Hi I’ve been using openSUSE for 2 years and tired to reformat my laptop every 9mths,looking for some distro that going rolling update,that everything in bleeding edge.
Found this Tumbleweed interesting,might be the one I’m looking for,kind like Arch Linux,now thinking to switch to Arch.
Any suggestion? Should I take SUSE Tumbleweed or Arch?
My laptop is Dell Latitude D620~Intel Core2Duo T5500 1.66Ghz~Intel 945GM integrated graphic~2GB DDR667 RAM.
Now with openSUSE 11.4 KDE x86-64,I got my wireless Broadcom 4311 work with b43-firmware,would it be a problem if I use Tumbleweed?
Hi, the b43 stuff is available for Tumbleweed see below:
john@tumbleweed114:~> zypper se -s b43
Loading repository data...
Reading installed packages...
S | Name | Type | Version | Arch | Repository
--+--------------------+------------+----------------------+--------+------------------
| b43-firmware | package | 4.174.64.19-3.pm.3.1 | noarch | TumbleweedPackman
| b43-firmware | srcpackage | 4.174.64.19-3.pm.3.1 | noarch | TumbleweedPackman
| b43-fwcutter | package | 012-9.1 | x86_64 | openSUSE-11.4-Oss
| b43-fwcutter | package | 012-9.1 | i586 | openSUSE-11.4-Oss
| b43legacy-firmware | package | 3.130.20.0-2.pm.2.1 | noarch | TumbleweedPackman
| b43legacy-firmware | srcpackage | 3.130.20.0-2.pm.2.1 | noarch | TumbleweedPackman
You asked:
Any suggestion? Should I take SUSE Tumbleweed or Arch?
SUSE Tumbleweed
Thanks bro,I’m in.
Just upgraded everything to Tumbleweed,so far so good,glad that those ‘stressful’ conflict solution during upgrade didn’t kill me 
Well the first thing I found after this upgrade is better handling of KDE,and the file transfer speed boost,with usb drive.
Great job openSUSE & Tumbleweed developer lol!
AFAIK Arch Linux is very different from OpenSUSE.
The “Arch Way” for example prohibits making beginner-friendly configuration tools like YaST.
They will try to make everything as simple and clean as it can be, but WITHOUT addidional “bloated and buggy” software.
That means you need to know linux configuration files quite good, no gui and automated one click tools there.
This distro is therefore not recommended for beginners, but since you have been using Linux for at least 2 years it may be a way to go.
I like this way of thinking, but since its sometimes much simpler just to use YaST and not bother, i like to have choice that OpenSuSE gives.
I think that Arch has less support than OpenSuSE from software developers (just the way OpenSuSE has less support than Ubuntu and its sometimes easier to find ubuntu deb than suse rpm).
On the other hand its very mature rolling distro. Tumbleweed still can make some problems (new kernel for example broke bluetooth support for me, i got to freeze my kernel at 2.6.38). Im sticking to SuSE Tumbleweed though, im very pleased with it after using windows exclusively for almost 15 years.
And GNOME2 reminds me Amiga Workbench days a bit :P. Im free from M$ again and still … i can play windows games under wine … just wonderful:P
The only thing im very afraid is gnome 3. I dont like it at all. But it its distro-independent problem 
I’ve been using arch for about 4 years. And since the release of 11.4 I’m using Tumbleweed as well. IMHO arch is quite beginner friendly because of its wiki, there is almost everything you need to know to properly set up your desktop, but it takes time e.g. setting up KDE desktop takes about 2 hours (without the time to download the packages).
But arch has at least two advantages:
- arch has nvidia driver in one of the repositories
- arch has AUR (Arch Linux User Repository) where is a lot of PKGBUILDs (which are similar to spec files in RPM) so even if the package you need is not in repositories and you find it in AUR you can easily build the package using makepkg
And one truly beautiful thing about arch is that everything you install is package e.g. I want to install some package which is available only in binary form, so I download it write simple PKGBUILD and run makepkg… and the result is package which I can install with pacman (arch’s package manager)… which is IMHO far better than running sh NVIDIA… and poor zypper has no idea what you installed…
But other than that I think Tumbleweed is good choice.
Hi,
I think it should be emphasised that Tumbleweed is not a true rolling distribution. It is a set of repositories (if you include Packman) which provide more recent and regular updates to the underlying openSUSE distribution.
At release time you still need up upgrade your system (i.e. change repositories and zypper dup) and, more importantly, there are some updates that don’t go into Tumbleweed because changed library dependencies would conflict with the underlying distribution libraries.
I really wish that people would stop calling Tumbleweed a “rolling diatribution” it is not - at least in comparison to the likes of Arch and Gentoo.
If you really want a rolling distribution (install once and continually update) then Tumbleweed doesn’t technically qualify.
N.B: I have used Gentoo and Arch, for 4 years and 2 years respectively, so I feel adequately qualified to comment on this inaccuracy.
Regards,
Neil Darlow
@neildarlow is right. Tumbleweed is not a rolling distro. It was meant for those that do want to stay up to date, yet don’t want the experimental status Factory has.
For those who are looking for long term support, there’s also the openSUSE Evergreen project, don’t know much about it, but I know it’s there.
I don’t use arch so I can not comment on the full functionality of this PKGBUILD you refer to. But I do note it is often EASY for the average openSUSE user to rebuild an rpm for tumbleweed, as long as the basic library/dependency references have not changed from an existing rpm spec file.
One simply downloads (in the case of 11.4 tumbleweed) the openSUSE application.src.rpm file from a previous openSUSE build and run:
rpmbuild --rebuild application.src.rpm
and that will advise of any missing dependencies. Solve the missing dependencies, and run again:
rpmbuild --rebuild application.src.rpm
and if successful it will create an rpm that one can then install with the openSUSE package manager zypper.
You’ve got a good point there. We could say this about Tumbleweed if we wanted to be more accurate:
openSUSE is a periodically updated distro
SUSE Tumbleweed is a continuously updated distro
How about that? Closer to the facts?
It seems you make the right point in that last sentence (never looked at Gentoo). Although IIRC, the original aim of Tumbleweed was that with continual updating/upgrading (using zypper dup), one would arrive on the next release.
Has it actually been decided as to the content and form of Tumbleweed’s repo(s) at the next release (12.1)? I thought it was still under discussion.
I think a proper description would be openSUSE-11.4+Tumbleweed updates. This emphasises the base distribution and the fact that Tumbleweed consists of updates.
Regards,
Neil Darlow
Not enough, as some updates are not from Tumbleweed. That is in the spirit of being pedantic.
IMO it’s a non-issue (or known unknown whatever) until 12.1 is about to release or at least when RC1 releases.
I think it is appropriate to imagine Tumbleweed as rolling continually with the current openSUSE repos for 11.3, 11.4, 12.1, 12.2, 12.3… and continuously with the Tumbleweed repos. Based on that, an appropriate name would be openSUSE Tumbleweed.
And on reflection, for me that makes it a true rolling distro. I do find the imagery in the word “tumbleweed” does accurately describe the way the new distro “rolls” forward. I think you have focused too closely on the exact meaning of the word “rolling”, which to me is kind of a red herring, kind of getting sidetracked by the meaning of a word.
That sounds like you’re claiming “poetic licence”. Interesting but unusual in the context of computer systems.
On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 10:06:03 +0000, neildarlow wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think it should be emphasised that Tumbleweed is not a true rolling
> distribution. It is a set of repositories (if you include Packman) which
> provide more recent and regular updates to the underlying openSUSE
> distribution.
That’s exactly what a “rolling” distribution is, why do you think it
somehow isn’t?
> At release time you still need up upgrade your system (i.e. change
> repositories and zypper dup)
Which isn’t a big deal, and again, is still a “rolling” distro.
> and, more importantly, there are some
> updates that don’t go into Tumbleweed because changed library
> dependencies would conflict with the underlying distribution libraries.
Like what? Specifics please, I do not know of any library that I have
not updated for this reason, so I would like to figure out what you
are referring to.
> I really wish that people would stop calling Tumbleweed a “rolling
> diatribution” it is not - at least in comparison to the likes of Arch
> and Gentoo.
As a long-time Gentoo user, and developers (yes, I’m still a Gentoo
developer with commit rights), and an even longer Debian user, I think I
know what a “rolling” disto is, and as such, I have modeled Tumbleweed in
the same manner.
> If you really want a rolling distribution (install once and continually
> update) then Tumbleweed doesn’t technically qualify.
If you are refering to the "must change the “11.3” to “11.4” when a new
release happens every 8 months, then yes, you might get away with that.
But I feel that is a very inconsequential thing as the distro itself is
still constantly being updated with newer packages, exactly like Gentoo
and Debian are. With a 8 month “larger” one-time update that is needed,
which does differ from Gentoo and Debian, but does so for a good reason
(i.e. the benefits of this model far outweigh the downsides.)
> N.B: I have used Gentoo and Arch, for 4 years and 2 years respectively,
> so I feel adequately qualified to comment on this inaccuracy.
I’ve been a Gentoo developer for much longer than those years combined,
and I respectively disagree with you
thanks,
greg k-h
Tumbleweed plays well for me rolling.
But what is the plan in detail if the ground of Tumbleweed (openSUSE-11.4) is moving?
If the toolchain (gcc-4.6) is moving?
Or some filesystem structure is changing, like now in “Debian unstable” changing from “/var/run” to “/run”?
I don’t understand why Tumbleweed isn’t a “true” rolling distro.
Whole OpenSuSE is a set of packeges. Even kernel is a package.
Is there any single library that couldnt be upgraded via Tumbleweed repository?
What’s the problem with upgrading every single library and change distro to “11.5” on-the-fly when the time comes?
They can even modify some packages so they no longer display 11.4 or 11.5, just “Tumbleweed”.
Of course Tumbleweed should not use 11.4 repositories (OSS, contrib, update) anymore. Everything should be in Tumbleweed. Unfortunately as for now, it still uses them
So … yes. As for now its just 11.4 + Tumbleweed. But i hope it will change and there will be no need to upgrade from DVD etc anymore. More and more packages are coming to Tumbleweed.
In fact, you should use “zypper dup --from Tumbleweed” every time you update your system to change these new package “supplier” to Tumbleweed (until every single package will be in Tumbleweed, if it ever happens)
I think the consensus is that it IS a “true” rolling distro.
YES, there may be a very small number of apps whose updates need very very very careful consideration. REMEMBER, the openSUSE community are resource limited in terms of volunteers to do the job of maintaining Tumbleweed.
For example, as ulenrich alluded to, update gcc can be fraught with risk, and possibly require levels of effort to confirm stability that are outside of the scope of the resources available to verify the stability of a Tumbleweed gcc update. I think any gcc update would need to be considered carefully. One could always IMHO defer a gcc update until the NEXT stable openSUSE release increment (ie 12.1).
A small minor mute item here - there will be no 11.5. It has already been decided to skip an 11.5 and skip a 12.0 and go direct to 12.1. There is a logic for that, but I won’t repeat it here.
That would be ok an approach if there were massive resources available to move and maintain every OSS, Non-OSS, and Update as part of Tumbleweed. IMHO there are NOT such resources, and hence IMHO thats not a prudent way to go for the limited resources available to produce Tumbleweed. SuSE-GmbH/openSUSE is not a Microsoft. There are limits to what can be done economically and efficiently. Instead (also IMHO) it makes more sense to KEEP OSS, Non-OSS, and Update from the last stable openSUSE release, and ensure EVERY Tumbleweed update has a version number that is NEWER. That way the zypper/yast package management can easily pickup the Tumbleweed new version updates (for new features) and still pickup the 11.4 Updates (which have stability fixes) and keep the OSS/Non-OSS (for dependency resolution) without having tremendous duplication of effort.
By the appropriate Tumbleweed package version number assignement (and rpm spec file construction) keeping OSS, Non-OSS, and Update will work out well and be consistent with a rolling release.
To remove OSS, Non-OSS, and Update from Tumbleweed would impose a SIGNIFICANT load on the Tumbleweed project that IMHO it is not scoped to carry. I believe some prudent pragmatism and practicality is needed here.
And to re-iterate, the above are just my views and not any official view.
On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 12:36:03 +0000, sobrus wrote:
>
> Of course Tumbleweed should not use 11.4 repositories (OSS, contrib,
> update) anymore. Everything should be in Tumbleweed. Unfortunately as
> for now, it still uses them
No, see my other messages about why this is a good thing, and why
it will continue to be this way.
(hint, it saved everyone major problems when the KDE update broke that
would not have been easy to resolve otherwise.)
> So … yes. As for now its just 11.4 + Tumbleweed. But i hope it will
> change and there will be no need to upgrade from DVD etc anymore.
You don’t need a dvd to upgrade from 11.3 to 11.4 either, nor previous
releases. So this is already implemented
> More
> and more packages are coming to Tumbleweed. In fact, you should use
> “zypper dup --from Tumbleweed” every time you update your system to
> change these new package “supplier” to Tumbleweed (until every single
> package will be in Tumbleweed, if it ever happens)
No, you should just do a simple “zypper dup” to make sure things go
correctly (sometimes things can revert back to older versions from the
“main” 11.4 repo if things go wrong.)
thanks,
greg k-h