Another lesson learned the hard way - about multiple version of linux on one machine

English Open Chat
#1

I have Leap 15(dual boot), and am more than happy with it. Considering putting it on my laptop as the only OS, once I get the network thing worked out on this old desktop, and try to understand the nVidia GPU problems I see. I can turn nVidia off in Windows, but not sure I can in Leap.

BUT>> I installed Mint on a spare HDD, and that was a mistake IMO.
I know a lot of users here probably multi boot several distros on one machine, but it didn’t work out for me what with WIn10 being in the boot chain as well.

Currently I push the start button and quickly have a three selection menu to pick from.
But after the Mint install, I had to jump through hoops to get to Win10, Win7 and Leap 15. Three screens and four or more mouse or keyboard moves.
I think that was because Mint took over the whole boot process, but could/would not see everything. And I am not smart enough(yet) to change that sort of thing.

Other than that, I just did not like Mint after it was installed. The single user thing is IMO sucky in a way.
The ‘live USB version’ worked better for me and I could do more since in allows me advanced privileges.

I do not know about other distros, but I have learned, for me, to stay away from the ‘buntu’ distros.

#2

Yes, that can be frustrating.

I actually have Windows 8.1, Leap 42.2, Leap 42.3 and Leap 15.0 on my main desktop. I’m mainly using Leap 15.0. My next linux install will replace Leap 42.2, which I have not booted for a year.

Yes, I did have to work at it, to make this go smoothly. Typically, each system wants to control booting, and I had to tame that.

The worst is Windows – it refuses to install some Windows updates unless Windows controls the booting. So, once a month, I have to switch it over so that Windows controls the booting. I then run the monthly updates. And then I switch it back to openSUSE.

#3

I don’t have problems like that with Windows update, Win10 nor Win7, I can boot into either one, click the update switch and off it goes. Slowly as MS has that tendency.
Before my laptop went from Win8.1 to Win10, it had problems with updates, and that was without any other OS on it.

But I don’t have Windows controlling Leap, nor do I have Leap boot controlling windows, if that makes sense.(I’m not smart enough about it to know).
And I wouldn’t know how to switch from Leap to Windows and back to Leap. All I know is Leap install did not touched my Windows MBR.

I guess what I meant in the OP was I am just too new to try for things that are out of my reach at this time.

PS>> I Read some of your blog. lot of good stuff there!

#4

Sure. That works.

But sometime, Windows installs an update. Then it asks me to reboot. And then, on reboot, in uninstalls that update.

This has happened once with Vista, once with Windows 7, and 3 time with Windows 8.1. If I set the computer up so that it boots straight into Windows the way that Windows would have set it up, then the update works and is not uninstalled. If I boot to Windows from the grub2 menu, I run into that problem. My box with 8.1 is a UEFI box. I can hit F12 during boot and get the BIOS boot menu. Even if I boot to Windows that way, two updates have failed. I have to set it to automatically boot to Windows for the updates to succeed. I can then hit F12 during boot and select openSUSE from the BIOS menu to get back to where I want to be.

#5

On 2018-06-13, BillLyte <BillLyte@no-mx.forums.microfocus.com> wrote:
> I have Leap 15(dual boot), and am more than happy with it. Considering
> putting it on my laptop as the only OS, once I get the network thing
> worked out on this old desktop, and try to understand the nVidia GPU
> problems I see. I can turn nVidia off in Windows, but not sure I can in
> Leap.

My advice for desktops is one hard drive per operating system. That way when each operating system wants to update its
bootloader (including Windows) it can do so with no negative side effects. On laptops, adding hard drives isn’t usually
feasible so I would advise a maximum of 2 operating systems.

> BUT>> I installed Mint on a spare HDD, and that was a mistake IMO.
> I know a lot of users here probably multi boot several distros on one
> machine, but it didn’t work out for me what with WIn10 being in the boot
> chain as well.

On my desktop I multiboot with Win7, Win10, openSUSE, Mint, and Gentoo (yes, 5 hard drives). I find the most recent Mint
(Sylvia) installer buggy, since it sometimes decide using a different /boot/efi partition different to the one you have
spespecified. The safest thing to do when installing operating systems, is disconnected all hard drives except the one
you want to install on (which is a bit of pain if you have an NVMe drive, but worth it).

> Currently I push the start button and quickly have a three selection
> menu to pick from.
> But after the Mint install, I had to jump through hoops to get to Win10,
> Win7 and Leap 15. Three screens and four or more mouse or keyboard
> moves.

You should be able to control the boot order within your BIOS/UEFI. Indeed for UEFI systems, I think it is really a
requirement.

> I think that was because Mint took over the whole boot process, but
> could/would not see everything. And I am not smart enough(yet) to change
> that sort of thing.

It should be possible within Mint to make whatever changes you wish, run grub-mkconfig (which should include os-prober -
although I think Mint uses update-gaub rather than grub-mkconfig), and reboot.

> Other than that, I just did not like Mint after it was installed. The
> single user thing is IMO sucky in a way.

I don’t understand. Mint allows multiple users. Rather bizarrely Mint doesn’t have the root account enabled by default
so you have to run `sudo passwd root’ to enable it.

> The ‘live USB version’ worked better for me and I could do more since in
> allows me advanced privileges.

I think live USB media is useful for repairing operating systems or trying out different desktops, but not much more.

> I do not know about other distros, but I have learned, for me, to stay
> away from the ‘buntu’ distros.

The joy that is GNU/Linux is choice. Some people much prefer all-batteries-included distributions such as Mint so they
don’t have to worry about propretiary issues concerning video drivers, codecs, etc… Others prefer a greater degree of
control, even it means batteries aren’t included at installation, and therefore choose openSUSE or Arch. Finally there
are those that need absolute control over every package, including compiler flags, and opt for a source distribution
such as Gentoo.

#6

OK, now I understand better. The complications of multiple systems, and using grub2 as the loader?

#7

That explains why my attempt didn’t work.

> Other than that, I just did not like Mint after it was installed. The
> single user thing is IMO sucky in a way.

Yeah, but getting another one created was a problem for me as I couldn’t do ‘root’ <see below>, making me a ‘single’ user.

Nor do most, if not all of the ‘buntu’ based distros.
That is what I didn’t like about it at all. No ‘easy’ access to a root account. I know! not a good idea, but sometimes it is needed and not tomorrow when I learn how to get there.

Tried that `sudo passwd root’ multiple times, got nothing but ‘not allowed, permission denied’.

any way, MInt is no longer part of my desktop wioth 4 HDD’s, and it was on it’s own drive.

#8

Hehe. Hey, Bill, I keep following your experiences and explorations with fascination. I am thrilled to see you trying, testing, and wrestling with things as you move forward. Very encouraging to see, and the very best way to learn things, IMHO.

Keep it up. Always lots of good fellow-openSUSErs to pitch in and help you out. Most will be inspired to help simply because you keep exploring and moving forward.

FWIW: I have openSUSE Leap 42.3 and Leap 15.0, plus Tumbleweed, along with a specialize Music Production distro, AV Linux (based on Debian/Gnu Linux) on this machine, all on a single HD, with room to add more if I want them.

I am talking to you right now from within 15.0.

I got here the same way as you: Struggling, trying things, wrestling for the answers, and learning tons of information along the way with help from the openSUSE Community and my own curiosity, careless lack of fear, and stubborness.

One recommendation? Keep all your DATA backed up regularly using cycling backups (ie: Have separate backups about a month apart, or a week apart, or at least before any BIG Adventure, for a series of 3 or 4 rotating backups.).

Then, you can experiment to your heart’s content without fear.

In worst case, reinstalling the system and restoring your DATA from backups is a simple matter.

After awhile, you might even be able to help a lot of other users with installing, if you have done it a lot.

Keep it up!

I am looking forward to your continuing adventures! :wink:

#9

It might just be Microsoft incompetence.

If there’s a Windows update that affects booting, then the installer does some checking. And apparently Windows does not know how to check the boot path unless Windows is in charge of the booting.

#10

On 2018-06-15, nrickert <nrickert@no-mx.forums.microfocus.com> wrote:
> It might just be Microsoft incompetence.
>
> If there’s a Windows update that affects booting, then the installer
> does some checking. And apparently Windows does not know how to check
> the boot path unless Windows is in charge of the booting.

Occasionally there are Windows updates that updates the Windows Bootloader. I don’t think it’s Microsoft incompetence
that’s responsible for not recognising chainloading from GRUB2 but their (almost universally correct) assumption that it
is the only operating system present. That’s part of the reason why I think it’s best to multiboot on desktop drom
multiple hard drives. Unfortunately the same solution doesn’t apply to laptops, where invariably I have two EFI
partititions, although that comes with its own headaches.

#11

My main desktop has two hard drives. Actually, it has three hard drives, but two that I boot from.

The first hard drive has only Windows. The second hard drive has only openSUSE. There is an EFI partition on each drive. Windows boot uses the EFI partition from the first drive, while openSUSE uses the EFI partition from the second drive.

To boot Windows, I hit F12 while booting to get the firmware boot menu (BIOS boot menu) and select “Microsoft Boot Manager”.

Even, with all of this, some Windows updates fail. To get them to work, I have to make set Windows boot to be the first in UEFI boot order.

The firmware itself knows how I booted. The “bootctl” command in linux can query the firmware to find the actual boot path that I used. But Microsoft software is still confused about how I booted.

It’s Microsoft incompetence. They should be able to do better than that.

#12

… although, I am not so certain it is incompetence, but more deliberate no MS’s side because they are trying to resist people wishing to use other OS besides their own.:\

#13

One thing I do know is that MS is not listening to it’s Win10 users if the feedback pages are any indication of what users want(and mostly don’t want, the bloat and junk), and MS is completely ignoring them for what MS management and devs want users to have.

Which is why I am doing my best to get away from MS. If I keep any MS OS after I convince my wife that openSUSE is good, and she can do what he does now. Unfortunately wife won’t allow me to get rid of Win10 for the time being, so it will be dual booting and trying to NOT touch the UEFI boot system.

I will likely put WinXP Pro back on the desktop and get that big, bloated, fat, filled with junk ware, ugly Windows 10 gone for good. I have Win7, but IMO, the updates this past year have made it start and run slower, again IMO MS’s attempt to get everyone on 10.

Right now I am studying about GPT disk installs, as both laptops are UEFI. On my laptop, I pretty much think I will get along without any MS OS on it. This desktop will still have XP, W7, W10???

#14

That’s the impression I get from seeing posts about Windows 10.

Thus far, I have managed to avoid Win10, and I’m hoping to keep it that way.

Right now I am studying about GPT disk installs, as both laptops are UEFI.

There’s nothing really special about GPT, except that you don’t need a “extended partition”. The change to UEFI is larger than the change to GPT.

My experience with UEFI has been pretty good, though that’s partly a matter of luck. Some computers handle UEFI better than others. My desktop handles it poorly. But, purely by luck, I finished with a setup that works pretty well.

#15

… and, that it works on far larger HDs than MBR will.

#16

On 2018-06-16, Bill L <Bill_L@no-mx.forums.microfocus.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately wife won’t allow me to get rid of Win10 for
> the time being, so it will be dual booting and trying to NOT touch the
> UEFI boot system.

I think your wife is very sensible. It depends on what she uses the computer for but there are certain things (e.g.
Microsoft Office, full hardware support inc. printers/scanners, DirectX rendering) that can only be done within Windows
with full 100% compatibility assured. Not having access to a Windows install (remembering that you paid for it when you
bought the computer) is just a waste.

> I will likely put WinXP Pro back on the desktop and get that big,
> bloated, fat, filled with junk ware, ugly Windows 10 gone for good.

I was advise against WinXP Pro since its well beyond EOL and probably one of the least secure operating systems out
there.

> I have Win7, but IMO, the updates this past year have made it start and
> run slower, again IMO MS’s attempt to get everyone on 10.

MS isn’t Apple. All MS operating systems slow down as the cache, registry, startup processes gradually increment over
time. Changing from one Windows to another might give the impression of a speed up, but only because a fresh reinstall
would have the same effect anyway. A much solution better solution is to:

  1. Have a separate swap (Windows call its page) partition.
  2. Periodically uninstall all programs you don’t use.
  3. Run `msconfig’ to minimise the startup set to the bare essentials.

> Right now I am studying about GPT disk installs, as both laptops are
> UEFI. On my laptop, I pretty much think I will get along without any MS
> OS on it. This desktop will still have XP, W7, W10???

GPT is simpler than MBR so shouldn’t warrant too much study. It’s the new UEFI standard and therefore I would always
advise GPT over MBR on modern machines. The only restrictions you really need to know about is that Windows neither
supports EFI booting in MBR mode nor BIOS legacy booting in GPT mode.

#17

On a MSWindows machine, a separate swap partition is <very> unusual, so I’d advise against it (might throw some later tech for a loop).
Probably better is to keep what is SOP which is to have a swap <file> instead of swap <partition>
You want to make that swap file contiguous, so…

  • Only if there is very little or no contiguous free space, defrag the miles to pack them closer together (doesn’t have to be tightly packed).
  • Set the swap file to zero (or nearly so) and reboot to remove the existing swap file
  • Set the swap file to the desired size to recreate the swap file, it should be re-created automatically contiguously.

Everything else is YMMV. MSWindows even has its own system cleaning utility to remove temporary and unneeded files which mostly works (I personally found another that makes a world of difference).

TSU

#18

Me too, it’s called CCleaner,. or as I first knew it CrapCleaner, and it will uninstall some of the junk Win10 has forced on users.

#19

Stay far far away from it! If the latest Insider Previews are any indication of the Win10 future, it is Apple all over again, and IMO worse.

#20

She just uses her laptop for web and email. Very little else except to maybe backup some things to the external drive(which I mostly do anyway).
Keeping track of her Fitbit may present a problem but there is always Wine if I can’t find a Linux package for it. But then again, it is available via a browser.
And I use an Office Suite from SoftMaker(free Office 2018 as of this date) that IMO is better than MS Office, a lot easier to use, and doesn’t integrate itself deeply into the OS.
I do not own MS products except for the OS’s/

If it is used just to do backups of my iPad/iPod, and printing, since I can’t do that from Linux, then I can live with the now expired WinXP EOL and the security thing. My take on that is that XP will not be in the hackers sites as much as Win7/8/8.1/10. I could be wrong. I do know of several large companies that still use XP at some of their sites, and so far MS is supposedly ‘supporting’ it for the time being.

And again, if the later Win10 Insider Previews are an indication of Win10’s future, MS is attempting to be another Apple.