Binary Apts. for Newbies - Making Newbies love Linux

English Soapbox
#1

Hi all!

I had this question up my sleeve:

WHY DONT WE HAVE ALL APPLICATIONS IN FORMAT OF SHELL BINARY INSTALLABLE APPS LIKE JDK FROM SUN.COM AND REALPLAYER FROM REAL.COM, FOR ALL THE LINUX APPS AT SOURCEFORGE.NET OR OTHER FSF’s???

DownFall of Linux:
This is making Windows rule the desktops till today and seems for years to come. :sarcastic:

Linux End of Life:
Windows 2k has no current support, but approx all the new softwares are still installable into it (I still use it). I have my one box, still with opensuse10.2, it wont upgrade to 11.1, and I have no new features to install on it.

<I hate to compile>
. Netbeans on windows is available for all the platforms, same file. (no versioned rpms).

WHAT THERE MUST BE:
If we have an application, that runs on all opensuse, and all RedHats (AKA = Laal Topi, in my language ;)) also ubuntu, then if a BUG shows up, and rectified for Laal Topi, it gets fixed for other Linuxes too. This will make every linux user happy.

EASY INSTALLATION:
ALSO … This will make a single password Enter (not click) install for any linux.:wink:

I hope all you guys agree… :sarcastic:

#2

KhurramM adjusted his/her AFB on Saturday 09 May 2009 21:26 to write:

>
> Hi all!
>
> I had this question up my sleeve:
>
>> WHY DONT WE HAVE ALL APPLICATIONS IN FORMAT OF SHELL BINARY INSTALLABLE
>> APPS LIKE JDK FROM SUN.COM AND REALPLAYER FROM REAL.COM, FOR ALL THE
>> LINUX APPS AT SOURCEFORGE.NET OR OTHER FSF’s???

Something along these lines?

http://www.linux.com/feature/49328

and look at the date of said article.

have not followed the dev of those apps but it used to work.

HTH

–
Mark

Nullus in verba
Nil illigitimi carborundum

#3

Well I looked into the site for klik.

It is not upto the mark.
U dont get the versions of apps u want.
2 out of three apps failed miserably.

On windows2k u get the application installed and working not as a patch, the way klik is working, its more like the wine way.

Anyhow klik isnt required at all. The applications bin file, if exists can be directly executed without installation ;)… if it exists…:sarcastic:

#4

Well how can I send this message to all the package makers of Linuxes? Accross the globe.

Here I only send this to the opensuse guys…

#5

KhurramM wrote:
> Well how can I send this message to all the package makers of Linuxes?
> Accross the globe.
>
> Here I only send this to the opensuse guys…

now i might wrong, and forgive me if i am, but it seems to me that
your logic is:

If users could add applications by installing an executable binary
(kinda like MS-Windows does), then the “-DownFall_of_Linux:-” will
be averted.

and you want to make sure that the entire Linux Universe is told of
your solution…

i do not know of a simple way to let everyone know…but, you could
write to Linux’s creator Linus Torvalds and ask him to support and
propagate your solution as the one true way…

that might work…(but, i seem to have misplaced his private email
address…you could check out his personal blog…maybe in there
somewhere, see <http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/>)

or, you might want to create a NEW distro, with a new package
management system which allows the “-EASY_INSTALLATION:-” which
you want, and have decided is the one true overthrow-Redmond-plan…

and, IF your logic is correct, then the new “Khurram Linux” will
blaze up the list at http://distrowatch.com/....and, when THAT happens
you will have ALL “the package makers of Linuxes Accross [sic x2] the
globe” listening!!

then, as they close down all other software on the planet, your story
can join Linus’ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds> on
Wilkipedia–his as the initiator and project manager for Linux, and
yours as the -Savior_of_Linux_From_The_DownFall-

–
somebody_else

#6

Dear “somebody_else”

My Re-Proposal:

I want an install file like jre5xxx.bin or jre6xxx.bin for firefox-5xxx.bin say…

to install at /opt, regardless of my kernel, regardless of my distro, regardless of other installed apps

whatever I want.

Instead of seeking new dependencies never built as rpm or deb for my linux box.

these files in windows are installable from win2k to winXP to VISTA to win7.

Y not in Linux. os10.2 to os10.3 to os11.1???

I cannot contact Mr. Linus for this. I dont think he is in Package Management, but the distro makers are. Or if so, then I will contact him.

Thats my point. :sarcastic:

This thing makes newbies run away from linux. :\ Many have, and you know it.

Theres an application good for me at sourceforge, BUMMER, I cant compile it, I have deps missing or other issues. I dont know how to make an rpm. WHAT must I do? Even after 2 years in linux, I cant do it, how u want a newcommer to do it. In windows, u r free to install just by double click. No deps involved.

In other words I want NOT easy, BUT INSTALLABLE installation of what ever “apps” I want. Only for applications, not the kernels. :slight_smile:

How do you define Free Software, if not everybody can use it?

Why do I need to upgrade my OS to install firefox V5 released somewhere in 2010?

Hope to hear from u…

#7

> Hope to hear from u…

sorry, i have helped you all i can with getting the word out to the
entire Linux World on what to change and how…

but, i do wonder if you have never successfully compiled from code
what you continually do incorrectly…because i’m seldom unsuccessful
the first time out with any package…it is just a matter of reading
the instructions and meeting the dependency requirements…

and, i wonder if you know that (for example) Debian has now 25,311
software packages as easy to install as:


apt-get [packageName]

and, then i wonder what it is that you want to install that is NOT
among those 25,311

or, what application you find impossible to compile…

–
somebody_else

#8

and, i wonder if you know that (for example) Debian has now 25,311
software packages as easy to install as:


apt-get [packageName]



and, then i wonder what it is that you want to install that is NOT
among those 25,311

or, what application you find impossible to compile..

--
somebody_else

You definitely, got a point there.

But unlike jdk6 and jdk5 both available to all linuxes and all linux versions,

Is firefox-latest-version.rpm or firefox-latest-version.deb??? AVAILABLE for all linuxes???/ :wink:

This I want, a new version, whether RC / beta / Stable /Un-stable as .sh or .bin file, so I install it on my /opt/

and … my current package manager yast/ rpm / smart / dpkg can read it too, by Default:sarcastic:

I hope I made my self clear.:idea:

This way, any new user of linux will never leave linux.

I have not surveyed this. But the most annoying of all is that, above is true for windows 2k to windows7 for any version of firefox… LINUX LACKS THIS FEATURE…

Compiling is possible, but can every body do compiling?

CNR and Click have issues, and these do not provide the functionality I want for my Linux… :’(

#9

> Compiling is possible, but can every body do compiling?

yes, for folks who can read (enough to know that there IS a new
Firefox release) and follow directions it is easy…

OR, they can learn to LIVE with the last stable version available in
the openSUSE repo…

OR, they can stick with Redmond and buy all the anti-virus apps they
need to try to protect their machines from becoming a zombie.

but, of course you are asking a guy who is PROUD to tell you i’m using
Thunderbird 3.0.1-1.1, KDE 3.5.7, and openSUSE Linux 10.3–because it
is STABLE and nothing newer has anything i need bad enough to put up
with the PAIN of “upgrading”…

many want the ability to say they have the latest and greatest–i
suspect you do…but, then they wanna complain that having the latest
is not EASY…as you do…

you can have easy AND stable (like i do) or hard to get there, like
you want…

can’t have both AND it be free…[free as in freedom of choice, or
beer, or to improve/contribute…]

–
somebody_else

#10

can’t have both AND it be free…free as in freedom of choice, or beer, or to improve/contribute… …

somebody_else

Why are the users of windows 2k, who need latest firefox, realplay, JDK, netbeans and lots more, STILL enjoying, and Linux Newbies are not, comparatively (okay I call myself Newbie, and I am not shy, … even after 2 years in linux).

Regarding compiling, I would have challenged u, but since u r too far and I am not on os11.1, I like to delay this for later.

But if I learn good programming and packaging, I will one day, release .sh or .bin installables for all the linux softwares.

This is utter waste of time, installing a new osVER every six months, but my win2k is still running with latest softwares, and os10.2 with all the out-dated ones. Though I seldom use it now. Old is gold, maturity is prefferred over youth.

Maybe, u will one day agree, do let me know… :wink:

#11

On 5/15/09 6:26 AM, KhurramM wrote:
>> can’t have both AND it be free…[free as in freedom of choice, or beer,
>> or to improve/contribute… …
>> –
>> somebody_else
>>
>
> Why are the users of windows 2k, who need latest firefox, realplay,
> JDK, netbeans and lots more, STILL enjoying, and Linux Newbies are not,
> comparatively (okay I call myself Newbie, and I am not shy, … even
> after 2 years in linux).
>
> Regarding compiling, I would have challenged u, but since u r too far
> and I am not on os11.1, I like to delay this for later.
>
> But if I learn good programming and packaging, I will one day, release
> .sh or .bin installables for all the linux softwares.
>
> This is utter waste of time, installing a new osVER every six months,
> but my win2k is still running with latest softwares, and os10.2 with all
> the out-dated ones. Though I seldom use it now. Old is gold, maturity is
> prefferred over youth.
>
> Maybe, u will one day agree, do let me know… :wink:
>
>[/color]
I’m a little confused, is there a reason why the package management
systems aren’t working for some reason? You should be able to get the
stable updates, and if you need an update to the latest and greatest
just use a trusted third party repo.

#12

@KhurramM: with all due respect, have you taken the time to understand what Linux (in general) is and what Package Managers (in particular) are? What their goals are and why do they exist?

What you are asking for, unknowingly, is to make Linux a complete mess with tons of dependency problems and so on. If for whatever reason you don’t have the time to learn, which is absolutely fine, then stick to win2k (an OS 9 years old!).

Ah! And take a look at one of the next windows’ release (win 6.1 aka windows 7) “new” features: a common place for installing (and managing?) applications in ONE VERY PLACE… like OMG! Package Managers!

(In my opinion, which unfortunately is not humble - but why should it be? - Package Managers are one of the many strengths in Linux.)

#13

TO: 69_rs_ss

Sir! I have had my linux times most worst time after upgrading to os11.1
I just wanna stay back with my os10.2 untill I buy my new latest 64-bit AMD PC, one day… :wink:
I ran ubuntu606. It was cool too.
But os11.1 and ub804 and ub810 are just chewing on resources and giving me craps.

I wanna stay in os102 and ub606 for some time, until I feel confident to goto the newer kernels. I dont want any updates on these two, but the new softwares must be installable.

This feature is lacking in all new linux releases, versus the windows.

I want a single repo for all linuxes having, installation files as:
firefox-for-all-linux-1.bin XXmb
firefox-for-all-linux-2.bin XXmb
firefox-for-all-linux-3.bin XXmb
firefox-for-all-linux-4.bin XXmb

no reason why I need to install 4 version, but cant do it on the old kernel?

Windows give this option, then why not linux?

This is unfair as to the FSF=Free Software term. I cant use it, and its free. It sounds funny to me.

Core advantage would be that if anybody fixes a bug in redhat, it also gets fixed for us in suse, automatically.

I do not desire the core packages like gcc, g++, fdisk, parted etc to be made available like this, but the built applications, like sun is doing in case of java. For gparted, netbeans, oracleXE, firefox, Gambas

TO:
TioDuke

Sir! I think u r against the Free Software for ALL concept. Linux concept, I want it to stay there. NO PROBLEEMO!!! But I dont wanna upgrade just to use ready made firefox5.0. I just wannna install firefox-5.0-xxxx.bin directly on Linux kernel 2.0 to kernal 3.0, …

Why does it have to be a milestone in ones life? MY ONLY POINT?

If u disagree, then for such guys Arch Linux is best, I dont wanna do a PHD … ahem … in linux. I wanna USE, ENJOY, DO MY DAILY PC WORK on linux. I dont wanna spend hours figuring to compile.

… for others if Realplayer and JDK are available as bins… WHY NOT Firefox?

I dont want dore packages like kernel, gcc, g++ etx to be as bin, but the packages for daily purposes like firefox, and millions of others as bin files, without deps issues. AND installable on any linux, rather then rpm and deb …

Personally, there are more bugs in windows, starting from viruses … I dont wanna waste my precious time fixing viruses and daily re-installs. This is waste of time. Linux doesnt waste time, until I wanna install something outside repos or freindly … :wink: … rpm packages built only for few distros.

#14

KhurramM wrote:
> I dont wanna waste my precious time fixing viruses and daily
> re-installs.

good for you, me neither…i am with you on that 1000%…and because
we agree on that one point i’m gonna use a little of
my_precious_time trying to help you see this problem in a different
light…

> This is waste of time. Linux doesnt waste time, until
> I wanna install something outside repos or freindly … :wink: … rpm
> packages built only for few distros.

first, i challenge you to list those applications/programs which are
neither in the openSUSE repos nor in (as you say) “friendly rpm
packages” usable by openSUSE…

i challenge you to come up with a list of 20 commonly used programs
which are not ‘friendly’ and easy…

but, before you start that, let me try to lead you to understand that
there are probably many more ‘friendly’ packages available than you
now know:

because openSUSE can easily use ALL RPMs marked either ‘suse’ or ‘no
arch’ and can most probably use all RPMs marked for red hat, fedora,
centos, and others if you install them the_easy_way i now outline:

  1. download the rpm
  2. single right click it
  3. select from the popup menu Actions > Install with YaST
  4. enter root password when asked

doing so (if you have OSS, Non-OSS, Update, and Packman repos active)
will usually find all dependencies and smoothly install the new
application…

and place it in the menu system…

and afterwards a search of YaST will then show the new application’s
existence on your system by a check mark in the box next to the
application’s (and dependencies) names–which means you now have an
EASY way to UNinstall the app…

NOTE (from my experience): so far, i’ve not had any trouble installing
a Red Hat or similar RPM…now, you may find one (or a few) that just
won’t install…and, i challenge you to find just 20 applications
which is NOT offered in the openSUSE repos and is not available on
the net marked for ‘suse’ and won’t install and work great if
marked for red hat et al…

so, i think we are discussing your displeasure at the non-EASY
install of VERY few applications…

prove me wrong by supplying that list of 20…

and, make’em non-games…i won’t waste my precious time trying to turn
a professional, industrial strength operating system into just another
gamebox*…especially one whose design hope is to exactly mirror an
existing game…you want game?

buy them and run them on legally purchased Redmond systems…Mr. Bill
needs the money…

–
somebody_else

#15

Specially to:

somebody_else

My Stand and VIEW:

Well! I think one day, the tables gonna be in reverse, the feature I want will be in Linux.***

Regarding 20 list: thoggen was taken by a guy somewhere last year, in the opensuse-forum.de (the then), every body tried to help. In the end he was compelled to the option to use k9copy-xxx.rpm as it was in repos and thoggen was not installable, + [2] high-colours-xxxx.src.rpm was not installable + [3-20+] Many files I wanted to compile, BUT, I currently dont need them on my os10.2.

Dont worry I will email to u direct and POST also, in case I run into compiling stuff again on os112, if it installs on my hardware :.

2nd POINT:
Why dont we get a sudo install.sh to install such apps, because they always have strange dependencies, and tarballs till today are in-complete, I think. :wink:

#16

The problem is the way your looking at it…

The question isn’t why can’t I install thoggen I actually doubt you’ll get it for many distro’s it never reached a 1.0 release. It was a development version therefore requires some development knowledge to install, just because many apps in development are easy to install doesn’t mean they are for mainstream.

The question is does anyone know of good dvd backup software? To that question you have many answers. You don’t try to force a sqr peg in a round hole.

Can you get thoggen to install on MS then?

#17

Actually you have outdated chipset drivers, outdated DirectX and various other APIs. You won’t be able to install new games on it, quite a host of other applications require XP or Vista and so forth.

I guess that T-Ford is still “getting you there”? I think I’ll drive my 2009 BMW, rather.

#18

rotfl!

I can see his point tho. But sadly it is a very windows point of view. I download or buy a piece of software, Click setup or insert the DVD, it autoruns and starts the installation process… Click a few nexts and unclick a few boxes and it installs.

However, I have started to apriciate Linux’s package management in the 10 months I have been using Linux. It took getting used to but it is really good. You can, for example, update a program by downloading only the part of the program that needed updating. Like KDE 4.2. I have a complete new desktop without having to download a new operating system. Donwload a new kernel and it’s like installing a service pack in windows.

Anyway, if you like Windows’s way of installing things, stick with windows. I am sticking with Linux because I like having control about what my computer does.

Just my 2ct’s… :slight_smile:

#19

TO Dexter1979:

It is not a windows point of view.
People like u havent tested dos, unix and mac, … so think and take windows as a GOD for everything and every feature.

Goto this site:
Java SE Downloads - Sun Developer Network (SDN)
I am killing my self by responding to this :frowning:
WHY DO THEY OFFER JDK6 and JDK5 for any linux. Is it windows style now? Tell them to correct it. BUT NO, I forgot, its solaris style… :wink:

TO: Chrysantine

I wish I have that money. I dont need free software, then. Canonical and novel will send there protocol staff on my door to install latest firefox and other goodies for me … fishuu.

I dont like video games anymore.

AND to the most utter dismay same board has allowed ubuntu9.04 (latest version) to install and run perfectly. While os11.1 runs with blinking screen. like :wink: (Sorry to say) IRONICALLY, though it has support for my board.

Since I dont call it a bug, I dont report it. Well the newer kernels’ hardware finder is very non-intelligent like that of VISTA. U need to tweak more. Now this is getting off-topic here.

To FeatherMonkey:

Sir! I am not concerned with tar balls. I dont like to compile, I just want something to install like rpm -ivh file.rpm like (say) bin -i file.bin for any and all linuxes.
THEN we get following adavantages:

1> Faster updating.
2> Faster bug fixing (as every one uses it).
3> More documentation to configure and use.
4> Choice to use any version … any-time.
5> Be independent of compiling and dependency seeking.
6> Sinle repos for all linux.
7> Easy downgrading, if required.
8> Easy testing of a unstable release.
9> Installing as a core-package rather then a dependent.
10> More helps available … I am going to take a nap right now.

Look at the multi-advantages of this binary install technique…

I wish somebody agrees to me … :’(

#20

Okay I agree with you in a special case. The package management and the online repositories is great idea and better then the manual installation.
But without Internet connection it worth nothing. So yes, for newbies without Internet connection this would be the best idea so far. There is nothing to discuss with this - it just doesn’t exists, don’t know why. Just imagine a newbie with a fresh Linux installation and compiling notes. :slight_smile: