Commentary on NNTP issues (Was [Re: Adios Windows...])

kastorff wrote:

>
> -Thread moving to Applications-
>
> Thread temporarily closed.
>
>

If you’re going to move the bloody thread, then move it. Don’t leave the
beginning of the thread so we get started replying to it and then find you
moving it somewhere else we may not even be subscribed to. This is getting
REALLY annoying.

bob@rsmits.ca (Robert Smits, Ladysmith BC)

“I’m not one of those who think Bill Gates is the devil. I simply suspect
that if Microsoft ever met up with the devil, it wouldn’t need an
interpreter.” - Nicholas Petreley

Staff moderation decisions are not up for public debate or commentary. Feel free to dialog with staff privately about your concerns.

As for NNTP issues, this is a web based forum providing NNTP access as a courtesy. We are not a newsgroups provider. We run the forums from a web interface, with web based tools. There are serious limitations with our current software tools in trying to integrate protocols designed for different ways of handing topics, replies, and organization. This puts a burden on both NNTP and HTTP users, and requires cooperation from members using either to make this work for the benefit of the community. We’re constantly pursuing both administrative and software solutions that improve the NNTP/HTTP content interaction, but that takes time and resources. We are hosted by Novell, but other than that, we’re on our own, and subject to the constraints imposed by volunteer time and resources.

If you’re unwilling to cooperate with us on this endeavor, or can’t wait for better solutions to present themselves, then please accept our best wishes in finding a community that better serves your needs.

Thread moved to Forums Comments/Suggestions

<posted & mailed>

Robert Smits wrote:

> kastorff wrote:
>
>>
>> -Thread moving to Applications-
>>
>> Thread temporarily closed.
>>
>>
>
>
> If you’re going to move the bloody thread, then move it. Don’t leave the
> beginning of the thread so we get started replying to it and then find you
> moving it somewhere else we may not even be subscribed to. This is getting
> REALLY annoying.

Just to add a little more to what Kastorff has said, through NNTP there is
no way to move the thread from the old forum to the new one. The only thing
we could do is either delete the thread in the original location on NNTP
(which I doubt many people would like or agree to) or post things like
Kastorff stated about where it is moving to. Then if the NNTP user would
like to respond, all he/she would need to do is change the newsgroup from
the old one to the new one and it will stop causing broken threads. This
does also mean that the NNTP user will need to skim the thread itself to
see if it has been moved.

In order for things to work and the community to get better/stronger as a
whole, we need to start working together instead of all this infighting.
Just look through the NNTP vs Web threads and you will see what I mean. We
need to understand the limitations, deal with them and if people are able
to help correct them then contact people and let them know.

This is no longer the Novell way or the Suseforums.net way or the Suse Linux
Support way, this is our way and we need to start understanding that and
working towards a common goal. Get the lines of communication flowing
instead of trying to put up roadblocks. Just my 2 cents.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:45:35 +0000, 69_rs_ss wrote:

>> If you’re going to move the bloody thread, then move it. Don’t leave
>> the beginning of the thread so we get started replying to it and then
>> find you moving it somewhere else we may not even be subscribed to.
>> This is getting REALLY annoying.
>
> Just to add a little more to what Kastorff has said, through NNTP there
> is no way to move the thread from the old forum to the new one. The only
> thing we could do is either delete the thread in the original location
> on NNTP (which I doubt many people would like or agree to) or post
> things like Kastorff stated about where it is moving to. Then if the
> NNTP user would like to respond, all he/she would need to do is change
> the newsgroup from the old one to the new one and it will stop causing
> broken threads. This does also mean that the NNTP user will need to skim
> the thread itself to see if it has been moved.

One thing that would help from an NNTP standpoint is a mapping of the web
forum group names to the NNTP group names. I know for me, if I see a
“moved” indication, I’d be happy to change my headers to point to the
correct group, but

> In order for things to work and the community to get better/stronger as
> a whole, we need to start working together instead of all this
> infighting. Just look through the NNTP vs Web threads and you will see
> what I mean. We need to understand the limitations, deal with them and
> if people are able to help correct them then contact people and let them
> know.
>
> This is no longer the Novell way or the Suseforums.net way or the Suse
> Linux Support way, this is our way and we need to start understanding
> that and working towards a common goal. Get the lines of communication
> flowing instead of trying to put up roadblocks. Just my 2 cents.

Well stated, and agree 100%. I’d agree more, but that’s mathematically
impossible.

Jim

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:15:53 GMT
Jim Henderson <Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:

<snip>
> One thing that would help from an NNTP standpoint is a mapping of the
> web forum group names to the NNTP group names. I know for me, if I
> see a “moved” indication, I’d be happy to change my headers to point
> to the correct group, but
<snip>

Hi
For example something like;

-Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
[opensuse.org.feedback.forums.comments-suggestions]

–
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
SLED 10 SP2 i586 Kernel 2.6.16.60-0.23-default
up 1:05, 1 user, load average: 0.05, 0.13, 0.18
GPU GeForce Go 6600 TE/6200 TE Version: 173.14.09

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:40:39 +0000, Malcolm wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:15:53 GMT
> Jim Henderson <Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> One thing that would help from an NNTP standpoint is a mapping of the
>> web forum group names to the NNTP group names. I know for me, if I see
>> a “moved” indication, I’d be happy to change my headers to point to the
>> correct group, but
> <snip>
>
> Hi
> For example something like;
>
> -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
> [opensuse.org.feedback.forums.comments-suggestions]

I’d be happy even with the NNTP description field showing the web forum
names - pan will show that, so that would be sufficient for me.

But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the beginning,
or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I would see that
meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in” in the web forum
world while still using NNTP.

Jim

I’d personally be happy to do that. Unfortunately the whole process of moving a thread that’s “NNTP friendly” is such a time consuming process (can take up to 10 minutes per thread elapsed time to ensure the change post hits the NNTP gateway), I’ve been reluctant to internally propose such a mechanism become policy for all staff. Each staff member moves posts/threads in his own fashion.

I’ve started using boilerplate text for my moves, so it’s a small thing for me to change the text to include the NNTP forum name.

I’ll have to research that a bit, but it sounds very doable. Kim’s the only one of us with any experience with the NNTP gateway prior to the merge, so he’s our resident expert. Kim’s on vacation this week, so if I can’t figure it out, we’ll have to wait on his return to get the definitive response.

But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the beginning, or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I would see that meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in” in the web forum
world while still using NNTP.

As far as I know, we don’t have tools available to do this ATM. It’s easy enough to change the subject line on the web side, but I don’t believe we have any mechanism available to staff to force that change on the NNTP side. The process I’m using ATM is already very time consuming, so this might be one of those that even if it’s doable, it can’t be done completely from the web side, and might simply be unmanageable from a time standpoint. We’re trying to balance volunteer willingness with process and tools, and there’s a line somewhere where the fix becomes worse than the problem. What used to be a 10 second (elapsed time) process has already become a possible 10 minute (elapsed time) process. When Kim returns, we’ll certainly explore what options we have. Hopefully, my ignorance with regards to this possibility will be replaced by some reasonable solution when Kim has a chance to weigh in.

Jim Henderson wrote:

> But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the beginning,
> or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I would see that
> meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in” in the web forum
> world while still using NNTP.
>
> Jim
Have you been seen the threads I have moved lately? I was curious if this is
what you meant in the other thread about adding Moved or Closed to the
subject.

kastorff wrote:

>
> Jim Henderson;1840522 Wrote:
>> But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the beginning,
>> or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I would see that
>> meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in” in the web forum
>> world while still using NNTP.
>
> As far as I know, we don’t have tools available to do this ATM. It’s
> easy enough to change the subject line on the web side, but I don’t
> believe we have any mechanism available to staff to force that change
> on the NNTP side. The process I’m using ATM is already very time
> consuming, so this might be one of those that even if it’s doable, it
> can’t be done completely from the web side, and might simply be
> unmanageable from a time standpoint. We’re trying to balance volunteer
> willingness with process and tools, and there’s a line somewhere where
> the fix becomes worse than the problem. What used to be a 10 second
> (elapsed time) process has already become a possible 10 minute (elapsed
> time) process. When Kim returns, we’ll certainly explore what options we
> have. Hopefully, my ignorance with regards to this possibility will be
> replaced by some reasonable solution when Kim has a change to weigh in.
>
>
I think I might have gotten it figured out but I am still testing things to
see if things work correctly.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:41:21 GMT
Jim Henderson <Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:40:39 +0000, Malcolm wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:15:53 GMT
> > Jim Henderson <Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >> One thing that would help from an NNTP standpoint is a mapping of
> >> the web forum group names to the NNTP group names. I know for me,
> >> if I see a “moved” indication, I’d be happy to change my headers
> >> to point to the correct group, but
> > <snip>
> >
> > Hi
> > For example something like;
> >
> > -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
> > [opensuse.org.feedback.forums.comments-suggestions]
>
> I’d be happy even with the NNTP description field showing the web
> forum names - pan will show that, so that would be sufficient for me.
>
> But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the
> beginning, or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I
> would see that meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in”
> in the web forum world while still using NNTP.
>
> Jim
Hi
Do you mean adding a X header when it gets transferred to the NNTP
Gateway?

e.g.: X-Forum-Name: Comments/Suggestions.

–
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
SLED 10 SP2 i586 Kernel 2.6.16.60-0.23-default
up 6:05, 1 user, load average: 0.05, 0.12, 0.33
GPU GeForce Go 6600 TE/6200 TE Version: 173.14.09

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:27:47 GMT
69_rs_ss <69_rs_ss@opensuse-forums.org> wrote:

> kastorff wrote:
>
> >
> > Jim Henderson;1840522 Wrote:
> >> But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the
> >> beginning, or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed,
> >> I would see that meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit
> >> in” in the web forum world while still using NNTP.
> >
> > As far as I know, we don’t have tools available to do this ATM. It’s
> > easy enough to change the subject line on the web side, but I don’t
> > believe we have any mechanism available to staff to force that
> > change on the NNTP side. The process I’m using ATM is already very
> > time consuming, so this might be one of those that even if it’s
> > doable, it can’t be done completely from the web side, and might
> > simply be unmanageable from a time standpoint. We’re trying to
> > balance volunteer willingness with process and tools, and there’s a
> > line somewhere where the fix becomes worse than the problem. What
> > used to be a 10 second (elapsed time) process has already become a
> > possible 10 minute (elapsed time) process. When Kim returns, we’ll
> > certainly explore what options we have. Hopefully, my ignorance
> > with regards to this possibility will be replaced by some
> > reasonable solution when Kim has a change to weigh in.
> >
> >
> I think I might have gotten it figured out but I am still testing
> things to see if things work correctly.

BTW, how are you finding the newsreader?

–
Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
SLED 10 SP2 i586 Kernel 2.6.16.60-0.23-default
up 6:07, 1 user, load average: 0.01, 0.08, 0.28
GPU GeForce Go 6600 TE/6200 TE Version: 173.14.09

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:38:25 +0000, Malcolm wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:41:21 GMT
> Jim Henderson <Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:40:39 +0000, Malcolm wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:15:53 GMT
>> > Jim Henderson <Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >> One thing that would help from an NNTP standpoint is a mapping of
>> >> the web forum group names to the NNTP group names. I know for me,
>> >> if I see a “moved” indication, I’d be happy to change my headers to
>> >> point to the correct group, but
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > Hi
>> > For example something like;
>> >
>> > -Thread moving to Forums Comments/Suggestions-
>> > [opensuse.org.feedback.forums.comments-suggestions]
>>
>> I’d be happy even with the NNTP description field showing the web forum
>> names - pan will show that, so that would be sufficient for me.
>>
>> But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the beginning,
>> or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I would see that
>> meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in” in the web forum
>> world while still using NNTP.
>>
>> Jim
> Hi
> Do you mean adding a X header when it gets transferred to the NNTP
> Gateway?
>
> e.g.: X-Forum-Name: Comments/Suggestions.

No, in NNTP parlance, when you get a group list, there is a description
field as well. I know Typhoon supports this, but it’s not widely used
here or on the Novell pages.

Jim

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:21:30 +0000, 69_rs_ss wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>
>> But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the beginning,
>> or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I would see that
>> meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in” in the web forum
>> world while still using NNTP.
>>
>> Jim
> Have you been seen the threads I have moved lately? I was curious if
> this is what you meant in the other thread about adding Moved or Closed
> to the subject.

Yeah, I have - that is what I had in mind - thanks for trying it out.

Jim

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:56:04 +0000, kastorff wrote:

> Jim Henderson;1840522 Wrote:
>> I’d be happy even with the NNTP description field showing the web forum
>> names - pan will show that, so that would be sufficient for me.
>
> I’ll have to research that a bit, but it sounds very doable. Kim’s the
> only one of us with any experience with the NNTP gateway prior to the
> merge, so he’s our resident expert. Kim’s on vacation this week, so if I
> can’t figure it out, we’ll have to wait on his return to get the
> definitive response.

That’s good - I knew Kim was on vacation this week, just was throwing the
idea out there for consideration.

>> But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the beginning,
>> or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I would see that
>> meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in” in the web forum
>> world while still using NNTP.
>
> As far as I know, we don’t have tools available to do this ATM. It’s
> easy enough to change the subject line on the web side, but I don’t
> believe we have any mechanism available to staff to force that change on
> the NNTP side. The process I’m using ATM is already very time consuming,
> so this might be one of those that even if it’s doable, it can’t be done
> completely from the web side, and might simply be unmanageable from a
> time standpoint. We’re trying to balance volunteer willingness with
> process and tools, and there’s a line somewhere where the fix becomes
> worse than the problem. What used to be a 10 second (elapsed time)
> process has already become a possible 10 minute (elapsed time) process.
> When Kim returns, we’ll certainly explore what options we have.
> Hopefully, my ignorance with regards to this possibility will be
> replaced by some reasonable solution when Kim has a change to weigh in.

Well, what I was thinking of would be more like taking the mapping
information out of the vBulletin database’s nntp gateway table and using
that to build a static list. Not a huge fan of static lists (because
they have to be maintained), but it’d be better than nothing. I don’t
think the nntp gateway interface in vBulletin lists the group name and
the forum name in its table, but I can check that out on a system later
today or tomorrow. That might be the easiest way to build the list if
both are included. Otherwise, it’s a database query to the backend
database.

But yeah, I understand about the process having become more complex - I
appreciate you taking the time to do that, too - I know how much of a
pain it is to have a complicated process. Hopefully things will ease up
as things get better integrated.

Jim

Jim, when I looked for a description field in the NNTP gateway configuration, I couldn’t find it. Is this something would have to be configured at the NNTP server itself?

Like this?

Forums to Groups mapping

Announcements
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Tech News
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64-bit
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Network/Internet
opensuse.org.help.network-internet

Wireless
opensuse.org.help.network-internet.wireless

Pre-Release/Beta
opensuse.org.help.prerelease-beta

Programming/Scripting
opensuse.org.help.programming-scripting

openSUSE Build Service (OBS)
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Looking For Something?
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How To/FAQ
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General
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Screenshots
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Soapbox
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Forums Comments/Suggestions
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Forums Support/Information
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On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:56:04 +0000, kastorff wrote:

> Jim Henderson;1840955 Wrote:
>> No, in NNTP parlance, when you get a group list, there is a description
>> field as well. I know Typhoon supports this, but it’s not widely used
>> here or on the Novell pages.
>>
>> Jim
>
> Jim, when I looked for a description field in the NNTP gateway
> configuration, I couldn’t find it. Is this something would have to be
> configured at the NNTP server itself?

Yes, that is an NNTP server configuration place, sorry that I wasn’t
clear about that, Keith.

I’d have to look myself at how that’s set up in Typhoon, because even
with the groups I manage on Novell’s server, I don’t use the field.

Jim

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:56:04 +0000, kastorff wrote:

> Like this? > Forums to Groups mapping

Yeah, that’s kinda what I had in mind.

Jim

>> I’d be happy even with the NNTP description field showing the web forum
>> names - pan will show that, so that would be sufficient for me.
>
> I’ll have to research that a bit, but it sounds very doable.

I don’t understand his question, nor your answer.
Aren’t the NNTP group names ‘the same’ as the Web Forum names ?

Didn’t someone allready post an example of Forum names, with the NNTP group
names beside them, to show how difficult it was to miss the link?

Or are you talking about something completely different? In that case, what
am I missing?

>> But combined with a subject change of “Thread Moved:” at the beginning,

>> or “Thread Closed:” for threads that have been closed, I would see that
>> meeting my needs as an NNTP user looking to “fit in” in the web forum
>> world while still using NNTP.
>
> As far as I know, we don’t have tools available to do this ATM. It’s
> easy enough to change the subject line on the web side, but I don’t
> believe we have any mechanism available to staff to force that change
> on the NNTP side.

Still hoping I didn’t miss some important point: we know where the thread is
beeing moved to. The message announcing it shows that.

What would be very usefull, in order to find the original root of a thread,
would be to indicate where it was moved from.

Maybe add it to the subject:
Subject: I’m allergic to KDE 4! (moved here from … )

Or maybe create a first - fake - post in the destination group. Just use the
original Subject line, but let the body say:

This thread was moved here from (old forum) by (moderator) on (date).

No ?

–
The sand remembers once there was beach and sunshine
but chip is warm too
– haiku from Effector Online, Volume 1, Number 6