Classical concerts

English Open Chat
21

Jim Henderson wrote:

>> Water soluble glue… oh my.
>
> I wonder what the differences are in terms of tonal quality. The guy who
> will fix my instrument when we’ve got the cash set aside probably could
> tell me - it may be just because if they need to take it apart for
> repairs, it’s easier to do and won’t damage the wood.

Jim, the wife and kids - all performing musicians - tell me that I can’t
even play a radio in tune but the science of stringed instruments has always
fascinated me as I do a lot of custom woodwork.

If you look at the physical characteristics of hide glue, which is the most
commonly used on old instruments you will find it to have unique properties
regarding hardness and flexibility compared to the modern synthetics. Given
the importance of the vibrations of the belly and back of a violin, changing
the elastic properties of the edge joint would have a dramatic effect on the
quality of the sound so a violin built to perform with hide glue could be
lost. Heck, even the varnish used to finish the instrument is crucial to
tone! There are lots of modern glues which have solvents for release (some
including water) but none that match the performance of the original glues
used by the original makers.

Of course, this is mostly academic. My wife has a 1694 violin attributed to
a Guanarae (sp?) student and she won’t even let me pick it up! Says anyone
who refers to her pride and joy as a fiddle shouldn’t even be in the same
room! She sends it to a particular New York shop for any needed work -
won’t trust the local shops.

–
Will Honea

22

On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 22:00:23 +0000, DenverD wrote:

> heh!
>
> you have to have a sense of humor…and, not take Ludwig’s line/vision
> as the only one worth hearing…

Absolutely, and I absolutely love that rendition. Just sometimes I’d
like to be able to hear it without “and, uh, Bob Dennis”. :wink:

> pure fun.

Very much so. Though I think I prefer the Concerto for Horn and
Hardart. :wink:

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

23

On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 19:50:14 +0000, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Two samples, on a concert:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgxRUMatG4
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpOb49T6Ldo

Slightly different timbre, but yes, very similar. The sound does evoke
memories of listening to the Osipov Russian Folk Orchestra in Moscow on
that tour, especiially the first video at about 1:30, that strumming is
very similar to the way the balalaikas sounded in concert.

The second video opening sounds even more like what I remember and the
sound is almost identical.

> (a member of that group also contributes(ed) to opensuse :slight_smile: )

That’s cool. :slight_smile:

> This is a somewhat similar instrument (laudón), much more “grave”, lower
> tone, alone:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&hl=es&v=uTK7ZyFiHNY

Yes, that one also has a slightly more metallic sound to my ears.

> The commentary is interesting, but the English text must be an automated
> translation, it is terrible.
>
> I haven’t been able to find a similar one for the “bandurria”.
>
>
> manufacturing:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFiJDeBIH14&feature=related
>
> Mmm… they use screws? I have my doubts.

Maybe in modern construction, probably less likely in traditional
construction.

> I don’t really have what is needed to play an instrument relatively
> well. I could (past tense) play the piano a bit, and the guitar, but I’m
> not good enough even for a family reunion :slight_smile:

The problem I’d have getting back into it now is impatience - going from
last playing things like the Lalo “Symphony Espagnole” to having to do
scales to get my ears working again (and for my fingers to remember what
to do - and my right arm for that matter) would take more patience than I
might want to commit to. On the other hand, getting back to playing
pieces like that (I always wanted to learn the Mendelssohn violin
concerto, and I have the sheet music for it and had started teaching
myself) would be fun, no doubt. If I had the patience.

> Now that I think… that piano practice must have been good for my
> typing :wink:

Indeed that could be the case - though for me I never played piano
(learned one or two songs, but on a piano keyboard my left hand gets
stupid); my brother was the keyboardist in the family - also played oboe
for many years, and he actually got a minor in music performance when he
went to school.

> There must be a tonal difference, but the disassembling thing is an
> important point, too. And tradition, too. I know there are big
> difference (sound and price) between hand made instruments, and
> industrial equivalents. Some of these are very good, certainly good
> enough for most of us. But not for concerts.

Oh yes, very much a difference. I believe my instrument was hand-made,
but for all those who want to start out, it’s less expensive to either
rent or buy a mass-produced instrument.

But I know my violin (which is a copy of a Guarneri, as I recall) sounds
nowhere near as good as an authentic Stradivarius (which I’ve been
fortunate enough to hear in a live performance on one occasion). Of
course, the instrument itself isn’t sufficient, it has to be played by a
master as well. :slight_smile:

Jim

Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

24

On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 22:17:40 +0000, Will Honea wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>
>>> Water soluble glue… oh my.
>>
>> I wonder what the differences are in terms of tonal quality. The guy
>> who will fix my instrument when we’ve got the cash set aside probably
>> could tell me - it may be just because if they need to take it apart
>> for repairs, it’s easier to do and won’t damage the wood.
>
> Jim, the wife and kids - all performing musicians - tell me that I can’t
> even play a radio in tune but the science of stringed instruments has
> always fascinated me as I do a lot of custom woodwork.

My dad made the same observation - in fact, my violin has one unique
characteristic: the chinrest is made from lilac wood - my dad crafted it
from the wood from a tree in our back yard. It’s got a lavender stripe
through it (natural from the wood).

> If you look at the physical characteristics of hide glue, which is the
> most commonly used on old instruments you will find it to have unique
> properties regarding hardness and flexibility compared to the modern
> synthetics. Given the importance of the vibrations of the belly and
> back of a violin, changing the elastic properties of the edge joint
> would have a dramatic effect on the quality of the sound so a violin
> built to perform with hide glue could be lost. Heck, even the varnish
> used to finish the instrument is crucial to tone! There are lots of
> modern glues which have solvents for release (some including water) but
> none that match the performance of the original glues used by the
> original makers.
>
> Of course, this is mostly academic. My wife has a 1694 violin
> attributed to a Guanarae (sp?) student and she won’t even let me pick it
> up! Says anyone who refers to her pride and joy as a fiddle shouldn’t
> even be in the same room! She sends it to a particular New York shop
> for any needed work - won’t trust the local shops.

That’s cool - has her instrument been authenticated?

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

25

Will Honea wrote:
> My wife has a 1694 violin attributed to a Guanarae (sp?) student

i wish i had a prize like that in the house (a wife with such tools,
and talent)…you are a lucky man.

–
DenverD
When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]

26

Jim Henderson wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 22:17:40 +0000, Will Honea wrote:
>
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>
>>>> Water soluble glue… oh my.
>>>
>>> I wonder what the differences are in terms of tonal quality. The guy
>>> who will fix my instrument when we’ve got the cash set aside probably
>>> could tell me - it may be just because if they need to take it apart
>>> for repairs, it’s easier to do and won’t damage the wood.
>>
>> Jim, the wife and kids - all performing musicians - tell me that I can’t
>> even play a radio in tune but the science of stringed instruments has
>> always fascinated me as I do a lot of custom woodwork.
>
> My dad made the same observation - in fact, my violin has one unique
> characteristic: the chinrest is made from lilac wood - my dad crafted it
> from the wood from a tree in our back yard. It’s got a lavender stripe
> through it (natural from the wood).
>
>> If you look at the physical characteristics of hide glue, which is the
>> most commonly used on old instruments you will find it to have unique
>> properties regarding hardness and flexibility compared to the modern
>> synthetics. Given the importance of the vibrations of the belly and
>> back of a violin, changing the elastic properties of the edge joint
>> would have a dramatic effect on the quality of the sound so a violin
>> built to perform with hide glue could be lost. Heck, even the varnish
>> used to finish the instrument is crucial to tone! There are lots of
>> modern glues which have solvents for release (some including water) but
>> none that match the performance of the original glues used by the
>> original makers.
>>
>> Of course, this is mostly academic. My wife has a 1694 violin
>> attributed to a Guanarae (sp?) student and she won’t even let me pick it
>> up! Says anyone who refers to her pride and joy as a fiddle shouldn’t
>> even be in the same room! She sends it to a particular New York shop
>> for any needed work - won’t trust the local shops.
>
> That’s cool - has her instrument been authenticated?

When we bought the instrument we sent it to a well-know dealer in Chicago
(Bien-Fusch?) for appraisal. They confirmed the period but thought that a
few details on the scroll pointed to a fairly well-known student.

The whole deal makes an interesting story. When we married in 1966, she was
playing with the Colorado Springs and Denver Symphonies. I was in Del Rio,
Texas at the time - not exactly the cultural center of the universe - and
she decided she wanted to take lessons just to keep up. The only decent
teacher (to her way of thinking) was in San Angelo, some 180 miles to the
North. After a few sessions, the teacher brought up a complaint Ann had
heard for some time: her French violin was too soft for symphony work and
better suited to chamber performances. This teacher thought she might know
where we could get a better (stronger) violin. The local school
superintendent had a son who was referred to as a “prodigy” in the mid-1940s
but had committed suicide in 1948. The teacher contacted the family and
found that they still had his violin so we went to look - love at first
sight. They told us we could have the thing for what they paid - in 1940!
Still, $1000 was a big bite for a brand-new 1st Lt. so we sent it off for
appraisal, all well packed and insured. The first communication from the
appraiser was an offer to buy it for 6x what we were paying! We declined
the offer and bought the violin but we still get inquiries about once a year
from the company about selling it to them. Last appraisal we got on it
valued it at more than our house - about the only really good investment we
ever made.

She hasn’t played seriously in some years after problems with carpal tunnel
in her hands but the the only way you’ll get that violin from her is the
same way you’ll get my guns - pried from her cold, dead hands.

–
Will Honea

27

On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 19:56:32 +0000, Will Honea wrote:

…]

> She hasn’t played seriously in some years after problems with carpal
> tunnel in her hands but the the only way you’ll get that violin from her
> is the same way you’ll get my guns - pried from her cold, dead hands.

That’s a great story, Will - thanks for sharing it. :slight_smile:

My instrument has a much less interesting story - we bought it at a
“Violin and Tobacco Shop” in Dinkytown (a part of Minneapolis near the
University of Minnesota campus). My teacher at the time pointed us at
it, saying that if we didn’t buy it, he was going to.

All this talk about violins is making me want to take mine up again
now. :slight_smile:

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

28

Jim Henderson wrote:

> All this talk about violins is making me want to take mine up again
> now. :slight_smile:

The wife still gets hers out when the hands are up to it but can only
practice while I take the dog for a walk - she wants to howl in harmony
whenever Ann plays :wink:

–
Will Honea

29

On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:55:16 +0000, Will Honea wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>
>> All this talk about violins is making me want to take mine up again
>> now. :slight_smile:
>
> The wife still gets hers out when the hands are up to it but can only
> practice while I take the dog for a walk - she wants to howl in harmony
> whenever Ann plays :wink:

LOL, I know my cats used to go running when I started to play. I got
used to the sound with the mute on, and I think part of the problem with
the soundpost makes it harder to listen to with the mute off currently.

That plus the ringing of the open E string (which I’m told is definitely
caused by the glob of varnish that’s connecting the sound post to the
front - I really wish I knew who did the work that caused that…)

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

30

Jim Henderson wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:55:16 +0000, Will Honea wrote:
>
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>
>>> All this talk about violins is making me want to take mine up again
>>> now. :slight_smile:
>>
>> The wife still gets hers out when the hands are up to it but can only
>> practice while I take the dog for a walk - she wants to howl in harmony
>> whenever Ann plays :wink:
>
> LOL, I know my cats used to go running when I started to play. I got
> used to the sound with the mute on, and I think part of the problem with
> the soundpost makes it harder to listen to with the mute off currently.
>
> That plus the ringing of the open E string (which I’m told is definitely
> caused by the glob of varnish that’s connecting the sound post to the
> front - I really wish I knew who did the work that caused that…)

Ah, yes. The first crisis with the “new violin” came on the evening of the
first concert. She decided to replace the strings and removed them all at
once - we later learned that was a no-no, especially with those deep-bellied
Italian instruments. The sound post fell loose. I managed to reach the post
and get it into position with some dental tools while she installed a string
and got some tension back on the post. Fortunately, the position was very
obvious by the bright spot in the patena and I had a tool (and mirror) that
let me get to it. Best I can tell, that sound post was never glued nor is it
now. That was the only time I ever got to fiddle with the instrument, BTW.

–
Will Honea

31

Will Honea wrote:
> That was the only time I ever got to fiddle with the instrument,

for the infraction of “Unintentional Pun”: Go to your room and shut
the door! and, pay more attention next time!!

–
DenverD
When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]

32

On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 05:04:50 +0000, Will Honea wrote:

> Ah, yes. The first crisis with the “new violin” came on the evening of
> the first concert. She decided to replace the strings and removed them
> all at once - we later learned that was a no-no, especially with those
> deep-bellied Italian instruments. The sound post fell loose. I managed
> to reach the post and get it into position with some dental tools while
> she installed a string and got some tension back on the post.
> Fortunately, the position was very obvious by the bright spot in the
> patena and I had a tool (and mirror) that let me get to it. Best I can
> tell, that sound post was never glued nor is it now. That was the only
> time I ever got to fiddle with the instrument, BTW.

Oh, yes, that can be an issue - and the sound post does float freely -
the positioning of it is crucial to the sound of the instrument as well -
you can really change the tonal qualities by moving it around. The
violin maker across the alley from us has a specially designed tool for
moving the sound post (well, he would, it’s a tool of the trade <g>) and
showed me how it works when he was looking at mine to determine the
problem.

He also used a dental mirror to look inside the F-hole at the top of the
sound post to see if that was the problem - and it was…

Jim

–
Jim Henderson
openSUSE Forums Administrator
Forum Use Terms & Conditions at http://tinyurl.com/openSUSE-T-C

33

DenverD wrote:

> Will Honea wrote:
>> That was the only time I ever got to fiddle with the instrument,
>
> for the infraction of “Unintentional Pun”: Go to your room and shut
> the door! and, pay more attention next time!!

Unintentional???

–
Will Honea

34

Will Honea wrote:
> Unintentional???

oh! for intentional infractions: Go to your room, shut the door,
turn off your computer, TV, radio, iPhone, etc etc etc…and, read a
book, or write a novel.

–
DenverD
When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.
CAVEAT: http://is.gd/bpoMD [posted via NNTP w/openSUSE 10.3]