Computer Ethics and more?

English Soapbox
#1

I came across this text which anyone should read. Most people adhere to
it most times, but i wonder if these ethics should be extended also to
how you buy a computer.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/39047129/Computer-Ethics

Apple sticks out in the image they produce about themselfs which is a
mismatch to reality.
http://www.edge-online.com/news/apple-reveals-supplier-working-conditions
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204409004577158764211274708.html

Now to be fair, i think the regular pc manufactures are not better and i
don’t even want to know under what conditions some people have to
assemble a normal pc.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,596712,00.html

I think the consumer, us, should be informed and make informed decisions
if he can actually buy that shiny new computer if he knew under what
condition it was build.

Or do we really have a responsibility at all.
It surely does not end with computers and goes to everything we buy. You
t-shirt for example.

Apple stands out since it ‘liberates’ and builds devices ‘for the rest
of us’.

To be fair, its not ‘just’ about Apple. Its about any company and how we
as consumers care about ethics.
I am not a real friend of buying cheap for the sake of cheap. There
needs to be some conscious about how we regard how products are made.

If this topic is too touchy my apologize. I do think, however, that it
is an issue we all face since you can deny the problem but it still exist.

I am not even sure how my stuff gots produced and i wonder if you can
find out at all. It would be nice since with that knowledge it would
empower me or anyone to make informed buying decisions. And money talks.

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Rejoice they sing - They worship their own space - In a moment of love,
they will die for their grace - Don’t kill the whale

#2

I’m not sure this is the place to discuss the problem. It is mainly a political issue, rather than a computing issue.

People why purchase computers don’t have a lot of choice. They have to buy from what is available. If I decide that I am willing to pay twice as much for a computer, I will probably finish up buying one that was made in Asia in the same near-slave circumstance, but with a bigger profit margin for the corporation that markets it.

It should be a public policy issue. A government could tax purchases based on the working conditions at the factories where they were made. If done carefully, this could still count as free trade because the same rules apply to all manufacturers. However, such discussions of public policy don’t really belong in a computing forum (in my opinion).

#3

On 1/23/2012 12:16 PM, nrickert wrote:
>
> I’m not sure this is the place to discuss the problem. It is mainly a
> political issue, rather than a computing issue.
>
> People why purchase computers don’t have a lot of choice. They have to
> buy from what is available. If I decide that I am willing to pay twice
> as much for a computer, I will probably finish up buying one that was
> made in Asia in the same near-slave circumstance, but with a bigger
> profit margin for the corporation that markets it.
>
> It should be a public policy issue. A government could tax purchases
> based on the working conditions at the factories where they were made.
> If done carefully, this could still count as free trade because the same
> rules apply to all manufacturers. However, such discussions of public
> policy don’t really belong in a computing forum (in my opinion).
>
>

Well i thought off it as not political. But if everyone feels that way,
close the topic.

Thank You

–
Windows, supports nearly all software, hardware, and viruses.

Rejoice they sing - They worship their own space - In a moment of love,
they will die for their grace - Don’t kill the whale

#4

On 2012-01-23 21:16, nrickert wrote:
> However, such discussions of public
> policy don’t really belong in a computing forum (in my opinion).

But soapbox is not a computing forum.

–
Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.
(from 11.4 x86_64 “Celadon” at Telcontar)

#5

I can’t see any explicit political statements here; or even implicit. Did I miss something?

#6

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 20:16:02 GMT, nrickert
<nrickert@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org> wrote:

>
>I’m not sure this is the place to discuss the problem. It is mainly a
>political issue, rather than a computing issue.
>
>People why purchase computers don’t have a lot of choice. They have to
>buy from what is available. If I decide that I am willing to pay twice
>as much for a computer, I will probably finish up buying one that was
>made in Asia in the same near-slave circumstance, but with a bigger
>profit margin for the corporation that markets it.
>
>It should be a public policy issue. A government could tax purchases
>based on the working conditions at the factories where they were made.
>If done carefully, this could still count as free trade because the same
>rules apply to all manufacturers. However, such discussions of public
>policy don’t really belong in a computing forum (in my opinion).

Each to their own, i think the topic is fair, here in soapbox. Your
public policy idea is political though.

?-)

#7

After being a tech for an ISP for a while, I have to agree with one of my co-workers in that users should be licensed, just like a person is for a car. Yes, I agree that we should be more informed, but that would only benefit us the geeks. I deal with users who don’t know where the “start” button is. They don’t know what a left click is. They think Office 2007 is the version of Windows they use. They think their email address is their email client. So for most users, they would not even know the information existed or what it meant.

I think I’ll go back to banging my head on the keyboard or whatever other thing I can bang my head into.

#8

my point of view is:

it is a mixture between politics and normal human, ethic behavior.

the situation is, as described a lot of times already, that all computer manufacturers have suppliers in China. In China we have this “communist” government which works like we had it in europe and america 200 years ago, as we had our newly invented steam engines running and children had to mine for coal. So the computer manufacturers produce high-tech in circumstances which are so ****ed old-fashioned… don´t know how this fits together but I am sure that the managers of all these computer companies have an adequate answer for that. :wink:

There we are in the part which contains the politics. Because these circumstances are created by China as a country and their leaders. Because all this is possible only, with the support of the political leaders of a country and of a society.

The part of human and ethic behavior is, that nobody forces the computer companies to do that. I as the consumer and I am sure the big majority of consumers, do not demonstrate in front of Apple shops, BestBuy, Frys and Media Markt, that we want to have computers which are produced under in-human circumstances. So the only ones who want to do that, are the guys in the management of the computer companies. They of course say that the shareholders want to have the max. outcome. Of course, but I am sure that there is just a tiny minority of the shareholders who actually want to have the products of the company being produced in a pre WW1 environment.
So this is the ethics part. Because it is just a matter of willingness. Willingness of the management.

So what can the consumer do? Not buying the stuff doesn´t matter, because every computer manufacturer produces in China. The only thing, the customer can do, is writing and reading. Blogs, News… everything which destroys the “clean and hightech” images of these companies.
And in this situation it is not helpful to complain about Apple and then to say: “yeah but all the others do the same” - it does not mean that Apple needs to do the same when a competitor does something wrong.

And the other ethics, with viruses and so on… This is also a big business. 1. for the antivirus companies and 2. for the ones who crack the bank accounts.
And there it is the responsibility of a OS-producer that he makes sure that the OS is safe. It is also the responsibility of banks, mail service providers, other companies and of course the user that everything is safe. It is the same as in real life: if you let your door open, you invite the thief.
So, the computer ethics is not needed. The “normal-real-life ethics” also apply in this matter.

#9

You can spot a techie a mile off, just look for the scarring.

#10

On 2/23/2012 12:16 AM, Jonathan R wrote:
>
> After being a tech for an ISP for a while, I have to agree with one of
> my co-workers in that users should be licensed, just like a person is
> for a car. Yes, I agree that we should be more informed, but that would
> only benefit us the geeks. I deal with users who don’t know where the
> “start” button is. They don’t know what a left click is. They think
> Office 2007 is the version of Windows they use. They think their email
> address is their email client. So for most users, they would not even
> know the information existed or what it meant.
>
> I think I’ll go back to banging my head on the keyboard or whatever
> other thing I can bang my head into.
>
>

It just reminds me off the tv show ‘the it growd’. So its like real life
then. :slight_smile:

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#11

I love that show! :slight_smile: :nerd:

#12

On 2/23/2012 2:16 AM, steffen13 wrote:
>

> So what can the consumer do? Not buying the stuff doesn´t matter,
> because every computer manufacturer produces in China. The only thing,
> the customer can do, is writing and reading. Blogs, News… everything
> which destroys the “clean and hightech” images of these companies.
> And in this situation it is not helpful to complain about Apple and
> then to say: “yeah but all the others do the same” - it does not mean
> that Apple needs to do the same when a competitor does something wrong.
>

Mm… not very satisfying.

I personally think that yes of course China’s policy is different and
has not the same regulation as most western countries.
But, at the same time western companies like to outsource production to
countries where they have no problems to assemble products in knowing
that it is not ethical justifiable to produce.
Companies like to hide behind statements like ‘we don’t know what
happens there because we just out contract the work’. And then of course
the original contractor outsources the work to another company that even
care less about working conditions.

My point is, it is not just the responsibility of countries, or
enterprises. It is also the consumer.
As long as the consumer happily buys whatever gets sold without asking
how it was made, nothing will change ever.

Besides, you and me are shareholders. You can check you 401K if you like
and see where your money is spread.
I read a long time ago a book about slaves. This is still happening in
our world and is not a remote thing of the past. Most people may not be
aware of it, but that does not make it not happening.

For enterprises like Apple it is a PR issue. They usually not care about
it if it doesn’t get attention in the public. What makes Apple case
unique is the fact that Apple has a huge profit margin and can afford to
press companies to ensure better working conditions.

Yes, a lot of things today are getting made in China. It is not per se a
bad thing i think, but i think responsibility lays on anyone in the chain.

But to be fair, it is ‘not’ just Apple. It the whole spectrum of
enterprises producing all kinds of things.
(on the other hand, its ridiculous to say that S.Jobs made the world a
better place (which only applies to the people that can afford his
lifestyle) but did not care much about the people that build the
lifestyle)).

An aware customer is an educated customer. Civility starts with making
smart choices and they don’t revolve around just market value.

There is though one thing people today can do. Even though i don’t like
Facebook, but it is a useful tool to generate awareness. I think there
are ways that could make a difference but i admit that it is not easy.
In the end people can choose not to buy that next product. (well we know
better)

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#13

I think the problem is similar to Fair trade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade
For example You can buy coffee twice as expensive as the normal one labelled with the fair trade logo (or it used to be possible) and I think a lot of people would happily do that if they actually new it was helping. The problem is that as a consumer You’ve got no way of controlling where the additional money goes to or if it actually makes the work conditions any better. So it can be just another “tax” and in reality it might do nothing to make the work conditions better but it will be a justification to make the product more expensive.

Best regards,
Greg

#14

Before we retired I owned a small company in the US where I designed and we built custom industrial computers and rack mounted servers for clients all over the world. One day a purchasing agent from a large US based company contacted me with a request for a rather specialized industrial computer and specified that it was to be built entirely with components made in the US. They claimed to be willing to pay a premium price to know that they weren’t supporting “sweatshops where the workers (were) being taken advantage of”.

I put a considerable amount of time and effort into trying to comply with his wishes and ended up confirming my suspicion that it simply could not be done… nor could it even be done primarily with components from countries with strong labor laws. In fact the only component I could even buy for his design that did not come from a third world country or the Far East was a chassis that cost almost three times as much as a superior one made in Taiwan. There was a motherboard (actually a single board computer in this instance) that claimed to be “Made in the USA” but a quick check revealed that every single component soldered on that board was made in the Far East.

My Point: We who use PCs are powerless to use our buying practices to discourage the use of underpaid labor working in unsafe conditions etc. unless we are willing to forego buying (and therefore using) computers altogether… not really an option. There may eventually be a solution to this ethical dilemma but it will have to come from the exercise of our political influence not from our buying decisions.

Postscript: That customer ended up being a steady buyer of a custom designed Industrial PC made entirely with components made in the Far East… even the case. I later learned that our computers were being integrated into an industrial machine featuring a shiny sticker that read “Assembled in the USA”.

#15

On 2/27/2012 12:26 AM, glistwan wrote:
>
> I think the problem is similar to Fair trade.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade
> For example You can buy coffee twice as expensive as the normal one
> labelled with the fair trade logo (or it used to be possible) and I
> think a lot of people would happily do that if they actually new it was
> helping. The problem is that as a consumer You’ve got no way of
> controlling where the additional money goes to or if it actually makes
> the work conditions any better. So it can be just another “tax” and in
> reality it might do nothing to make the work conditions better but it
> will be a justification to make the product more expensive.
>
> Best regards,
> Greg
>
>

Absolutely true. We can not see it.
As an example for myself. I like to buy sometimes trader joe’s coffee
and some have the labels. No way i will know if its really fair or not.
But i think we, as consumers, need to ask questions at the time you buy
something. If your retailstore does not know, then its time they should
know.
I love to write letters to retailstores. Even though i think they
sometimes go in the trashbin but if they do get a lot of these mails it
will have a reaction.
The sad part is that for the most part people do not ask questions. It
means to me that i have to be pro-active in the way i do business with
any seller i encounter.

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#16

On 2/27/2012 6:06 AM, caprus wrote:
> My Point: We who use PCs are powerless to use our buying practices to
> discourage the use of underpaid labor working in unsafe conditions etc.
> unless we are willing to forego buying (and therefore using) computers
> altogether… not really an option. There may be a solution to this
> ethical dillemna but it would have to come from the exercise of our
> political influence not from our buying decisions.
>
> Postscript: That customer ended up being a steady buyer of a custom
> designed Industrial PC made entirely with components made in the Far
> East… even the case. I later learned that our computers were being
> integrated into an industrial machine featuring a shiny sticker that
> read “Assembled in the USA”.
>
>

I don’t want to deny what you are writing. But it reminded me that in
the beginning all the computers were made in the US.
Well, that were the early days for sure and components and finished
computers were much more expensive in those days.
I think no one needs to go to the road of producing a computer in the US
but it would help if the oversight were better and would ensure at least
our understanding of threading people equally.
Most of the electronics i have is made in China and i wonder how many of
these people that build it are good paid. Last time i read an article
and it said that most of these factory workers work at least 12 hours a
day 6 days a week. Living conditions are not great either.

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