zypper, or smart, or yast…

–
.~.
/V
/( )\ natural_pilot
^^-^^

Thank you. I’m glad someone understands. You did however miss a link. It’s not your fault though. Very few people know about it. It’s my book on smart package manager. While it is on smart, it does cover package management quite thoroughly. Smart Package Manager It’s not quite done yet, but it’s getting there. For those wanting to better understand package management, this would be a good read.