Another poinent rant brought to you be me

English Open Chat
#1

I have been thinking about this for days, the thing is, I am not as articulate as some of you are, so bear with me.

I, like some of you, have been with Linux, and in particular openSUSE for a long time. I started with openSUSE back when it was SuSE. I remember cutting my teeth on Red Hat 7.something and Slackware 7.1. Then I went to Mandrake 8.0. But enough of the history, and on to my point. I have noticed some attitudes among our more tenured Linux users that, well to put it simply, has to change. Over all, this community is great, and provides a great service to newbies, but when these newbies express an "improvement, because of something, take how some have expressed “improvements” to YaST, they have been shot down. Now granted, YaST is a great tool. Is it perfect? No! Can it be improved? Yes! We could simplify it. That, in essence is what their expressing. Not so much that we transform YaST into synaptic. But instead of listening to them, we become hostile, and subsequently run them off.

Another area is the change of KDE. We are one of the last distros to have and offer KDE 3.5, but it is KDE that has brought that to an end. The only way to keep 3.5 is if the community does it. I tried to see if we could keep it, but the answer was “no”.

The last area to address, or that I will address. Perhaps some others can bring up some other points. Is the attitude of RTFM. This, quite simply has got to stop. We all started at some point. We were all newbies at some point. But the attitude of RTFM says that you have forgotten where you began, or that you have become cold and calloused. This has two problems. 1) Linux can be made easier. I have heard and see where tenured Linux users will chew newbies out cause they didn’t check the HCL. While they may have a valid point, Linux can do things to make it easier for the user. One of the first things, after accepting the license is probing the hardware. Now after the hardware probe, we could put in the hardware that was detected, what hardware showed up on the HCL as known to work, what won’t work, and what might work. This, in and of itself would go a long way.
2)The other problem is that it communicates to the newbie that we don’t care. That they are on their own. This is not the message, we at openSUSE wish to convey. I’m glad that some of the tenured users are tenacious and read the manual, and through trial and error got it working. But not everyone is like that. We need to learn to see beyond ourselves, and put ourself in their shoes.

Linux/openSUSE can do so much better, and I am working on some ideas behind the scenes. I can’t go into it now. But please, make use of openFate for feature requests, and then post the feature request here in the forum. Also feel free to make me personally aware. We must not shrink away from change, but embrace it.

OK, I’ll get my fire retardant suit now. I welcome all posts. I’m sure some will agree with me, and some won’t.

#2

You’re making some valid points here, however I have some things to point out:

But instead of listening to them, we become hostile, and subsequently run them off.

You must not forget that sometimes it’s the newbie attitude that set the flame on. Yes, I know this is not good for the community but once in a while you’ll see some first-times posters coming in and says “Hey you know what? XXXXX does not works and OpenSuSe SuXX!!!” and posts like “I’m switching to Ub****** / M$ Win**** because SUse FAILS!!”. Seriously I do not know how to respond to this ind of posts, because if the newbies aren’t willing to ask for help sincerely, aren’t willing to learn and make fast conclusions based on first impressions, it does require a lot of patient to deal with them. Of course if the newbies have done their own homework, read the stickies (which brings us to the next point) and post in the right forum with the sincere intention of asking for help, then it’s our fault to turn hostile towards them.

The last area to address, or that I will address. Perhaps some others can bring up some other points. Is the attitude of RTFM. …]
2)The other problem is that it communicates to the newbie that we don’t care. That they are on their own.

I believe that it’s not that people are not willing/do not care to help these newbies. Sometimes it’s just too obvious (which I do not see a lot these days anyway) or asked too often and there’s already solutions in the forum (Use search!!). I believe the moderators do have templates to deal with exactly this kind of questions. And I believe it’s kinda redundant to help them one by one instead of just pointing them to the POSSIBLE solution (which I think is different of just RTFM) and if they have further problems they can raise it again in the thread.

#3

Sure, their set on flame. They came in with certain expectations, and it didn’t happen. We have all been the victims of hype before. But we can beat this by seeing through their flame fest, and just seeing that their so frustrated that they don’t know what to do. Often times, flames have valid points. Maybe they don’t ask for help because in their mind, there is no point. It’s broken. What do they know? Their newbies remember?

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but if a child throws a tantrum, should the parent also throw a tantrum? No. A parent is supposed to demonstrate to the child the proper way of acting, and correct the child. Essentially, that’s what we’re dealing with here.

We can not ever take the position that it’s to obvious. Just cause it is to us, remember, we are the tenured ones. We should, whenever possible, point them to the appropriate article or thread. Just never assume it’s obvious. This is the mindset we need to get rid of.

#4

That is true, but it requires a lot of patient, and patient is not something that everybody has here.

C’est la vie :wink:

At least we can do our parts, Jon :slight_smile:

#5

Hello Jonathan

the attitude of RTFM. This, quite simply has got to stop.

I have the impression that there are very few RTFM answers on this forum. However the results of my search may be misleading, because the moderators have cleaned up some of the posts. I agree with you that RTFM as a “stand alone” answer is a bad thing. But giving a pointer to one of the many well written HOWTO’s (e.g. those from swerdna’s site) is a very good thing. I can see no benefit in re-typing things which have already been explained elsewhere. I think it is essential that newcomers become aware that there is a lot of help available on the openSUSE website. And when they become able to solve some problem by themselves they become proud and happy users.

but when these newbies express an "improvement, because of something, take how some have expressed “improvements” to YaST, they have been shot down.

They should not be “shot down” or turned down but sometimes they should be ignored. Again I agree that real newbies often have problems and their posts sometimes show points where openSUSE could be improved and be made more user friendly. But when I see members of the “distro hoppers gang” claiming to have years of experience and ranting that something is a lot better in distro X I have not the slightest urge to convince them of something else. SUSE should do things the SUSE way and dare to be different. That’s why I’m a proud user of the SuSE distribution since 1.0.9 which was published in July 1994 and called itself “deutsche Slackware” at the time. And guess what their motto was? “Have a lot of fun…” So let’s continue this forum in the true spirit!

#6

I haven’t seen much dismissive, “RTFM” in the replies here, either. I personally think this is one of the most helpful forums on the Web. I’m not saying it never happens – hey, we’re all human, and sometimes tempers flare – but compare this place to some of the other forums I’ve been in, and there’s an obvious difference.

The only time I’ve noticed a tendency for the regulars here to be abrasive is when the original poster starts out that way: “Suse is a pile of junk and I’m switching back to Windows!” The OP doesn’t ask for help, he/she simply comes in here to rant and then disappear. Not surprising in that case that some folks here give them the ol, “don’t let the doorknob whack your rumpus on the way out.” :slight_smile:

But personally, I’ve been impressed at the patience of most of the regulars here. With a lot of people using OpenSuse now, you’re going to see the same questions over and over. Pointing the questioner to another thread (or a How-To, or a link at a site like HowToForge or Swerdna’s pages) isn’t dismissing them, it’s saving time so that you can move on to someone else who might have a new, unique problem.

If you want to see abrasive, try some of the other Linux forums. Ubuntu is pretty friendly, but I’ve run across some that make ME cringe when I read the replies.

#7

You both make excellent points. However,I also think your taking what I said to literally. I was referring to an attitude, although I have seen RTFM. Usually the RTFM happens in chat/IRC.

We have all seen people where they are distro hoppers. The question begs to be asked…why? They obviously are trying Linux. So its not that. The answer is their looking for something and haven’t found it yet. This is why I stress that we need to listen to them. Yes, they can be abrasive.

As to my membership at other forums, well, you can always Google that. But lets just say, I am no stranger to how other sites treat people. Still, that doesn’t mean we can’t do even better.

Yes, I know I am raising the bar. Are you up for it? I figure we as a community can do it. It’ll make us a better community to.

#8

I see an opportunity to give a view from the prospective of a new user. I,ve rescued my old laptop from the closet with Puppy Linux. I’m looking for a Linux distro for my #2 desktop to save it from the scrap pile. Opensuse was touted as a good system for someone coming from MS Windows. I’ll admit Windows 95, 98 98se, ME and XP have made computing easy. It was for the person that wanted a graphical desktop instead of working from the command line. It had YaST, the point and click solution to almost any need. It had KDE and I was hoping to replace Quicken with Kmymoney.

On a 1 to 10 computer savvy scale I’d give myself a 3.5. I had done some reading on Linux and Puppy was a challenge, mostly because of the hardware I had, but a success. I felt confident Friday morning. I defraged Windows and started Opensuse from the live-cd I had downloaded and burned. I’d wanted a dual boot plus a small partition where I might install a small Linux distro later. I tried for my plan but ended up accepting Opensuse’s dual boot plan. I got to the prompt to reboot and when I did I got the “missing operating system” screen. Not good. I’d been warned I could lose everything on the hard drive. There wasn’t anything I needed on it but, there were things I’d hoped to keep. A quick peek at the hard drive using the Puppy live-cd told me everything was on there. I soon found out by checking the net I, like others before me, had a Grub problem. I found the Super Grub Disc and later GRUB Boot Multiboot openSUSE Windows (2000, XP, Vista) using the Grub bootloader.. Back in business, I boot into Opensuse, I’m not connected to my network. I’m used to running the Puppy live-cd on this wired ethernet machine where it takes 3 easy clicks to get connected. After a good hour and a half I give up. It’s been a long day.

All day Saturday got me to; I’ve typed and entered more shell scripts than I have in my life, still not connected to my network, I can’t enable Network Manager, I don’t know if I have IPv4 or IPv6 or why I need to know that, I can’t change the desktop background (I don’t like green), I’ve lost all the icons on the desktop and I’ve seen enough on this forum to know I’m to stupid to come here for help.

Mostly, I’m posting to share my view. I’m not asking for help. I am leaning toward saying Opensuse is not for me and trying something else. Has anyone gone from where I am to using and liking Opensuse? I’m feeling pretty dumb right now so, if you feel the need to point that out, that’s not necessary.

Take care

#9

Pretty much that was my position back 5 years ago (left Win 98). ( I and a few other guys now run a unofficial openSUSE Forum for the last year and a half, mostly trying to cater to just folks). However you should post to ask for help either on this Official Forum or to another Linux Forum when you run into trouble. Some times it is nothing major to correct and you can be up and sailing in no time. By allowing frustration to build without a solution it is easy to jump to a unwarranted conclusion. (You thinking you are dumb). No one that has the ability to use Super grub and understand the need for partitions is dumb.

So my hope is you will post your question along with what your equipment and setup is.

Good Fortune.

#10

There is no need to feel dumb. I agree with Matt though. You should ask for help. That’s what this place is for.

#11

Hi obxjerry

I see that this is your first post: welcome to the forums. This is a friendly place where you can find lots of valuable advice.

All day Saturday got me to; I’ve typed and entered more shell scripts than I have in my life, still not connected to my network, I can’t enable Network Manager, I don’t know if I have IPv4 or IPv6 or why I need to know that, I can’t change the desktop background (I don’t like green), I’ve lost all the icons on the desktop and I’ve seen enough on this forum to know I’m to stupid to come here for help.

This is about the best description of the 11.2 distro I have seen. You are not too stupid at all; I lost my icons recently and had a hard time to get them back. Almost everyone has the IPv6 issue and getting the connectivity to run is a matter of a minute or the nightmare of a week if you don’t know the details.

Please do me a favour: please open a new thread and me (and others) will be glad to help you to get your system running. This is Jonathan’s thread and I am sure you don’t want to hijack it.

#12

We have all seen people where they are distro hoppers. The question begs to be asked…why? They obviously are trying Linux. So its not that. The answer is their looking for something and haven’t found it yet. This is why I stress that we need to listen to them. Yes, they can be abrasive.

Unfortunately your thread was interrupted, but I like this discussion, because you raise an important point in an intelligent way. So let’s go on.

Distro hoppers are playing a game: the never ending quest for something “better” (note the quotes) and they will never really use any distro. It is an incredible amount of work to produce a good distribution and I sincerely hope it is done for people who are intending to use it with all those wonderful packages which are free software.

As a volunteer I like to give something back to a community which has done so much for me. Doing so I can agree to the following principles:

  • Always be polite.

  • Give advice to the best of my knowledge.

  • Ask stupid questions myself (sometimes)

This forum has a couple of brilliant moderators. But for real life and drama it needs the participation of users, and these users will sometimes scratch the limits of the rules. Some noise is inevitable. Yes, we can do better, but only to the point before it becomes boring. Let’s spend real time for real users with real questions.

#13

I’m sorry Jonathan. I didn’t mean to hijack your thread or even interrupt. Looking back at what I said, I was trying too hard not to be harsh to get my point across.

I’m a new user. I had problems with Opensuse. I had problems with Puppy. In my search for answers I spent some time in the Puppy forum and this forum. In the Puppy forum I saw stupid questions asked and patient people helping the people that asked them. I didn’t hesitate to ask 2 questions and I got my problems taken care of. In this forum I really didn’t see any stupid questions. I did see some rude comments, criticisms and corrections made. I think you’re right. People are afraid to ask questions.

I’m really not looking for people to beg me to stay or expect me to ask questions. After 2 days working on Opensuse I am considering my options. I realize if I go to another Linux I may be written off as a distro shopper just raising a stink and moving on. If a friend asked my opinion of Opensuse I would say I think it’s a system that has evolved with it’s users, not for newbies unless they have a lot of technical knowledge. If Opensuse works for the loyal users and is refined with their input I think that’s worth defending. That’s neither selfish or shameful.

I hope my observations are in some way helpful and on topic.

#14

You make some fair points. I must disagree with your last statement though. Simply because it begs to define what “real” is. What may be real to you, may not be to someone else. The answer to this is to treat, as much as possible, whenever possible, all things as real and legit.

Take for example, the user you said interrupted the thread. I didn’t see it as an interruption, but participation. I also thought he made a fair point. Now granted he’s having a hard time with openSUSE, in particular the networking aspect. Probably KNetworkManager. While some of us could resolve this quite easily, the point is, that in another distro, a live CD, in 3 clicks he’s online. Now, this begs a question. Why can’t it be that easy in openSUSE? The answer is, it can!

I don’t see how constant improvement can be boring. There are always challenges. Whether its dealing with difficult users/posters, or bugs, or requesting features. To me, I find all this quite exciting. When I said “we can do better”, it wasn’t just how we deal with people. That’s only one piece of the pie. It was also dealing with bugs, and producing a quality, or better quality product. And it was also about feature requests, to make openSUSE a better distro and more inline with what the users want.

#15

I think your observations are helpful. I, myself have witnessed rude responses. I, myself have been guilty of rude responses in the past. It’d be hard to find now, since most of those were on suselinuxsupport forums. A user should never be afraid to ask questions, but also keep in mind, that not doing homework tends to get an “appropriate” response. :wink: If you know what I mean.

openSUSE is not meant to be a system for technical users. Any user should be able to pick up openSUSE install it, and use it. That is the goal of openSUSE. Clearly, openSUSE has not achieved that goal. Which is only part of the reason I do threads like this. We, the tenured Linux/openSUSE users have gotten used to things being a certain way. To us, it makes perfect sense. But we often forget what it was like when we first started.

When I first started, I did distro hop. Some was curiosity. Some was, I didn’t quite like what I was getting/seeing. Slackware, for example; a good solid distro, but not for newbies. I started on Slackware. Compiling software, compiling the kernel, oh joy. Nope, not for me. Especially back then, in the days of KDE 1.x and kernel 2.4.x. I also tried Red Hat. I kind of liked linuxconf, but I hated how every time you clicked on something, a new window popped up. Then I tried Mandrake. Wow! A gui partitioner like Partition Magic. Whoa! Nice! A package manager, that pulled rpm’s from repositories and installed software. Something I had not seen before. I was impressed, until after several releases (yes, I stayed that long. I started with Mandrake 8.0 and stayed till about Mandrake 10.0), I went to update my system and urpmi uninstalled my system. Oh joy. After that, I came to SuSE 9.3. Been here ever since. At first, YaST confused me. Adding repos was weird to me. But once someone explained it, I was off.

Point is, we all have our starting points. Was I distro hopping? Perhaps, but that distro hopping lead me to find SuSE/openSUSE which is now my distro of choice. For those debian/Ubuntu folks, I have tried that as well. This computer that I am on now, the Insperon 530N, came with Ubuntu pre-installed. I tried Ubuntu for a while. I even tried KUbuntu and Ubuntu Ultimate Edition. I liked Ubuntu Ultimate Edition the best, out of the *buntu’s. But it still wasn’t openSUSE. I missed the centralized control panel (YaST), and I missed how openSUSE lays out the menus.

I believe I covered my other points in my last post, so I won’t repeat myself.

#16

obxjerry wrote:
> I hope my observations are in some way helpful and on topic.

thank you and good luck in your quest to rescue old machines which
obviously can not run modern Redmond/Cupertino software…

i really doubt if you can beat Puppy for that, but thanks for looking
in here…bye…

–
palladium

#17

Somehow I’m my smartest in the middle of the night when I should be sleeping. Vodoo and Matt I was remiss in not thanking you for your kind offer of help. I hope you understand I’m not going to ask for help if I’m not ready to do my part and implement the actions needed. I know this thread is not the place to do that anyway. I’m in no hurry to do anything, I don’t have the time right now to devote to this project so I’m weighing my options.

Palladium, Puppy is a very good choice for my laptop. My #2 desktop can handle a bit more. Thanks for the heads up.

#18

I, too, have gotten a couple of RTFM responses and they are infuriating. They invite a response that would ruin your reputation. Happily, over the years they are very rare. But when you get one, it seems like that is all there is. What is especially nice about this forum is that when you see one of the RTFM responses, someone else jumps in with a helpful answer.

I have spent years with suse and in that time have become more patient with the distro and myself. Most of my problems related to video and it would drive me off the rails. :wink: Most of that was because I HAD to play with Compiz. It’s what keeps me running a WAY underpowered pc with 11.3 and KDE 4.4; just to see what is the latest thing. Now, when I do an update and my video tanks, a reboot is all it takes to sort things out. OpenSUSE and I have come a long way in a few years.

All this leads up to a complaint/concern about newbies and the forum. “You don’t know what you don’t know!” If you are new and experience a problem, often it is hard to explain what’s wrong and harder to understand the fix, even if that fix is simple. I have hundreds of posts and read thousands more and I still get stumped finding answers that I know are here. That is because I often don’t know exactly what to search for. If I have a problem with nvidia, do I want to read 7,000 posts to solve my problem? No. For a newbie, its a deal breaker.

Often, all that’s needed is a response like

Here is a good solution to your problem <link>
Answers like that with links to swerdna’s page have solved all my networking problems which seemed impossible to me. I admit that I get annoyed, not to the RTFM level, when I see a series of threads on the same topic posted on the say day by different people who did not RTFF. But a newbie may not realize his problem is the one that someone else is trying to describe. Patience with the newbies and not-so-newbies will go a long way to grow openSUSE

#19

Just a couple of remarks:

The RTFM, man first etc attitude is not common overhere. It happens, yet gets commented by others. I’ve seen many examples of fora where this is completely different.
From what I’ve seen over the years, new users generally are welcomed and helped. Generally i.e.

#20

It looks to me like this thread may dying and since this is the only place I’ve posted I hope I can use it one last time. I reinstalled 11.2, no joy, ran 10.3 and 11.2 live from DVD/CD. I much prefer 10.3. I’ve been lurking around here trying to find out if that’s a viable option. I didn’t find that answer but I did come to a plan forward. Palladium, I think you’re right. Puppy is where I belong.

Thanks to all, bye